Hermann's Enclosure/General Advice

[Cyrtor]

Hi all, I'm looking for advice in regards to my Hermann's (Cashew) enclosure and general care. I came across this site a couple months ago and have been reading through so much material and trying to improve, but feel direct related advice would ease me.

A bit of background, I was gifted Cashew 10 months ago when he was purchased from an exotic store that has now closed. I have the paperwork, which ranges him to be 2-3 years old, so currently 3-4 years old. The gifter let the store suggest all necessities and setup to begin. Hes currently in a 100 cm by 60 cm tortoise table that was directly on the floor, the substrate was sand based and he was fed food pellets as this is what he was raised on in the store. I have a large dome with a 150w exo terra basking bulb, which I swap out for a 100w version in the warmer seasons with the aim of being around 30 degrees basking and 15-20 degrees throughout the enclosure. For UVB, I use an Arcadia ProT5 6%. Both lights are on a timer, which allows for 13 hours on (6 a.m. on - 7 p.m. off) and I have a probe thermometer, which I left dangling at roughly mid-shell height near the basking bulb as well as a slate under the bulb for him to rest on.

After getting Cashew, I made do with what I was gifted but began researching straight away. I removed the food pellets and got him a slate to feed on to prevent as much sand as possible from getting on his food, his general food is now a mix of Frisée, Lambs lettuce, and Radicchio and occasionally I add dried petals or dandelions from the garden.

I was also getting inconsistent readings with the probe thermometer, so I bought an infrared laser thermometer to read the temps. I'm UK based and recently the weather has been very cold. A few days ago I got a reading of less than 10 degrees, he didn't really move much the following day and I have been warned to not provide hibernating conditions as he's still young. I've since moved him upstairs, where it's now ambient at 15-18 degrees throughout the enclosure at night.
I also started to research substates, as I was never really happy with the sand mix the shop provided. After a lot of research, I settled for fine-grade orchid bark, which I could not find anywhere as a pure form. I was informed that it may be under the name of fir bark, which was much easier to find. I've purchased Zoo Med RB-8E Repti Bark 100 % fir bark and swapped out the substrate. Now I'm unsure what to expect as Cashew spent the first hour or so pacing around the enclosure, which I took as just curious, but then he climbed up a rock he had never had interest in before and then got into his water bowl as if he didn't want to be on the bark maybe im looking into it too much. He also didn't really eat much that day but as of today is eating normally again. He also is no longer sleeping in his normal enclosed side of the enclosure, choosing instead to stay on the open side under a log, which isn't normal for him. I did another check last night as I was getting worried if I'd done something wrong for him, and the AI result from Google (the first thing that comes up) claims that Fir bark CANNOT be used for Hermanns but Orchid bark can, but then also states they are the same thing, so now I'm very confused.

Also, the slate I had under his basking light I buried when using the sand and the probe thermometer never read more than 30 degrees. I haven't buried it this time with the bark and left it on top. The probe thermometer is roughly 2 inches above the slate and is reading at 25 degrees, but the laser on the slate is reading at 40/45 degrees. Is this too hot for him? Should I bury the slate again or remove it all together?

Just for clarity, I took him to the exoctic vets around 6 weeks ago, who were very happy with his health, and except for a small amount of pinworms in his droppings, which doesn't require treatment, there were no concerns, so despite the pet shop being closed and therefore not much knowledge of his raising, I have no reason to worry about his health currently.

I would appreciate criticism or advice for my whole experience. I'm new to this and just want to do what's right by Cashew. I'm in the process of moving house and have every intention to provide him with a raised, longer tortoise table once we're settled. I do understand some people may suggest I get a thermostat to control the temps better, but currently I'm not in a position to do so. It is on a list though, but currently I do have to continue with the timer and adjusting positions as needed.

Apologies for the length, but I just wanted to make sure all the info is in there. Thanks from me and Cashew for reading and for any replies.

TLDR:
Is fir bark safe for Hermanns?
Is an air temperature of 25 degrees, but a floor temperature of 45 degrees too high for a basking spot?
Is it normal for Tortoises to change routine e.g. randomly not eating for a day or avoiding previously used areas of the enclosure when changes are made throughout?

*Complimentary Happy Picture*

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome. I'm so glad you found us and decided to ask your questions. It seems that you've also realized that the previous housing and heating advice wasn't great. We will be glad to help.

First and foremost you have to get this guy into a large closed chamber (aka: viv in the UK) because growing babies need warmth and humidity and there is no way to accomplish that with an open top in a cold dry room. That's like trying to heat your house in winter with no roof. It just ca't work.

Next, that dangerous dry substrate has to go. Fir bark works great. So does damp hand packed coco coir.

Here is a breakdown of the four heating and lighting essentials:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

Much more info here, and questions are welcome:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

This can all be shocking the first time you read it all, but it seems like you've eased into it already. Please feel free to argue any of this. Ask for more explanation. If anything is contradictory or doesn't make sense, give us the opportunity to explain and help you and your tortoise.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Welcome to the forum!

You were right suspecting that the set up needs some changes. Check out the threads Tom linked and ask away any questions.

 

[TammyJ]

Welcome to the forum!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hi all, I'm looking for advice in regards to my Hermann's (Cashew) enclosure and general care. I came across this site a couple months ago and have been reading through so much material and trying to improve, but feel direct related advice would ease me.

A bit of background, I was gifted Cashew 10 months ago when he was purchased from an exotic store that has now closed. I have the paperwork, which ranges him to be 2-3 years old, so currently 3-4 years old. The gifter let the store suggest all necessities and setup to begin. Hes currently in a 100 cm by 60 cm tortoise table that was directly on the floor, the substrate was sand based and he was fed food pellets as this is what he was raised on in the store. I have a large dome with a 150w exo terra basking bulb, which I swap out for a 100w version in the warmer seasons with the aim of being around 30 degrees basking and 15-20 degrees throughout the enclosure. For UVB, I use an Arcadia ProT5 6%. Both lights are on a timer, which allows for 13 hours on (6 a.m. on - 7 p.m. off) and I have a probe thermometer, which I left dangling at roughly mid-shell height near the basking bulb as well as a slate under the bulb for him to rest on.

After getting Cashew, I made do with what I was gifted but began researching straight away. I removed the food pellets and got him a slate to feed on to prevent as much sand as possible from getting on his food, his general food is now a mix of Frisée, Lambs lettuce, and Radicchio and occasionally I add dried petals or dandelions from the garden.

I was also getting inconsistent readings with the probe thermometer, so I bought an infrared laser thermometer to read the temps. I'm UK based and recently the weather has been very cold. A few days ago I got a reading of less than 10 degrees, he didn't really move much the following day and I have been warned to not provide hibernating conditions as he's still young. I've since moved him upstairs, where it's now ambient at 15-18 degrees throughout the enclosure at night.
I also started to research substates, as I was never really happy with the sand mix the shop provided. After a lot of research, I settled for fine-grade orchid bark, which I could not find anywhere as a pure form. I was informed that it may be under the name of fir bark, which was much easier to find. I've purchased Zoo Med RB-8E Repti Bark 100 % fir bark and swapped out the substrate. Now I'm unsure what to expect as Cashew spent the first hour or so pacing around the enclosure, which I took as just curious, but then he climbed up a rock he had never had interest in before and then got into his water bowl as if he didn't want to be on the bark maybe im looking into it too much. He also didn't really eat much that day but as of today is eating normally again. He also is no longer sleeping in his normal enclosed side of the enclosure, choosing instead to stay on the open side under a log, which isn't normal for him. I did another check last night as I was getting worried if I'd done something wrong for him, and the AI result from Google (the first thing that comes up) claims that Fir bark CANNOT be used for Hermanns but Orchid bark can, but then also states they are the same thing, so now I'm very confused.

