"High White"

Kapidolo Farms

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"sorry, no more pictures..
They can be seen and picked up in vista, ca.
If I take pictures of tortoises that means I will have to keep track of who is who which I do not desire to do so....
In most cases at this age the lightness of any shell means nothing. 80% of color will be dictated by diet and 20% by genetics... people will argue that point."

This is a response by Chris Estep/Toucan Jungle to an image request for Leopards advertised on Fauna classifieds 7 Sep 2014.

So what is this debate? Chris has not responded to my inquiry. I was hoping one of you Leo folks could suggest what he might be getting at or what you have sorted out for yourself. I have heard a few things over the years, but usually by people who also liked pyramided animals, because they look so cool.
 

tortadise

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High white? So new growth? That's all I get from high white, blonde, lemon lollipop, cream sickle etc... Yah know the whole sunset orange type deal?
 

Yvonne G

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The babies that come from my adult leopard tortoises are never "high white." The new growth is always black, and as they grow, they look like normal Babcocki leopard tortoises with normal leopard patterning. In my opinion, "high white" happens because a tortoise is kept indoors without a lot of UVB. But that's just an opinion - no scientific facts to base it on.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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The babies that come from my adult leopard tortoises are never "high white." The new growth is always black, and as they grow, they look like normal Babcocki leopard tortoises with normal leopard patterning. In my opinion, "high white" happens because a tortoise is kept indoors without a lot of UVB. But that's just an opinion - no scientific facts to base it on.
I agree with this hypothesis. @Tom any ideas, @Neal ?
 

Tom

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I've seen "high white" individuals. Even raised a couple. Mine were outside just as much as the "regular" colored ones that I raised with them. They all got the same routine and diet, so I don't know what causes it. This is one of those things where I can think of examples to refute every theory I've seen about it. The only theory I can't refute is simple genetic variation. Like a blonde haired kid among brown haired siblings.

I'm all ears and ready to learn though.
 

diamondbp

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I think unless a leopard is a good 8-10 inches already and significantly white then there is no legitimate way of selling a tortoise as a "high white". All of my young leopards have gone through stages that they appeared "high white" and then not long after another black band growth comes in. As Yvonne said , 90% of the time it seems to all balance out eventually and you end up with a normal (yet beautiful) looking leopard.

Now if this breeder has photos of high white parents and is a trusted breeder than I guess you would have better chances of actually getting legit "high whites". But of course in the realm of natural leopard variability you simply can never know what you will end up with. I'm more than happy with the all natural look.

When it comes to what actually causes the "high white" pattern, I think diet would be the last thing I would suggest but I could be wrong. During the winter time many of my young leopards were high white because the weren't receiving as much direct sunlight or contact with dirt. But once I moved them outside during the warmer months the "high white" quickly became an off white or tan"ish" color. I would venture to say that the individuals that you see advertised and appear really high white haven't spent much, if any, time at all in the sun. Yet again,I'm sure there are exceptions.

I've only worked with leopards for two years and I know that's a drop in the bucket compared to some breeders. So I'm all ears to what others have to say. In the end I still love them all whether dark/normal/high whites/ whatever. If they are healthy than I'm happy.
 

Kapidolo Farms

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I see, my quote was a bit too out of context. I think the seller was rebuffing the request for images because he did not want to get into a debate about high white. With an image you get all sorts of further questions, about people wanting the high white, he was, IMO, trying to cut that off.

My interest in posing this here was to see if anyone had some concept or idea that high whaite can be 'raised' into the tortoise by some husbandry technique, nuture over nature kind of thing, instaed of genetics.

I have seen many leopards at about 4 to six inches in length that were somewhat more white than black, but as a few people have pointed out, then that black pattern comes back into the scute.

This overall is not a totally crazy idea. Flamingoes are pink due to a diet item, and it can be manipulated very easily in captivity. That is a different thing to some extent, but not so different. Feathure are the result of extra cellular products, much like the scute. Once laid down, it's is what it will be.
 

hessbrit

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I'm so glad you posted this! I was just wondering yesterday what causes the different color bands.
 

Animals1st

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I was interesting in purchasing a high white leopard but from what I am reading at the end of the day they all end up to be a "leopard"
 

AmRoKo

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I find the whole "high white" thing to be a marketing ploy to get more money. They all look like leopards to me. Leopards are all pretty unique in their patterning. I favor the leps that have more black to them than white though. :)
 

Elohi

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I have three leopards all raised together. Two are clutchmates. One is showing signs of being high white, BUT he's not 10" yet. He's right at 6", maybe a touch more. His clutchmate is smaller and much darker. The unrelated leopard kept with these clutchmates is darker as well.

It's all quite interesting. I believe it to be genetics.

I have two other leopards, one an adoptee and a 5 week old hatchling as well. I can't want to see how the hatchlings patterns start growing out.
 

teresaf

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My 11" boy Diesel at 3 3/4 years old. He doesn't get alot of sun but his diet, right now at least, is same as the forum suggests. The people I got him from kept him in this horribly small exo-terra tank so I bet they didn't take him outside much either...But then again maybe they didn't feed him good either? He's HUGE for his age despite the lack of care and pyrimiding.
 
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