humidity not necessary

[FLINTUS]

I do understand to some extent what you're going for. I too disagree with constant 70%+ humidity, African savannah is simply not like that, and constant high humidity leads to thickening of the keratin. I do however believe, that there should be regions of the enclosure which are very high humidity, effectively replicating burrows like they'd have in the wild. That's my simplified 'beliefs' at least.
And yes, cold and humid conditions lead to respiratory problems for most tortoises, the deep forest ones being the exception in some cases-manouria, and kinixys erosa/homeana are the two which come to mind, maybe elongata as well?
Bienvenidos al forum y feliz navidad.

 

[FLINTUS]

~"Do not overfeed your tortoise; overfeeding can be a big part of the pyramiding problem. Feeding every other day is fine."
No scientific research supports this claim; multiple observations made provide us with enough evidence to conclude it is not the contributing factor. Sulcatas are grazing animals. In the wild, sulcatas can graze freely without restrictions. Numerous studies have proven this leads to the keratin becoming too dense, and the organs 'squashed'. A quick google would bring you answers
~"I find no scientific research to support the idea that soaking the plastron really does anything to stop pyramiding."
I can't find any scientific research that says keeping tortoises in a dry conditions is good.
Firstly, be more specific to the species in question. Secondly, a number of people have raised pardalis and sulcatas in dry conditions successfully, as have people in wet conditions. What we haven't seen yet are the long term effects of this, as the physical pyramiding is only a small part of a tortoise's health.
~"If you must have one or more of these majestic tortoises, please do your homework. Find out as much as you can about their natural habitat in sub-Saharan Africa, including their natural foods, temperatures and humidity levels."
The term "Sub-Saharan Africa" is too broad, it includes regions that don't even have tortoises. The author of this work should use the term "Sahel".
~"Yes, they do need some humidity. Field research indicates that 45 to 50% is typical of levels in the wild."
Wrong, we cannot assume their "typical" levels in the wild. We must conduct research in the areas in which these tortoises live in. Most of the time sulcatas live in their under-ground burrows. The author has not provided any research that gives us this information. It would be wrong and cruel not to replicate the conditions in which they spend most of their time.
The problem is, like most non-European and non-American tortoises, little research has been done on the wild tortoises and is easily available. I'm going to Kenya this summer, so will try and get some climatic data for species there-which include pardalis, sulcata, and belliana.
6- "Soaking is an unnatural, artificial solution to an unnatural, artificial problem caused by unnatural, artificial husbandry and habitat! In fact, this may well be a contributing factor to pyramiding. "
No evidence supports this outrageous claim.
7-"What does happen frequently is that the animal defecates in the water when soaking. If this happens several times a day or several times a week, you are interfering with the animal’s natural digestive transit time. The food is passing through the gut too quickly. Bad husbandry hinders the fermentation time needed to obtain the ultimate value of all the nutrients."
This isn't very helpful information. It makes us ask the question: how long does it ingested food to be digested? Does soaking really cause nutritional value to be lost? Gopherus agassizii urinates and defecates during rainfall (it drinks water during this time). Why doesn't it have gastrointestinal issues?

I will ask you this question: In the wild, they face circumstances in which their environments are very wet and humid. If we prohibit them from facing these circumstances, isn't that cruel, artificial, unnatural, and unusual?
As above, the 'wild' is not constantly wet and humid, it varies with seasons, and we haven't got enough data to say 'this is the habitat sulcatas live in', where as we can to some extent with non-burrowing species by looking at weather station readings

 

[Abdulla6169]

1-Can you link me any specific studies? Most of what I find isn't helpful; just forums and unprofessional work. Thanks, I want to read that
2- Even if we were able to raise them well in dry conditions, there still hasn't been conclusive scientific research that shows us that the "dry way" is better.
3- Good luck on your trip to Kenya.
4- I meant by my last question that we cannot completely prohibit conditions that occur in the wild, it's unnatural. I should have been clearer; I'm not trying to say they must constantly have very high humidity levels I'm trying to point out that they should have higher humidity levels at some point in their lives.