Also, the slate I had under his basking light I buried when using the sand and the probe thermometer never read more than 30 degrees. I haven't buried it this time with the bark and left it on top. The probe thermometer is roughly 2 inches above the slate and is reading at 25 degrees, but the laser on the slate is reading at 40/45 degrees. Is this too hot for him? Should I bury the slate again or remove it all together?

Just for clarity, I took him to the exoctic vets around 6 weeks ago, who were very happy with his health, and except for a small amount of pinworms in his droppings, which doesn't require treatment, there were no concerns, so despite the pet shop being closed and therefore not much knowledge of his raising, I have no reason to worry about his health currently.

I would appreciate criticism or advice for my whole experience. I'm new to this and just want to do what's right by Cashew. I'm in the process of moving house and have every intention to provide him with a raised, longer tortoise table once we're settled. I do understand some people may suggest I get a thermostat to control the temps better, but currently I'm not in a position to do so. It is on a list though, but currently I do have to continue with the timer and adjusting positions as needed.

Apologies for the length, but I just wanted to make sure all the info is in there. Thanks from me and Cashew for reading and for any replies.

TLDR:
Is fir bark safe for Hermanns?
Is an air temperature of 25 degrees, but a floor temperature of 45 degrees too high for a basking spot?
Is it normal for Tortoises to change routine e.g. randomly not eating for a day or avoiding previously used areas of the enclosure when changes are made throughout?

*Complimentary Happy Picture*

View attachment 383290

Hello from a fellow uk member! First up I’m SO happy you have made your way here! I know firsthand how truly overwhelming the beginning stages of research can feel! Believe me when I say you’ll be saving yourself a whole lot of confusion by using this place as your only source of information, once more knowledgeable it’s easier to distinguish the good from the bad so you can use selective information from elsewhere, but if just starting out, I definitely suggest staying here, you can feel free to challenge members on their answers to get to the nitty gritty of any information you need. This place is made up of folks from around the world, many of whom have spent years perfecting their care for the healthiest, smoothest tortoises long term. Facebook pages, stores, breeders and most vets are all following very outdated information, stick around here and you’ll see why so many love it!!

You were right to replace the sand mix! It can be very harmful over time, I too went through a confusing time with sourcing orchid bark in the uk, everywhere tells you not to use pine bark, after doing some digging I found that most if not all of our ‘orchid bark’ is made of pine, this is because the fir trees used to make the bark they have in the US don’t originate here, however our pine bark is processed in such a way to be made safe for use(provided it’s being sold as reptile safe) to read more on this please do feel free to check out this thread I made:

Orchid bark saga

Hello folks! Hope everyone is well😁 I’m writing this because I’m very intrigued to get some input/information on where to research more into this. Last month a comment made on the forum to the effect of “Have you definitely got orchid fir bark, not pine, because they can be marketed as the...

tortoiseforum.org

For basking you want a 95f reading directly under the bulb, and make sure you are using a incandescent floodlight, no a spot bulb, they’re too harsh, I can provide links to the Arcadia and pro rep floods if you need! The rest of the enclosure should be ranging 75-80f, 70-75f is fine for night. Basking light does tend to work better off of a thermostat providing you can get the right watt and height to create the desired temperature directly underneath, what kind of monitoring do you have? 45c is definitely far too hot! You want around 38c at most!

Any ceramic heat emitters, which are none light emitting bulbs that help to make up ambient heat and night heat, DO need running on a thermostat, you simply set the temperature, plug the bulb into it and leave it on 24/7, either hand one in the middle, or if using multiple, hang them a equal distance for more even heat distribution. The probe will depend on bulb placement.

With the uv timing, every other source of information will tell you 12hours of uv. This is essentially an old fashioned rule that has stuck with a lot of keepers, it stems from the presumption that once the basking light or ambient lighting is on, ie the ‘sun’, that uv must coexist the same amount of hours. Fact is, uv rays only peak for a few hours a day, anyone with a uv meter will confirm this. No tortoise is blasted with 12 hours of uv in the wild, therefore it’s not necessary in captivity.
The uv bulbs are much more expensive to replace once their uv strength diminishes, so it’s definitely best having it on a 4 hour timer that provides them with all the uv they need, saving your bulb life.
Then some cheaper led lighting for your ambient 12-14 hour light cycle as well as the basking light on the same 12-14hrs, your ceramics will run 24/7 on a thermostat, this will all make more sense once you read the links I add. I’d suggest you get the 12% UV strength moving forward by the way! With a distance of roughly 18-20 inches from substrate.

Also yes, when changing things up in the tortoises environment and making needed tweaks, it’s normal for their routine to be out of whack, it takes time for them to settle.

With all that out of the way, I think you’ll hopefully find these housing threads I’ve made useful to go through! Now usually for a tortoise of his age I’d say you’d be fine without a closed chamber set up, but because I imagine he’s been raised quite dry for some time, I’m thinking he could benefit from some higher humidity for at least another year or two, he still looks like a baby to me.
This thread covers equipment, levels, sizing, appropriately maintaining the humidity, substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything and a really handy diet link to check out!

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

As far as maintaining a higher humidity, this includes some closed chamber options(only way to truly keep humidity where needed) that may work on a larger scale

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

If all in all you’re wanting to downscale for now as he appears smaller, skip that adult housing one and give this one a read instead, but do check out the visual inspiration thread still! If going with a greenhouse, the lower the ceiling height, whilst still allowing for recommended bulb height, the better!

Housing young Russian/Herman

Hello there! In this thread, I’m going to include some information on an effective way to tackle a starter set up/a way you can build a bigger size once your baby is an adult. I know it looks a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered, I’m happy to break down any information...

tortoiseforum.org

This just includes some general inspiration for an adult set up!

Enclosure inspiration

Howdy folks! Hope everyone is well! As you all know, I’m a big fan of making threads that cater more towards visual learners like myself, I’ve really been wanting to create a thread full of adult enclosure inspiration for a while now, I’ve managed to find some great references over time! I do...

tortoiseforum.org

Lastly, probably the most important, this one is also really good to familiarise yourself with, it’ll help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I always encourage double checking purchases on the forum too before buying

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

I hope all this helps! Take all the time you need going over stuff, always happy to try and answer any further questions once you’ve read them! Welcome to the forum

Oh just to add! Whilst still using the 6%, I’d recommend 8 hours at least, maybe more depending what the other folks think

 

[COmtnLady]

Welcome to The Forum!

 

[Cyrtor]

Hello and welcome. I'm so glad you found us and decided to ask your questions. It seems that you've also realized that the previous housing and heating advice wasn't great. We will be glad to help.

First and foremost you have to get this guy into a large closed chamber (aka: viv in the UK) because growing babies need warmth and humidity and there is no way to accomplish that with an open top in a cold dry room. That's like trying to heat your house in winter with no roof. It just ca't work.

Next, that dangerous dry substrate has to go. Fir bark works great. So does damp hand packed coco coir.

