Hatchling care, and other info pleaseeee

[Meg90]

Ok.....so, I didn't know where to put this, but I figured the Greeks Section would work because that is the species I am talking about.

This is what I am thinking:

After getting Nigel, I find myself REALLY into tortoises, more so than I ever was, back when I was a kid and had my three toed boxies...

And I would really like to add to my tortoise/reptile family. I was thinking of doing this in the form of a Greek hatchling/yearling.

Now, I know that just because I can properly care for an adult Greek, hatchlings need more specific care and I just want to be sure that I can handle it.

This is what I know:
-They need to be soaked (i have read on here everything from every day, to three times a week and would love that clarified)
-They need proper heat levels at all times, and a cuttle bone offered to them at all times.
-They may need extra hides to feel secure. (and proper UV)
-Their food must be dusted w/ Calcium and vitamins every time.

I can do all of that and then some...but these are my questions:

1.) What would the diet of a hatchling be? Are there more vegetables involved, or is it like an adults diet, but a smaller quantity?
2.) Is it possible to find Jordanian Greek hatchlings? Or are most CB babies a different subspecies?
3.) How big would a female Jordanian grow? (I know males usually top out at 5.5-6 in)
4.) What is the growth rate of a healthy hatchling? (IE centimeters per month, inches per year etc---is it recommended to buy a scale, and if so, what type/how often do you weigh?)
5.) What is the average age of hatchlings on the market? And what kind of indicators do you look for, to know that one is healthy (I wasn't sure if the indicators are the same as adult tortoises)
6.) Is aspen bedding OK for Greek hatchlings? Or would bed-a-beast be more recommended to keep humidity a little higher (do hatchlings need a higher humidity?)
7.)What is the lowest night temp that is allowed for a Greek hatchling?



I realllly appreciate any input that can be given...I just found out about a show down in IL that always has lots of tortoises... (the All Animal Expo down in Wheaton) and I am going to take a few days off of work to go down and hopefully get my addition if after reading responses to this, I still think that I should.

So let me have it!

Thanks!

 

[Crazy1]

handle it.

I can do all of that and then some...but these are my questions:

1.) What would the diet of a hatchling be? Are there more vegetables involved, or is it like an adults diet, but a smaller quantity? Diet is the same only smaller quantity.
2.) Is it possible to find Jordanian Greek hatchlings? Or are most CB babies a different subspecies? Yes it is possible but you do need to know what you are looking for or a breeder that is truthful. Sometimes at the shows, I have found that breeders are not always truthful if you ask them what kind of greek it is.
3.) How big would a female Jordanian grow? (I know males usually top out at 5.5-6 in) If I remember right they get about 7 inches or so. not too big.
4.) What is the growth rate of a healthy hatchling? (IE centimeters per month, inches per year etc---is it recommended to buy a scale, and if so, what type/how often do you weigh?) Like anything growth rates vary and even within the same hatchling group. The Jackson Ratio is a good tool to use for growth rate averages. Yes I recommend a scale. I weigh my greeks, adults monthly, hatchlings weekly. Often a wight drop will indicate something is going on that you can head off before it gets really bad. I perfer a digital scale that weighs in lbs and grams. You can get an inexpensive one at wal mart. Here is a link to info on the Jackson Ratio http://www.slowcoach.org.uk/care/jackson/jackson.html
adults http://www.slowcoach.org.uk/care/jackson/jackson.html
Hatchlings: http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-799.html?highlight=Jackson+Ratio
5.) What is the average age of hatchlings on the market? And what kind of indicators do you look for, to know that one is healthy (I wasn't sure if the indicators are the same as adult tortoises) Hatchlings are much harder to spot indicators that they are sick. When they get sick they do often go downhill really fast. Like within hours. A good breeder is a better indicator of a healthy hatchling. Cost Depends where you are. Greek Hatchlings in my area of CA are going for about $150.00
6.) Is aspen bedding OK for Greek hatchlings? Or would bed-a-beast be more recommended to keep humidity a little higher (do hatchlings need a higher humidity?) I used Aspen for two different hatchlings and found it too dry where I live. I now have hatchlings on turtle carpet with some sparghanm moss in the corner to increase their humidity. to 60-70% in that area.
7.)What is the lowest night temp that is allowed for a Greek hatchling?
I keep my greek hatchlings at 70 F at night.

 

[egyptiandan]

Robyn covered it very well.

I'll just add a few things There are Jordanian greek hatchlings out there. Sometimes the breeders know what they are and sometimes not. Most people sell them as Black greeks, which are just dark Jordanians.
Without seeing adults it's very hard to tell what subspecies hatchlings are. But usually Jordanians will have some black on their plastron and the plastron will have an over-all gray haze to it, at least mine do.
All my males are 4 to 5 inches and females are 6 to 7 inches.
When you get a scale, make sure it weighs in at the most 1 gram increments. I just got a Pelouze scale and it weighs at 1 gram intervals up to 2,200g.

Danny

 

[Meg90]

Ok, so this is what I gathered:

Diet is the same, and so are the temps (my apt never goes below 72 at any time)...So that is perfect...

What are the indicators of a healthy baby? The normal stuff like clear eyes and nose, alertness, being active if there is a group....that kind?

What about when they are held? Should they go in the shell, or come out?
What if you turn them over to look at the plasteron? What should that look like? (and should they be stretching out their legs, or keeping them indrawn as a sign of health when turned over?)

I am really struck by how different baby shells look from adults. They seem to have an almost shine to then, and look pebbly in photos that I have seen. Is this the norm? What should their shell feel like?

Also, should they feel "solid" like adults are supposed to? I know it will be hard to tell, because of size and all....