 

[Juan V]

Idk, but if I write "Sahel" in google and search for images, the kind of landscape I find is WAY more arid than, lets say, the mediterranean or texas.
Yes, they need some moisture, but I just don't think they are to be kept in extremely humid environments. These tortoises are sub saharan. They are also found in some of the outer regions of the sahara desert where they grow and live. And I cannot imagine any place near the sahel with extremely humid conditions throughout the year

And besides, yes you can replicate or mimic their habitat, but I think that even though they might be able to survive extremely harsh conditions, they could be better off in other not so harsh climates. Animals can adapt and i've read about captive adult sulcatas sleeping in temperatures bellow 0ºC at night . I don't think there is "one correct" climate standard on which all sulcatas should be raised, but many different kind of settings that are adequate to these animals. I think it's also important to adapt the tortoise to a similar environment where it will live for the rest of it's life. So if you live in a mediterranean climate, you should try to make the tortoise adapt to that climate , because that's where it's gonna live. (and sulcatas do adapt extremely well to these temperatures. One friend of mine has a 15y/o sulcata in his garden and he doesn't heat the tortoise up in the winter. And i've heard many cases of sulcata tortoises that don't even use winter heating around here. Temperatures rarelly drop bellow 10ºC.and that's pretty fine for an adult sulcata. When mine grow up, i'll set them a closed heated small house in the garden for them to warm up every once in a while and i'll let them graze through the garden.

 

[Juan V]

4- I meant by my last question that we cannot completely prohibit conditions that occur in the wild, it's unnatural. I should have been clearer; I'm not trying to say they must constantly have very high humidity levels I'm trying to point out that they should have higher humidity levels at some point in their lives.

I agree with that. Temperatures should vary. But I think what's at stake here are the better conditions for young juveniles. Adult sulcatas can live healthily pretty much anywhere no matter the temperature (well, not really , but if you live somewhere dry with sun this shouldn't be a problem).

What i've found so far about these creatures is
1) SUN, AS MUCH OF IT AS POSSIBLE
2) Good healthy varied diet. give them as much green and different veggies as you can, and plants like grass, dandelions, mores and so on should be fed preferably to lettuce , tomatoes and other household greens.

I give them lettuce every once in a while, specially in the summer, when temperatures are high and they need to be kept hydrated. But normally I rather give them grass. Diet is in my opinion more important than humidity .

 

[Jodie]

I feel like the goal is not to replicate the harsh aspects of their natural environment, but to provide ideal circumstances. I don't want my tortoises to survive, but to thrive. I raised a Leopard in dry conditions, he survived, but has a lot of pyramiding. I am currently raising 4 in humid conditions, 80%. My temperature never goes below 80F. I have not had a single run in with illness.

 

[Abdulla6169]

Idk, but if I write "Sahel" in google and search for images, the kind of landscape I find is WAY more arid than, lets say, the mediterranean or texas.
Yes, they need some moisture, but I just don't think they are to be kept in extremely humid environments. These tortoises are sub saharan. They are also found in some of the outer regions of the sahara desert where they grow and live. And I cannot imagine any place near the sahel with extremely humid conditions throughout the year

And besides, yes you can replicate or mimic their habitat, but I think that even though they might be able to survive extremely harsh conditions, they could be better off in other not so harsh climates. Animals can adapt and i've read about captive adult sulcatas sleeping in temperatures bellow 0ºC at night . I don't think there is "one correct" climate standard on which all sulcatas should be raised, but many different kind of settings that are adequate to these animals. I think it's also important to adapt the tortoise to a similar environment where it will live for the rest of it's life. So if you live in a mediterranean climate, you should try to make the tortoise adapt to that climate , because that's where it's gonna live. (and sulcatas do adapt extremely well to these temperatures. One friend of mine has a 15y/o sulcata in his garden and he doesn't heat the tortoise up in the winter. And i've heard many cases of sulcata tortoises that don't even use winter heating around here. Temperatures rarelly drop bellow 10ºC.and that's pretty fine for an adult sulcata. When mine grow up, i'll set them a closed heated small house in the garden for them to warm up every once in a while and i'll let them graze through the garden.