Here is a breakdown of the four heating and lighting essentials:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night. Some people in colder climates or with larger enclosures will need multiple CHEs or RHPs to spread out enough heat.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.

Much more info here, and questions are welcome:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

This can all be shocking the first time you read it all, but it seems like you've eased into it already. Please feel free to argue any of this. Ask for more explanation. If anything is contradictory or doesn't make sense, give us the opportunity to explain and help you and your tortoise.

Thanks for the reply. I'm slowly making my way through the links you sent and adjusting.

I've ordered floodlight basking bulbs following the advice here as my basking bulbs are all currently "spot."

I assure you the sand substrate is gone and fir bark is currently in use. Regarding depth, would I be aiming for around 1.5 inches deep for the bark substrate?

I'm also going to replace the 6% UVB light I have for a 12% as per recommendation.

Im planning to adjust the UVB timings as recommended by yourself and another user below, so I'll look into providing some LED lighting to simulate day and night.

I'm going to look into viv options ASAP once I have better knowledge of the space I have available in my new home. At what age or size would he be ok in a tortoise table?

Also, you mention you also like to provide them with a flat rock under their basking bulb. When referring to the temperature of the basking area, is it the surface of the stone or the air temperature that is the main concern, as I can get the air temperature to 30 degrees, but this would make the slate I use be around 50 degrees, which I can't imagine is great for him. I'm assuming it won't be as intense once I swap to a floodlight bulb instead of the current spot bulbs, though.

Thanks again for all the help. Apologies if some of my follow-up questions are answered in the links you provided. I am making my way through everything and I will be sure to keep returning here and rereading all the information, as there is a lot but it's much appreciated.

 

[Cyrtor]

Hello from a fellow uk member! First up I’m SO happy you have made your way here! I know firsthand how truly overwhelming the beginning stages of research can feel! Believe me when I say you’ll be saving yourself a whole lot of confusion by using this place as your only source of information, once more knowledgeable it’s easier to distinguish the good from the bad so you can use selective information from elsewhere, but if just starting out, I definitely suggest staying here, you can feel free to challenge members on their answers to get to the nitty gritty of any information you need. This place is made up of folks from around the world, many of whom have spent years perfecting their care for the healthiest, smoothest tortoises long term. Facebook pages, stores, breeders and most vets are all following very outdated information, stick around here and you’ll see why so many love it!!

You were right to replace the sand mix! It can be very harmful over time, I too went through a confusing time with sourcing orchid bark in the uk, everywhere tells you not to use pine bark, after doing some digging I found that most if not all of our ‘orchid bark’ is made of pine, this is because the fir trees used to make the bark they have in the US don’t originate here, however our pine bark is processed in such a way to be made safe for use(provided it’s being sold as reptile safe) to read more on this please do feel free to check out this thread I made:

Orchid bark saga

Hello folks! Hope everyone is well😁 I’m writing this because I’m very intrigued to get some input/information on where to research more into this. Last month a comment made on the forum to the effect of “Have you definitely got orchid fir bark, not pine, because they can be marketed as the...

tortoiseforum.org

For basking you want a 95f reading directly under the bulb, and make sure you are using a incandescent floodlight, no a spot bulb, they’re too harsh, I can provide links to the Arcadia and pro rep floods if you need! The rest of the enclosure should be ranging 75-80f, 70-75f is fine for night. Basking light does tend to work better off of a thermostat providing you can get the right watt and height to create the desired temperature directly underneath, what kind of monitoring do you have? 45c is definitely far too hot! You want around 38c at most!

Any ceramic heat emitters, which are none light emitting bulbs that help to make up ambient heat and night heat, DO need running on a thermostat, you simply set the temperature, plug the bulb into it and leave it on 24/7, either hand one in the middle, or if using multiple, hang them a equal distance for more even heat distribution. The probe will depend on bulb placement.

With the uv timing, every other source of information will tell you 12hours of uv. This is essentially an old fashioned rule that has stuck with a lot of keepers, it stems from the presumption that once the basking light or ambient lighting is on, ie the ‘sun’, that uv must coexist the same amount of hours. Fact is, uv rays only peak for a few hours a day, anyone with a uv meter will confirm this. No tortoise is blasted with 12 hours of uv in the wild, therefore it’s not necessary in captivity.
The uv bulbs are much more expensive to replace once their uv strength diminishes, so it’s definitely best having it on a 4 hour timer that provides them with all the uv they need, saving your bulb life.
Then some cheaper led lighting for your ambient 12-14 hour light cycle as well as the basking light on the same 12-14hrs, your ceramics will run 24/7 on a thermostat, this will all make more sense once you read the links I add. I’d suggest you get the 12% UV strength moving forward by the way! With a distance of roughly 18-20 inches from substrate.

Also yes, when changing things up in the tortoises environment and making needed tweaks, it’s normal for their routine to be out of whack, it takes time for them to settle.

With all that out of the way, I think you’ll hopefully find these housing threads I’ve made useful to go through! Now usually for a tortoise of his age I’d say you’d be fine without a closed chamber set up, but because I imagine he’s been raised quite dry for some time, I’m thinking he could benefit from some higher humidity for at least another year or two, he still looks like a baby to me.
This thread covers equipment, levels, sizing, appropriately maintaining the humidity, substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything and a really handy diet link to check out!

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

As far as maintaining a higher humidity, this includes some closed chamber options(only way to truly keep humidity where needed) that may work on a larger scale

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

If all in all you’re wanting to downscale for now as he appears smaller, skip that adult housing one and give this one a read instead, but do check out the visual inspiration thread still! If going with a greenhouse, the lower the ceiling height, whilst still allowing for recommended bulb height, the better!

Housing young Russian/Herman

Hello there! In this thread, I’m going to include some information on an effective way to tackle a starter set up/a way you can build a bigger size once your baby is an adult. I know it looks a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered, I’m happy to break down any information...

tortoiseforum.org

This just includes some general inspiration for an adult set up!

Enclosure inspiration

Howdy folks! Hope everyone is well! As you all know, I’m a big fan of making threads that cater more towards visual learners like myself, I’ve really been wanting to create a thread full of adult enclosure inspiration for a while now, I’ve managed to find some great references over time! I do...

tortoiseforum.org

Lastly, probably the most important, this one is also really good to familiarise yourself with, it’ll help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I always encourage double checking purchases on the forum too before buying

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

I hope all this helps! Take all the time you need going over stuff, always happy to try and answer any further questions once you’ve read them! Welcome to the forum

Oh just to add! Whilst still using the 6%, I’d recommend 8 hours at least, maybe more depending what the other folks think

Hi, thanks for the reply.

Glad to see I'm not the only one that had an orchid bark struggle, haha. I read through your post and it does give me comfort in what the UK labels as reptile bark going forward, thanks.

In regards to the temp monitoring, I have a probe thermometer that is directly below the basking bulb, and then I also use an infrared thermometer laser, which I use to spot check areas around the enclosure. Just to clarify, without the slate, the floor temperature (using the laser) is at 32 degrees average. I'm just unsure if providing the slate to bask on is something they like or is it not worth risking the additional heat as it goes up to 45 degrees when pointed at the slate. I do currently have spot bulbs instead of floodlights, but I have now ordered an Arcadia solar basking floodlight to replace my spot bulb following the advice from yourself and Tom, perhaps they will not cause as much heat directed purely to the slate beneath?