I was also just hoping for another Jordanian because I know that the care can differ for the subspecies...I don't think I will ever breed...but maybe some day down the line I would try if I had a Jordan girl....

But even then, hatchlings are hard to sex I suppose, so its kind of a gamble either way...

What is the average size of the average Greek hatchling that is old enough to be sold? (length, and weight if possible) What is the average size of a yearling?

Danny---do you have any pics of a Jordanian Greek hatchling? So that I would know what one looks like? (also--if I didn't get a Jordanian, but I did get a female Greek, down the line would breeding still be an option, or are crosses a bad idea?)

 

[egyptiandan]

Yes the normal "stuff" is a good indicator of a healthy hatchling.
Hatchlings are individuals, so some will struggle and some will tuck in.
Pictures to follow and the same as the above answer
Yes it's normal. I've never been able to feel the rough all smooth to me.
No they don't feel solid like an adult does.
It depends on how large the tortoise is your buying. It's possible to guess when they are young.
Jordanians should be around 20g as hatchling that are old enough to be sold. They should be around 1 1/4" to 1 1/2"
Hard to say what size a yearling should be as that depends on many factors.
It would be a good idea not to breed them if you haven't found a female Jordanian. There are though plenty of females out there.
Here are the pictures.

Danny

 

[Crazy1]

Ah, babies are always so sweet fresh out of the egg .

 

[Meg90]

I know....oh do I know....I am contacting someone named Chris Mitchell today about what he will have at the all animal expo in IL....if he doesn't
have what I am looking for, I will prob put a deposit down on one of Danny's
babies and wait till spring...

(it works out because my bday is in january, and my two yr anni w/ my bf is in may--so maybe I can talk my way into an adorable shelled present!)

Gorgeous baby btw Danny....heart melting.

 

[Meg90]

How many square ft. should a hatchling have in its enclosure?

I measured Nigel's today, and his boxes are each 2.25 ft (27 in) by 1.33 ft (16in) across...I calculated it out to be 3 sq ft per box (if that's not right, I would love it if someone with better math skills corrected me) so he has 6 sq ft total....

Is 3 sq ft enough for a hatchling? How high should the sides of the box be as well?

Since I have four months to set up, and keep myself entertained, I figured, why not start now!

(I'm heading to the craft store, and walmart today, so i thought i would ask)

 

[egyptiandan]

3 sq. feet is just fine for right now.

Danny

 

[Meg90]

How quickly do they grow? I mean, how big will she be when I get her (approx of course...) and how big will she be in a year (average size) if I do everything correctly...

Will she require a humid hide to help with normal shell growth?

 

[Meg90]

I went to walmart today and bought the tote that I will use for Anouk's enclosure...it is just like the ones I use for Nigel, but she will only have one to roam in, instead of two, like he has.

This is my question: how high are the sides allowed to be?

The height on the tote I purchased tonight is a little over 12 inches...is that too tall for her? Will it hold in too much heat? I know that is kind of a dumb question since I use them for Nigel...But I know that hatchlings are more sensitive....

But I was reading over Siwash's old posts about his baby hermann, and someone reccomended using an under the bed box for it....those are only 6 in tall for the sides....

Is that ok? I was originally going to get one of those, but then I thought that the sides would be too short...Danny? What do you think?? (or anybody else that has hatchlings)

I just want to do what is going to be right for her...and yes, I know that I have months, but I want to nest, and I am a planner...I like to have things all set up in advance.

Any input appreciated!

 

[egyptiandan]

I do use the short sided containers when they are small. Than I move up to the tall sided (like yours) at about 2 years old.
A humid hide would be great. I have 1 yearling and she is 2 5/8" and 75g.

Danny

 

[Meg90]

Good! Ok....well, then today I will switch and get a lower sided one.
What wattage should her bulb be? I think petco is having a sale, so might as well pick one up now.

Got an edible hide last night too. (sooo cheap, and they are actually more domed than the wood ones...)

Thanks Danny. I'll get that deposit mailed out tomorrow. You'll let me know when you get it?

Oh...and are those hatchling pics above, a jordanian greek?

 

[egyptiandan]

Wattage would depend on back ground temperatures. I'd get one of each to be sure. You can always use the lower wattage in the summer and the higher wattage in the winter.

Yes the pictures are of Jordanians

I'll let you know when it gets here.

Danny

 

[Isa]

Danny,
I did not know the height of an enclosure was important. Is it ok if the height of the sides of Hermy's tort table is 16" or should I cut it a bit to 12" or less?
Thanks

 

[egyptiandan]

I basicly do it for space reasons so 16 inches is fine. It's more important the height of yours lights than the height of your enclosure.

Danny

 

[Isa]

I basicly do it for space reasons so 16 inches is fine. It's more important the height of yours lights than the height of your enclosure.

Danny

Thanks Danny
I got my fiance scared when 5 min ago I told him that maybe he would have to cut 4 or 5" of Hermy's tort table, he was not sure how he would do it because the tort table itself is very heavy. He will be very happy to know that he will not have to do it

 

[Meg90]

How far away do her lights have to be? The height of the box is six inches, and I would be using a normal clamp lamp, like the ones you get at petco (prob the 5.5 incher)...is that ok?

 

[egyptiandan]

With a MVB it needs to be at least 12 inches above the substrate. The smaller the dome width the more concentrated the heat and light.

Danny

 

[Meg90]

This is what I have on Nigel...and i was going to use one on Anouk as well.....

Zoo Med Repti Halogen Bulbs
Guaranteed to last one year, the Zoo Med Repti Halogen Bulb delivers 15% more heat, light, and UVA output than standard basking spot lamps. Premium quality bulb is engineered specifically for use with reptiles. This is not your average hardware store bulb. Offered in a variety of sizes.

How far away would one of these have to be?