The reason you get extremely dry pictures is because of droughts in the region.
Temperatures below 0*C can be detrimental to a Sulcata, from what I have read their region has low of about 16*C. The following afternoon, the temperatures are very hot. I can tell you this: they will survive, but they will not thrive. Their still is a potential risk of your sulcata dying due to such low temperatures. I highly recommend giving them heated areas in which they spend their nights. The high humidity levels and high temperatures have worked perfectly for many of us, I don't think we will ever be able to replicate their conditions in such a way that we avoid pyramiding and provide a very natural enclosure.


Picture from @Tom.

 

[mike taylor]

I keep my leopards at 80ºf on the cool end then 95/98 on the hot end . The humidifier comes on in the morning gets up to 100% then turns off . It fades out throughout the day. To about 30% it works fine for them . I was keeping the humidifier on in fifteen minute intervals throughout the day. But it kept everything to wet .

 

[Juan V]

yes, ofc humidity is necessary . it's necessary for all living creatures. The question really is how much of it.
I think it should roughly be between 30% and 55% as something healthy. 80% of humidity for a sulcata I think is unhealthy.

 

[mike taylor]

I think the point should be providing humidity is good . Every day the morning dew will provide humidity then it fades off in the heat of the day . Then they will hideout in grasses or bushes till it cools down .

 

[Juan V]

I keep my leopards at 80ºf on the cool end then 95/98 on the hot end . The humidifier comes on in the morning gets up to 100% then turns off . It fades out throughout the day. To about 30% it works fine for them . I was keeping the humidifier on in fifteen minute intervals throughout the day. But it kept everything to wet .

i like that idea. I wouldn't let it go all the way up to 100% but that's an idea that I like.

 

[tortadise]

The difference between wild and captive care though is greatly vast. In captivity most keepers don't provide an enclosure that's nearly adequate in identical ecological systems like they would be in the wild. The burrows are a key aspect for this species. Same with gopherus species in western North America and Mexico. Also we have no ability to facilitate pressure systems and climactic changes in captivity as they are prone to in the wild. So when sulcatas are aestivating in the burrow during the heat of the day and exposed to higher humidity levels within the burrow that exposes them to a more moist environment during the dry season. Obviously the wet season is greater ambient humidity within the sehal, and when the offspring hatch. But when looking at a picture of a landscape and assuming it's dry, or wet, that's just the surface of perception that we humans can easily do. I've been to rain-forests in central and South America numerous times. Upon initial viewing especially after a rain storm you would assume it's wet right? Well within the many layers of canopy forests many times the lower canopy(floor) doesn't even get wet because of the coverage and canopy system within that ecosystem. There's also more to humidity than people think. Three types of humidity are described in scientific literatures and testing values. Relative, absolute and specific. A thread I did on how significant microclimates are to keeping a tortoise in captivity kinda explains humidity a bit more.http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/significant-of-microclimates-in-captivity.85293/#post-795461

But all in all. What many can perceive as "black or white" always ends up being a colorful rainbow. There's so much detail to it that's it seems to work out better for more to soak and allocate a humid environment for the sulcatas they keep.

I looked at your enclosure. Now I have to say it's closed, which is good. Because it's established it's own microclimate. I'd be willing to bet if you purchased some quite pricy testing tools for specific and absolute moisture your soils in the enclosure would read a lot higher than you'd think. Relative humidity is the most commonly observed and recorded type of humidity. But specific and absolute also play a very large role within micro habitats ecosystems.