I do have a ceramic, non-light-producing bulb, which I used during our recent cold weather during the night and I hope to have this as a permanent fixture once I can get a thermostat.

Yeh, I was under the assumption that 12 hours of light = 12 hours of UVB. What timings would you recommend for the UVB bulb to be set to, as in, is it better as a morning thing when he's coming out to eat or a more natural setting of midday when the sun would be at its peak?

I never considered adding LED's for lighting, but definitely something I'll add when altering the UVB timings. I'll also get a 12% bulb, is there any concern in providing too much UVB? considering I have been giving him about 14 hours a day for the last 10 months? (Recent vet visit raised no concerns.)

I did look into the humidity when first doing my research and read that an average household humidity would be fine. I do soak him around twice a week for about 10 minutes and occasionally will spray the enclosure with lukewarm water, but I'll read the links you've provided and make changes accordingly.

Also, I'll definitely check out the diet guide, as I feel bad giving him the sameish things each day. I've followed the site "tortoise table" to see what treats he can have for a bit of enrichment, but in general his diet remains a mix of 3 types of salads, so thanks for that.

The adult enclosures are great to see as I am in the middle of moving, and Cashew is a focus point in terms of what is a suitable home with room for him, so a good idea of what's needed for him in a few years is good to see.

I've noticed he doesn't go into his enclosed side of the tortoise table anymore and opts to just stay under a half log I have in for him in the open side, do you think it would it be okay to remove the seperator to give him more space and move the log to underneath the solid lid to continue giving a darker area for rest or would it be best to continue giving him the option of a fully enclosed area? (I hope this makes sense haha)

Apologies if I've not responded to something mentioned or if my follow-up questions are things that are answered by your links. Im slowly making my way through it all, I'll be returning to this thread and rereading everything as there's a lot to take in. It's all much appreciated though.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

Glad to see I'm not the only one that had an orchid bark struggle, haha. I read through your post and it does give me comfort in what the UK labels as reptile bark going forward, thanks.

In regards to the temp monitoring, I have a probe thermometer that is directly below the basking bulb, and then I also use an infrared thermometer laser, which I use to spot check areas around the enclosure. Just to clarify, without the slate, the floor temperature (using the laser) is at 32 degrees average. I'm just unsure if providing the slate to bask on is something they like or is it not worth risking the additional heat as it goes up to 45 degrees when pointed at the slate. I do currently have spot bulbs instead of floodlights, but I have now ordered an Arcadia solar basking floodlight to replace my spot bulb following the advice from yourself and Tom, perhaps they will not cause as much heat directed purely to the slate beneath?

I do have a ceramic, non-light-producing bulb, which I used during our recent cold weather during the night and I hope to have this as a permanent fixture once I can get a thermostat.

Yeh, I was under the assumption that 12 hours of light = 12 hours of UVB. What timings would you recommend for the UVB bulb to be set to, as in, is it better as a morning thing when he's coming out to eat or a more natural setting of midday when the sun would be at its peak?

I never considered adding LED's for lighting, but definitely something I'll add when altering the UVB timings. I'll also get a 12% bulb, is there any concern in providing too much UVB? considering I have been giving him about 14 hours a day for the last 10 months? (Recent vet visit raised no concerns.)

I did look into the humidity when first doing my research and read that an average household humidity would be fine. I do soak him around twice a week for about 10 minutes and occasionally will spray the enclosure with lukewarm water, but I'll read the links you've provided and make changes accordingly.

Also, I'll definitely check out the diet guide, as I feel bad giving him the sameish things each day. I've followed the site "tortoise table" to see what treats he can have for a bit of enrichment, but in general his diet remains a mix of 3 types of salads, so thanks for that.

The adult enclosures are great to see as I am in the middle of moving, and Cashew is a focus point in terms of what is a suitable home with room for him, so a good idea of what's needed for him in a few years is good to see.

I've noticed he doesn't go into his enclosed side of the tortoise table anymore and opts to just stay under a half log I have in for him in the open side, do you think it would it be okay to remove the seperator to give him more space and move the log to underneath the solid lid to continue giving a darker area for rest or would it be best to continue giving him the option of a fully enclosed area? (I hope this makes sense haha)

Apologies if I've not responded to something mentioned or if my follow-up questions are things that are answered by your links. Im slowly making my way through it all, I'll be returning to this thread and rereading everything as there's a lot to take in. It's all much appreciated though.

No problem! I’d suggest giving the flood bulb a go with the slate and see what it reaches, spots are definitely more intense so hopefully it’ll do the job, if it’s getting to the 40’s still, is there room to raise the bulb slightly?

For the uvb timing, monitor when you’re noticing your guy likes to bask and time it for about 4hours from there, most tend to have it from 12 in the afternoon till 4

There’s no concern in providing to much uvb as far as I’m aware, it’s more that it’s not particularly natural for them, so at worst probably a bit annoying, but mainly it’s about draining the expensive bulbs unnecessarily when there’s cheaper options for ambient lighting.

Yeah for this species as adults room humidity is fine, though it does still need maintaining in the enclosure as you don’t ever want to keep them bone dry. The reason we’re recommending higher for now is because it seems from a drier start, your guy looks potentially a bit behind growth wise, higher humidity will help aid in some smoother growth moving forward.

Yep I see no issue in removing the divider for now! Might make him more inclined to use the area

Yes take all the time you need, I know it can feel a lot to go over at first, we’ll always be on hand to help further when you’re ready!

 

[Tinkerbellsmummy]

Hi all, I'm looking for advice in regards to my Hermann's (Cashew) enclosure and general care. I came across this site a couple months ago and have been reading through so much material and trying to improve, but feel direct related advice would ease me.

A bit of background, I was gifted Cashew 10 months ago when he was purchased from an exotic store that has now closed. I have the paperwork, which ranges him to be 2-3 years old, so currently 3-4 years old. The gifter let the store suggest all necessities and setup to begin. Hes currently in a 100 cm by 60 cm tortoise table that was directly on the floor, the substrate was sand based and he was fed food pellets as this is what he was raised on in the store. I have a large dome with a 150w exo terra basking bulb, which I swap out for a 100w version in the warmer seasons with the aim of being around 30 degrees basking and 15-20 degrees throughout the enclosure. For UVB, I use an Arcadia ProT5 6%. Both lights are on a timer, which allows for 13 hours on (6 a.m. on - 7 p.m. off) and I have a probe thermometer, which I left dangling at roughly mid-shell height near the basking bulb as well as a slate under the bulb for him to rest on.

After getting Cashew, I made do with what I was gifted but began researching straight away. I removed the food pellets and got him a slate to feed on to prevent as much sand as possible from getting on his food, his general food is now a mix of Frisée, Lambs lettuce, and Radicchio and occasionally I add dried petals or dandelions from the garden.

I was also getting inconsistent readings with the probe thermometer, so I bought an infrared laser thermometer to read the temps. I'm UK based and recently the weather has been very cold. A few days ago I got a reading of less than 10 degrees, he didn't really move much the following day and I have been warned to not provide hibernating conditions as he's still young. I've since moved him upstairs, where it's now ambient at 15-18 degrees throughout the enclosure at night.
I also started to research substates, as I was never really happy with the sand mix the shop provided. After a lot of research, I settled for fine-grade orchid bark, which I could not find anywhere as a pure form. I was informed that it may be under the name of fir bark, which was much easier to find. I've purchased Zoo Med RB-8E Repti Bark 100 % fir bark and swapped out the substrate. Now I'm unsure what to expect as Cashew spent the first hour or so pacing around the enclosure, which I took as just curious, but then he climbed up a rock he had never had interest in before and then got into his water bowl as if he didn't want to be on the bark maybe im looking into it too much. He also didn't really eat much that day but as of today is eating normally again. He also is no longer sleeping in his normal enclosed side of the enclosure, choosing instead to stay on the open side under a log, which isn't normal for him. I did another check last night as I was getting worried if I'd done something wrong for him, and the AI result from Google (the first thing that comes up) claims that Fir bark CANNOT be used for Hermanns but Orchid bark can, but then also states they are the same thing, so now I'm very confused.

Also, the slate I had under his basking light I buried when using the sand and the probe thermometer never read more than 30 degrees. I haven't buried it this time with the bark and left it on top. The probe thermometer is roughly 2 inches above the slate and is reading at 25 degrees, but the laser on the slate is reading at 40/45 degrees. Is this too hot for him? Should I bury the slate again or remove it all together?

Just for clarity, I took him to the exoctic vets around 6 weeks ago, who were very happy with his health, and except for a small amount of pinworms in his droppings, which doesn't require treatment, there were no concerns, so despite the pet shop being closed and therefore not much knowledge of his raising, I have no reason to worry about his health currently.

I would appreciate criticism or advice for my whole experience. I'm new to this and just want to do what's right by Cashew. I'm in the process of moving house and have every intention to provide him with a raised, longer tortoise table once we're settled. I do understand some people may suggest I get a thermostat to control the temps better, but currently I'm not in a position to do so. It is on a list though, but currently I do have to continue with the timer and adjusting positions as needed.

Apologies for the length, but I just wanted to make sure all the info is in there. Thanks from me and Cashew for reading and for any replies.

TLDR:
Is fir bark safe for Hermanns?
Is an air temperature of 25 degrees, but a floor temperature of 45 degrees too high for a basking spot?
Is it normal for Tortoises to change routine e.g. randomly not eating for a day or avoiding previously used areas of the enclosure when changes are made throughout?

*Complimentary Happy Picture*

View attachment 383290

Hey, here's some bits of advice as I'm in the UK too and have a Hermanns who's very healthy and content.

Regarding the slate, you should never put it under any heat source as it can burn your tortoise badly. They only need the slate to eat from, to file beak and nails not to bask so feel free to move it away.
Bark unfortunately can be lethal if ingested, way worse than sand so I recommend you replace it with a couple of bags of top soil, either Wickes own brand (£2.50) or Westland top soil you can buy any garden centres, sainsburys or even Amazon. They love to dig down, bury themselves in soil to sleep which is not cause for any concern, it's just their naturalistic behaviour protecting themselves from predators and regulating their temperature.

Regarding lights, your 6% UVB isn't enough unfortunately you'll need a minimum 12% 24w for them to be healthy and avoid Metabolic Bone Disease. The basking lamp if you have a 100w should give you ideal temps of 32° if placed 30cm above shell level but you can move that and experiment until you get the temps right.
The probe should be buried in the soil and left sticking out right under the lamp to give correct reading.

Finally, tortoises absolutely hate change so it's normal for them to be grumpy for a couple of days after change in substrate or anything within the enclosure. This can include hunger strike, pacing, climbing walls or just hiding away and ignoring you. They are little buggers so don't take it personally.

Never use Google or ai to get your info as in this situation it can be about life and death. Go instead on the Tortoise Trust website which has scientifically based information with hundreds of articles so basically everything you'll ever need to know.

Good luck and chill, you're clearly trying your best which is way more than some tortoise owners are doing out there.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hey, here's some bits of advice as I'm in the UK too and have a Hermanns who's very healthy and content.

Regarding the slate, you should never put it under any heat source as it can burn your tortoise badly. They only need the slate to eat from, to file beak and nails not to bask so feel free to move it away.
Bark unfortunately can be lethal if ingested, way worse than sand so I recommend you replace it with a couple of bags of top soil, either Wickes own brand (£2.50) or Westland top soil you can buy any garden centres, sainsburys or even Amazon. They love to dig down, bury themselves in soil to sleep which is not cause for any concern, it's just their naturalistic behaviour protecting themselves from predators and regulating their temperature.

Regarding lights, your 6% UVB isn't enough unfortunately you'll need a minimum 12% 24w for them to be healthy and avoid Metabolic Bone Disease. The basking lamp if you have a 100w should give you ideal temps of 32° if placed 30cm above shell level but you can move that and experiment until you get the temps right.
The probe should be buried in the soil and left sticking out right under the lamp to give correct reading.

Finally, tortoises absolutely hate change so it's normal for them to be grumpy for a couple of days after change in substrate or anything within the enclosure. This can include hunger strike, pacing, climbing walls or just hiding away and ignoring you. They are little buggers so don't take it personally.

Never use Google or ai to get your info as in this situation it can be about life and death. Go instead on the Tortoise Trust website which has scientifically based information with hundreds of articles so basically everything you'll ever need to know.

Good luck and chill, you're clearly trying your best which is way more than some tortoise owners are doing out there.

All good advice barring the top soil, top soils aren’t recommended as unless you’ve composted it yourself, there’s no knowing what kind have plants have gone into it, could be something toxic, if wanting to go the ‘soil’ route, it’s best getting coco coir

 

[Tinkerbellsmummy]

All good advice barring the top soil, top soils aren’t recommended as unless you’ve composted it yourself, there’s no knowing what kind have plants have gone into it, could be something toxic, if wanting to go the ‘soil’ route, it’s best getting coco coir

Disagree sorry, the two I recommended are definitely safe while I know others aren't. Maybe do some research before advising people against soil. X

 

[Cyrtor]

No problem! I’d suggest giving the flood bulb a go with the slate and see what it reaches, spots are definitely more intense so hopefully it’ll do the job, if it’s getting to the 40’s still, is there room to raise the bulb slightly?

For the uvb timing, monitor when you’re noticing your guy likes to bask and time it for about 4hours from there, most tend to have it from 12 in the afternoon till 4

There’s no concern in providing to much uvb as far as I’m aware, it’s more that it’s not particularly natural for them, so at worst probably a bit annoying, but mainly it’s about draining the expensive bulbs unnecessarily when there’s cheaper options for ambient lighting.

Yeah for this species as adults room humidity is fine, though it does still need maintaining in the enclosure as you don’t ever want to keep them bone dry. The reason we’re recommending higher for now is because it seems from a drier start, your guy looks potentially a bit behind growth wise, higher humidity will help aid in some smoother growth moving forward.

Yep I see no issue in removing the divider for now! Might make him more inclined to use the area

Yes take all the time you need, I know it can feel a lot to go over at first, we’ll always be on hand to help further when you’re ready!

Yeh, that makes sense. I've moved the slate for now and will try again when I have the floodlight. He seems to love being on it, so I'll just slowly reintroduce it and keep monitoring the temperature of it to find the best spot without it being a risk for him.

Ahh, okay, good to know. I've got a 12% UVB due to arrive any day, so I will get it swapped out and a timer set appropriately. You're not wrong with the cost of them, It would be good if this preserves some life out the bulb down the line.