Here also is a nice study do e of seasons and rainfall in regional Sahel northern Nigeria.
http://www.ccsenet.org/journal/index.php/esr/article/download/29091/17351


And finally a fantastic example of climactic data for the Sahel region. Notice figure one in the top left. The differences in each type of humidity on the graph. This was atmospherically tested and directly tested in the soil, burrows, or microclimates(bushes, under trees, grasses, burrows etc)
http://fallmeeting.agu.org/2012/files/2012/12/guichard_etal_agu2012_26nov.pdf

 

[leopard777]

The reason you get extremely dry pictures is because of droughts in the region. View attachment 111390
Temperatures below 0*C can be detrimental to a Sulcata, from what I have read their region has low of about 16*C. The following afternoon, the temperatures are very hot. I can tell you this: they will survive, but they will not thrive. Their still is a potential risk of your sulcata dying due to such low temperatures. I highly recommend giving them heated areas in which they spend their nights. The high humidity levels and high temperatures have worked perfectly for many of us, I don't think we will ever be able to replicate their conditions in such a way that we avoid pyramiding and provide a very natural enclosure.


Picture from @Tom.

this a wild sulcata pic ? been trying to find wild sulcata pictures , seem like a difficult task . only can find tons of wild leopard pictures

 

[boris'mommy]

Me and my boyfriend had this discussion a few years back, when we had just found tortoise forum and had purchased a 2 hatchling sulcatas. One for him at his place and one for me at my own home. He kept his dry in almost identical climates as what you're suggesting and I went the way of humid hides and above at least 70% humidity at all times. His hatchling died before even hitting 6 months while my Boris is now over 2 years old. I will take a living healthy tortoise over a slowly killed one anyday. And so should you. Also not believing everything you see on the internet and actually listening to the advice of professionals may help you out in the long run.

 

[Tom]

Juan V,

You are spreading the same misinformation that we have all been subjected to for the past 25 years or so, since sulcatas became available to the general public here in the early 90s. This information, your information, is based on incorrect assumptions that have been repeated over and over again. People like you (and formerly me too) come along and read all this old stuff and we believe it. It all sounds so logical and founded in what appear to be facts, but it is wrong. How do I know it is wrong? Because following this information and following the advice of all the experts has failed all of us for decades. With lots of input from lots of sources, I and several others have finally figured out what IS correct and what DOES work. Dave Friend from the Ojai sulcat project has conceded as much in several personal conversations, but he has never taken the time to re-do his website, unfortunately.

Many of your claims are false. Please allow me to dispute them.
1. The African rainy season last 3-4 months, not just one. This is according to my friend Tomas Diagne of the African Chelonian Institute who has lived there in sulcata territory his whole life. According to Tomas, the brush is so full and thick within a couple of weeks of the start of the rainy season that is is impenetrable. At the base of these plants is where baby sulcata spend their first few months, in the rain and African heat. During this time of year it is hot rainy, humid and there are puddles and marshes every where. After that time, when the dry season creeps in, they spend their time in warm, humid underground burrows. None of these facts are mentioned in old books, websites or anywhere else.
2. 69 degrees is much too cold for baby sulcatas. This is one common factor that I agree with many of the old time keepers on. There is no cold season over there. Even when their "winter" temps dip into the high 60's, there daytime highs are near or above 100. This results in average burrow temps of 80+ degrees. At no time would a young sulcata, or an adult for that matter, experience temps in the 60's in the wild. You had problems because you kept them too cold.
3. You have asserted that you think 80% humidity is both unnatural and unhealthy multiple times here. You are wrong on both counts. You say this because of old stuff you read and your own mistake of letting your babies be too cold. I say you are wrong based on what I know happens in the wild and what I have personally observed through multiple experiments over many years. You are wrong because I have personally raised HUNDREDS of sulcatas (and other species...) this way with ZERO problems. Not a single sick one ever. That is not coincidence and it is not luck. In fact hundreds of people all over the world are now using these techniques and reporting the same success.
4. You say "1) SUN, AS MUCH OF IT AS POSSIBLE". Actually this is not the case for hatchlings. Too much sun in our outdoor enclosures dries them out and greatly slows their rates of growth when compared to their siblings raised mostly indoors on the same amount and same type of food. Some sunshine is good, but hatchlings in the wild would not be seeing much direct sunshine while hiding under their heavy thickets of vegetation. They would instead see high humidity and warm temps under there.