The picture I used is a little old I maybe should have mentioned it's just a great pic of him haha, I've attached new ones to show his current size, but I do take on board the concerns of humidity and will work on this.

Nice, I wasn't sure if they may NEED a closed-off area as most enclosures I've seen provide this for resting, bit of a waste now he's decided to not use that entire side though, but with his log and the solid lid on that side it should be dark enough for him. Thanks for confirming.

Wish I had just messaged here from day one haha, thanks again.

 

[Cyrtor]

Hey, here's some bits of advice as I'm in the UK too and have a Hermanns who's very healthy and content.

Regarding the slate, you should never put it under any heat source as it can burn your tortoise badly. They only need the slate to eat from, to file beak and nails not to bask so feel free to move it away.
Bark unfortunately can be lethal if ingested, way worse than sand so I recommend you replace it with a couple of bags of top soil, either Wickes own brand (£2.50) or Westland top soil you can buy any garden centres, sainsburys or even Amazon. They love to dig down, bury themselves in soil to sleep which is not cause for any concern, it's just their naturalistic behaviour protecting themselves from predators and regulating their temperature.

Regarding lights, your 6% UVB isn't enough unfortunately you'll need a minimum 12% 24w for them to be healthy and avoid Metabolic Bone Disease. The basking lamp if you have a 100w should give you ideal temps of 32° if placed 30cm above shell level but you can move that and experiment until you get the temps right.
The probe should be buried in the soil and left sticking out right under the lamp to give correct reading.

Finally, tortoises absolutely hate change so it's normal for them to be grumpy for a couple of days after change in substrate or anything within the enclosure. This can include hunger strike, pacing, climbing walls or just hiding away and ignoring you. They are little buggers so don't take it personally.

Never use Google or ai to get your info as in this situation it can be about life and death. Go instead on the Tortoise Trust website which has scientifically based information with hundreds of articles so basically everything you'll ever need to know.

Good luck and chill, you're clearly trying your best which is way more than some tortoise owners are doing out there.

Hi, thanks for your response.

I have now moved the slate and will work on finding a better place for it as he does seem to really like chilling on it, but I do agree the temperature was concerning. I just wasn't aware how hardy they are with heat, but as yourself and others have said, it's not a suitable surface to be that hot for him.

I'm not trying to argue or anything, but I will say you're one of the first I've come across to suggest topsoil, as many of the threads I've read have the same concerns as 'Littleredfootbigredheard' mentioned as well as potential mold issues. I was thinking about maybe doing a coconut coir substrate in the future but have been told this can get messy. I will do some more research into topsoil, but to my memory it wasn't very favorable.

I have also ordered an Arcadia D3 12% T5 UVB Bulb to replace my 6% and will get that replaced ASAP. It also seems I'm using my probe incorrectly, as I've just been letting it dangle around 2 inches above the substrate under the basking bulb, but I shall attempt your method and see what readings I get, as with the laser on the substrate I get around 30 degrees, but the probe 2 inches above is around 24/25, so I need to figure this one out and get it adjusted.

Glad to know its just my tort being a stubborn guy haha I was worried when he didn't eat but have been monitoring and hes slowly back to normal again, noted to not take it personally in future haha.

Thanks again for the advice. I assure you any future issues or questions will either be raised here or with my exoctic vet rather than scrolling pages and pages on Google.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Yeh, that makes sense. I've moved the slate for now and will try again when I have the floodlight. He seems to love being on it, so I'll just slowly reintroduce it and keep monitoring the temperature of it to find the best spot without it being a risk for him.

Ahh, okay, good to know. I've got a 12% UVB due to arrive any day, so I will get it swapped out and a timer set appropriately. You're not wrong with the cost of them, It would be good if this preserves some life out the bulb down the line.

The picture I used is a little old I maybe should have mentioned it's just a great pic of him haha, I've attached new ones to show his current size, but I do take on board the concerns of humidity and will work on this.

Nice, I wasn't sure if they may NEED a closed-off area as most enclosures I've seen provide this for resting, bit of a waste now he's decided to not use that entire side though, but with his log and the solid lid on that side it should be dark enough for him. Thanks for confirming.

Wish I had just messaged here from day one haha, thanks again.
View attachment 383403View attachment 383404

Oh he’s gorgeous! Sounds like you’re going to do any changes that need doing which is wonderful! It’s always lovely seeing how dedicated people are with their torts
I too wish I’d used this place as my first port of call, would have saved us soooo much confusion years backglad you’re apart of the community now, we all love checking in on one another to make sure our torts are doing well

 

[Polkadot]

Hi, thanks for your response.

I have now moved the slate and will work on finding a better place for it as he does seem to really like chilling on it, but I do agree the temperature was concerning. I just wasn't aware how hardy they are with heat, but as yourself and others have said, it's not a suitable surface to be that hot for him.

I'm not trying to argue or anything, but I will say you're one of the first I've come across to suggest topsoil, as many of the threads I've read have the same concerns as 'Littleredfootbigredheard' mentioned as well as potential mold issues. I was thinking about maybe doing a coconut coir substrate in the future but have been told this can get messy. I will do some more research into topsoil, but to my memory it wasn't very favorable.

I have also ordered an Arcadia D3 12% T5 UVB Bulb to replace my 6% and will get that replaced ASAP. It also seems I'm using my probe incorrectly, as I've just been letting it dangle around 2 inches above the substrate under the basking bulb, but I shall attempt your method and see what readings I get, as with the laser on the substrate I get around 30 degrees, but the probe 2 inches above is around 24/25, so I need to figure this one out and get it adjusted.

Glad to know its just my tort being a stubborn guy haha I was worried when he didn't eat but have been monitoring and hes slowly back to normal again, noted to not take it personally in future haha.

Thanks again for the advice. I assure you any future issues or questions will either be raised here or with my exoctic vet rather than scrolling pages and pages on Google.

I wouldn’t bother with the Wickes topsoil, or any top soil for that matter. It’s a lucky dip what you get inside. I’ve picked out glass, plastics, rope, bits of brick, odd clumps of coal looking stuff, stones. Just not worth the hassle. In the UK top soil is regularly bought from the builders where they have dug out soil for foundation work, not suitable as a pet bedding.

Look on Swell Reptiles, they sell coco coir either bagged loose or you can go cheaper and buy the bricks and hydrate them yourself in buckets of water. Last order I made, I filled a huge viv for around £30 15 bricks. Lasts forever if you spot clean regularly and isn’t filled with rubbish.

As for the mess, yes it can be sticky and will get on the food but you can get around that by using a large slate and surrounding it by bark or stones so that the tort doesn’t drag too much onto it.

Other option is to put a thin layer underneath bark, that way you get the water retention benefits of the coir and the cleanliness of the bark.

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

I wouldn’t bother with the Wickes topsoil, or any top soil for that matter. It’s a lucky dip what you get inside. I’ve picked out glass, plastics, rope, bits of brick, odd clumps of coal looking stuff, stones. Just not worth the hassle. In the UK top soil is regularly bought from the builders where they have dug out soil for foundation work, not suitable as a pet bedding.

Look on Swell Reptiles, they sell coco coir either bagged loose or you can go cheaper and buy the bricks and hydrate them yourself in buckets of water. Last order I made, I filled a huge viv for around £30 15 bricks. Lasts forever if you spot clean regularly and isn’t filled with rubbish.

As for the mess, yes it can be sticky and will get on the food but you can get around that by using a large slate and surrounding it by bark or stones so that the tort doesn’t drag too much onto it.

Other option is to put a thin layer underneath bark, that way you get the water retention benefits of the coir and the cleanliness of the bark.

I agree, I wouldn't trust them 100%, and in my opinion it is not worth the risk.

 

[Cyrtor]

I wouldn’t bother with the Wickes topsoil, or any top soil for that matter. It’s a lucky dip what you get inside. I’ve picked out glass, plastics, rope, bits of brick, odd clumps of coal looking stuff, stones. Just not worth the hassle. In the UK top soil is regularly bought from the builders where they have dug out soil for foundation work, not suitable as a pet bedding.

Look on Swell Reptiles, they sell coco coir either bagged loose or you can go cheaper and buy the bricks and hydrate them yourself in buckets of water. Last order I made, I filled a huge viv for around £30 15 bricks. Lasts forever if you spot clean regularly and isn’t filled with rubbish.

As for the mess, yes it can be sticky and will get on the food but you can get around that by using a large slate and surrounding it by bark or stones so that the tort doesn’t drag too much onto it.

Other option is to put a thin layer underneath bark, that way you get the water retention benefits of the coir and the cleanliness of the bark.

Thanks for the suggestions, all fair points. I think for now I'm going to remain on just the bark, as he's now got past his grumpy stage and seems to be settling in nicely to the new substrate. I've also been reading a lot about people's experiences with topsoil, and although some do say it's fine, a lot have had issues, so I agree it's just not worth the risk. Should I have concerns in the future, substrate-wise, I think I will go for coconut coir and create a clean area for his food and water as you suggested. Thanks again.

 

[Tinkerbellsmummy]

Dear @Cyrtor, @Polkadot and @The_Four_Toed_Edward,

Regarding substrate..... I'm not the one to advise anything off the top of my head as I base my knowledge on science based research and personally do everything I can to mimic my tortoises natural habitat. It does boil my blood when people simply put together a PowerPoint and share it as facts with new owners who don't yet know any better.
Please see the RESEARCH regarding soil as substrate. Also, just out of interest, how on earth do you think a Mediterranean tortoise would live on orchid bark in the wild????

Tortoise Trust Web - Understanding Vivarium Substrates

Tortoise Trust Web - A site dedicated to the conservation and captive care of Chelonia

www.tortoisetrust.org

Also:

**Substrates for Tortoises**

***Disclaimer***

If you find this interesting and want to share this post with others please direct them to the group . I have spent hours of my time researching and reading to be able to give this group some informative evidence based information



Unfortunately, there are many manufactured substrates on the general market which are aimed at reptile keepers however the majority of them, the suitability can be questioned massively. On typing “Substrate for Hermann’s Tortoise” into Google I yielded 125,000 results back (20th January 2021). With the most common substrate jumping out at me from the screen being “ProRep Tortoise Life Substrate” which we know has caused many issues within the tortoise community. I will discuss further down in this article.

A key point which I feel is important is Wegehaupt (2018) states “We must do everything we can to conserve these irreplaceable terrestrial vertebrates, which are the oldest on earth. We must be Guided by Nature in creating sympathetic habitats for captive tortoises that allow them to live in ways that nature intended”. Sadly, I have not had the opportunity to visit a natural habitat of Hermann’s tortoise. YET ... However hopefully in the next few years I would like to do some observations of them. So, as I have not been, it relies on using reliable books which show the natural habitats and looking at images taken by members of the tortoise community which have been.

Another important point that I feel I should raise is: our aims are to provide the best for the tortoise(s), not put our thoughts and our preferences in the way of this. Sometimes it can be common to hear keepers saying. Soil is messy. My tortoise has been on X so many years and all fine. Just because you are keeping in a particular way for X years doesn’t mean that you have been doing it correctly. I often feel some people use the tortoise as some kind of excuse? My tortoise doesn’t like soil? How has the keeper come to this idea? Or is it actually the keeper which doesn’t like the soil and trying to palm it off on the tortoise? Just something to think about there?

As there are different subspecies of Hermann’s they vary in their locations; however, they can be found “throughout the entire European portion of the Mediterranean to the Black Sea (Wegehaupt, 2018). Vetter (2006) gives some specific locations of Hermann’s such as; Northeast Spain (Catalonia) Southern West France, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, European part of Turkey in the East and numerous islands in the Mediterranean Islands.
As you can see, they do cover a large area, so with this the natural habitat will vary. Vetter (2006) gives us a good description so we can imagine the kind of habitats they are living within. He states “Testudo Hermanni Species complex inhabit a rather wide range of arid to submesic Mediterranean habitats. These include sandy heathlands, vegetated dunes, open wooden country, the margins of forests, rocky slopes and scrublands such as maquis or garrigue.”

In captivity, many keepers are using natural substrates of soil. Some people will use garden soil; however, Smith (2016) does give a word of warning mentioning that “You cannot be sure in these modern times that it has not become contaminated with something nasty”. – Which would involve poisons, pests, toxic plant matter, bacterial/ fungal or viral infections. However, this could be argued as we do not know exactly the ingredients and contents of many of the shop bought topsoil that we use within keeping. Smith (2016) has acknowledged that some keepers have suggested microwaving it to sterilise the soil, however his take on it is that it will also “kill of the essential microbial life”.

Furthermore, many shops such as Wickes, B&Q, Homebase, Wilkos and garden centres will stock Topsoil. It is important that not just any Topsoil is used, we need to ensure that it does not have any additional fertilisers or chemicals within these products. There are some images circulating on many Tortoise forums including Hermann’s Tortoises UK – However I would always urge keepers to check the front and back of the packaging - as the collages of soils may not always be up to date, as manufactures may change ingredients at any point. You will often mention that these soils mention “Organic Matter” this should cause no issues. All soils have this in, including the soil we have in our garden. Smith (2016) explains that soil “contains a wealth of different sources of organic matter. This, of course is made up from plant debris, decaying animals and faecal matter, amongst other local, windblown and flood born organics. I am also booked into a webinar conference at the beginning of February to learn more about the components of soils and around the organic matter, so I will likely come and edit this post and add any more information I learn here ❤

I have been in contact with Westlands directly and they informed me that “We do not add any fertilizers to it however we do not make it nor have we tested it for use in tortoise houses, only as a garden soil improver… We can advise the use of Westland Topsoil or our Irish Moss Peat for tortoise enclosures. We can recommend these products as they do not contain any chemicals, fertilisers or anything harmful to animals” (Taylor, A., [email protected], 2021. Soil Ingredients (Email) Message to Westland Horticulture ([email protected]) Sent Wednesday 20th January 2021: 11;01. Available at: https://outlook.live.com/mail/0/arc...4LTNkODctMDACLTAwCgAQAHdchYTBoJBJu7rjle4LIV8=)

I would think that peat would be best used outside as some do report peat having quite a strong smell to it, so many not be the most pleasant if your tortoise is in an indoor set up. You you could also consider the sustainability of peat on the environment and that there are organisations out there are actually trying to get the government to ban these products however DEFRA have not placed a ban on it yet (Garden Organic , 2020)

I have also been in direct contact with Levingtons around there “Levingtons Essentials Topsoil 35L”. They have explained that “This product is a mix of peat 30%, topsoil and green compost. There is no added fertiliser or trace elements…Please be aware that there are rare occasions that Green compost contains foreign items such as plastic, metals and stones. This is due to careless people disposing inappropriate materials with their garden materials. We do carry out extensive screening and quality checks on all of products and every year we successfully remove thousands of tons of unwanted materials” (Taylor, A., [email protected] , 2021. Soil Ingredients (Email) Message to Evergreen Garden Care ([email protected]) Sent 27th January 2021; 10:00. Available at: https://outlook.live.com/mail/0/arc...4LTNkODctMDACLTAwCgAQAAQkgTT7blNIkz4jJDrotcQ=)

They mentioned “Green compost” however on the packaging it mentions about the “high organic matter content” and “rich, fertile, loam-based soil”, so I believe they have used the word “compost” to describe the “organic matter”. So, this would be another suitable soil.