You have made the mistake of making all sorts of assertions with no evidence to back up your claims. On the other hand, I have thousands of post and pictures to back up my claims, along with about 50 tortoises that prove every word I've typed here. Growing a sulcata in a typical indoor enclosure with 30% humidity will result in stunted, pyramided tortoises, if they survive. How do I know this? Because I have done it many times in years past. How many sulcatas have YOU raised with high humidity and the correct temperatures? None. The truth is that you don't know if this method is good or bad, because you have never done it correctly. I had to prove what I was saying was true by demonstrating it. I have publicly demonstrated it many many times now, and hundreds, if not thousands, of other people have now demonstrated it as well. For any of us to take you seriously, you will need to demonstrate your assertions as well. You will need to get 12 clutch mates. Raise 6 my way, and 6 your way, and then let's compare results after a few months or a couple of years. I have already done this many times, and that is how I know how your experiment will turn out. YOU still need to learn how it will turn out.

You took the time to read about how we recommend housing sulcatas here on this forum and jumped to conclusions based on previous misinformation that you were taught, but you appear to have skipped over all the thousands of posts and pics of smooth healthy, warm humid raised tortoises. I hope you will now take the time to correct this oversight. I will help you:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding-ii-the-leopards.18931/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/meet-toms-sulcatas.56465/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/meet-toms-leopard-tortoises.56643/

I hope other members will chime in and post links to their own threads of their own smooth, healthy tortoises raised with these new and improved methods.

One last thing: I agree with your opinions on diet. Just so you don't think I'm entirely opposed to everything you had to say in your initial foray onto our forum here.

Welcome. I hope we are able to change your mind about some of the old outdated info you are still following.

 

[Jodie]

As always, well said Tom.

 

[mike taylor]

Here you go the Effects of humidity. The one on the left is a humid tortoise the one in the right a dry one .

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Mike, post profile shots of your 2, will ya? maybe you can elaborate on more of their differences, too?

 

[Yvonne G]

Another example:

Tortoise raised dry:




Tortoises raised with lots of humidity:

 

[Juan V]

Me and my boyfriend had this discussion a few years back, when we had just found tortoise forum and had purchased a 2 hatchling sulcatas. One for him at his place and one for me at my own home. He kept his dry in almost identical climates as what you're suggesting and I went the way of humid hides and above at least 70% humidity at all times. His hatchling died before even hitting 6 months while my Boris is now over 2 years old. I will take a living healthy tortoise over a slowly killed one anyday. And so should you. Also not believing everything you see on the internet and actually listening to the advice of professionals may help you out in the long run.

But this is not enough!! I coult tell you the same but the other way around !!!. The shopkeeper I bought the tortoise from told me he used to have them in a humid warm environment and the torts loved the water so much that some developed funghi in their shells. Others had some mucus and a few perished.

The problem here is that the tortoise could have perished for many other reasons other than low humidity. Out of every 10 newly borned sulcatas in the wild, only 2 or 3 will make it to fully grown adults. The others will perish in the first year of their life due to predators, getting lost or stranded in a place where ir couldn't find water, and more will die just because their body and genes are just not fit enough. Not all tortoises that are born have the genes to make it to adulthood even if their husbandry is excellent.

The problem here seems to be that many professionals say many different things. And the only thing that they agree totally upon is sunlight, healthy diets and at least some moisture.