I have tried to get in contact regarding confirmation of their Wickes Sterilised Topsoil, however this has been used for years now – I have used it for the past 8-9yrs and haven’t noticed any difference in wording on the packaging. There is no mention of chemicals or fertilisers added however I will get Wickes to mention that in email for me, so we have actual evidence. I am also waiting back confirmation from another few soil suppliers to find some more suitable soils. When I have had correspondence, I shall update this post.

Highfield A. (2001-2008) from Tortoise Trust state that “The substrate that we have found to be the most effective and safest by far consist of a mixed loam compost base mixed with varying amounts of soft (play) sand”. Highfield A. (2001-2008) also acknowledges that some keepers have raised issues in terms of possibility of ingestion. However, he has not had an issue despite using for several years and also reminds us that “many of these species live on an almost pure sand substrate for there entire lives in nature!”

A lot of keepers have also been using coco fibre, there are a few different names to this product such as: coco brick, coco block, coco coir, coco soil and coco substrate. There are many different manufactures which sell this. Coco coir is a natural fibre extract from coconut husk it comes in a few forms such as in compressed blocks which then need to be soaked in water so it expands it’s a light fluffy substrate. However, it is also possible to buy is bags which has already been soaked and ready to use. Some keepers will use this solely on its own, and others will decide to mix it in with topsoil. Again, some stores such as Poundland and Wilko will sell these products during the summer they should contain any additives but if you are unsure, it would also be best to contact the manufacture and ask them. I have recently been in contact with Wilkos about there “Wilko Coco Coir Potting Compost” as there were some people unsure if contains chemicals however, I was able to get a reply back which stated “Our quality team have confirmed that the Wilko Coco Potting Compost 40L is coco coir and does not have any chemicals added” (Taylor, A., [email protected]. 2021. Product Enquiry (Email) Message To Wilko ([email protected]) Sent 20th January 2021 : 18:12. Available at : https://outlook.live.com/mail/0/arc...4LTNkODctMDACLTAwCgAQAJlYS17cp0OdveRJiEaNXMs=

A few members have raised issues about its flammability, however personally I cannot see how the fibres will catch alight if they are damp and that the heat source is a suitable height away from the substrate and is being controlled.

Often people will ask “How much soil do I need?”, well you are going to require enough for the tortoise to be able to dig and bury under the soil for effective thermoregulation.

UNSUITABLE SUBSTRATES:
As mentioned at the beginning there are numerous of unsuitable substrates many of which are labelled up and state “Tortoise” on the packaging. The biggest one being Tortoise Life / Tortoise Terrian. There are quite a few different manufacturers of this product which include ProRep , Pets at Home and also Komodo. ProRep (N.dA) describe the substrate as " a 50:50 mixture of high-quality topsoil and play sand with a little limestone grit added to provide some calcium if the substrate is eaten”. This is the big issue … When the substrate is eaten, this is when it has been known to cause injury and death within tortoises. It would seem this “limestone grit” get impacted within the gastrointestinal tract as shown in the below link. This link is from North Somerset Reptile Rescue, of which the owner is an exotic vet specialist. You will see in the Xray images taken: a tortoise’s gastrointestinal tract full of the limestone chippings and grit ☹ It was also suffering with a very large bladder stone which then ended up leading to this tortoise being put to sleep.

https://www.facebook.com/northsomersetreptilerescue1/posts/932417233634334

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Another substrate that is completely unsuitable and has caused injuries and deaths is hemp. This is often sold by ProRep. ProRep (N.dB) describe it as a “soft, fibrous substrate that is suitable for many species of snakes and tortoise as well as small animals. It is made from the dried chopped stem of the hemp plant to form a highly absorbent, dust free and odourless material. Being completely biodegradable it is safe if eaten.” Again, we are faced with that’s the issue if the animal then eats. Sadly, it has killed and on a particular tortoise a post-mortem was sought after the death of the tortoise and concluded that a piece of hemp has been ingested and passed through the wall of the gut. There is a case study which can be found about the tortoise which passed away on The Tortoise Trust Website under; Hemp Beddding and Substrates for Tortoises - Danger Warning: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/hemp.htm

Another substrate which again is not suitable is Herbifloor. Pets at home will often sell this and on the packaging, it is labelled up as “This compressed grass pellet is a perfect substrate for tortoises, iguanas and many other larger reptiles”. The biggest fear with this substrate is when it gets wet then surly the grass pellet is going to lose its compressed form and expand as it soaks up water / urine which is going to harbour bacteria, also I would also fear about the risk of mould spores developing on this grass pellet when wet which obviously is going to increase the risk of the tortoise developing respiratory issues being exposed to mould spores. It should also be mentioned that these are a loose substrate so when walked on may roll around under the tortoise feet. Rossi, V, J (2019) mentions how loose substrates may lead to lead to splay leg in young tortoises.
Other substrates I have seen mentioned on various care sheets for tortoises include newspaper, AstroTurf, wood shavings, woodchips and edible bedding – None of these are suitable. None allow the tortoise to exhibit natural behaviour’s such as digging, a tortoise cannot dig effectively with any of those, neither can they thermoregulate which is vital.

References:

Garden Organic, 2020. DEFRA delays again on peat ban (Online) Available at: https://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/news/defra-delays-again-peat-ban (Accessed 27th January 2021)

Highfield, C, A. 2001-2008. Understanding Vivarium Substrates (Online) Available at: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/substrates.html (Accessed 27th January 2021)

ProRep N.dA. Tortoise Life (Online) Available at: Tortoise Life – ProRep (pro-rep.co.u k) (Accessed 27th January 2021)

ProRep N.dB. Hemp Bedding (Online) Available at: Hemp Bedding – ProRep (pro-rep.co.u k) (Accessed 27th January 2021)

Rossi, V, J. General Husbandry and Management .2019. Mader's Reptile and Amphibian Medicine and Surgery. 3rd ed.

Smith, C, S. 2016. The Arcadia Guide to Bio-Activity and The Theory of Wild Re-Creation.

Vetter, H. 2006. Hermann's Tortoises: Boettger's and Dalmatian Tortoises.

Wegehaupt, W., 2018. Mediterranean Tortoises; Where and how they live in the wild.

 

[chigs184]

I don't have time to read the whole thread right now, but did you get a vivarium? I struggled to find a suitable one when looking for one in England, but I ended up using a place called Viperia. I had a few problems in regards of the time it took to be delivered, but they were changing location or something. But it's really well made and would highly recommend you look there.