Hybrid box turtles

[Saloli]

I recently saw an ad on either fauna classifieds or king snake advertising hybrid (interspecific) box turtles. I think they were a cross between flabts and obts. I think that intentional hybridizing should be avoided as it represents a threat to the genetic integrity of the captive populations. I ask that you do not purchase hybrids and maybe boycott those who intentionally hybridize for commercial reasons (for the sole purpose of selling them).

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Yeeeaahh, this has been discussed a million times on this forum, and probably will continue to on occasion. Most are against it, some are fine with it, a few could care less.

 

[Yvonne G]

The thing with box turtles is, so many of their areas overlap in the wild, that interbreeding occurs naturally in the wild. Also, I'm not real sure, but I think "hybrid" is mis-used here. I believe the term should be "intergrade."

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

I don't think Florida BTs and Ornates overlap, though. Taxonomically speaking, I think the crossing would still be an intergrade, but not a naturally-occurring one.

 

[shellysmom]

I can understand why you feel this way. Be careful, though. Just because a breeder does NOT hybridize animals doesn't automatically make them a good breeder. For example, in the world of dog breeding, there are reputable breeders, questionable backyard breeders, and horrific puppy mills where the breeding animals are neglected and the offspring are sold sick. Same thing goes for torts. Anyone buying any animal should always, always strive to buy from reputable breeders who take excellent care of their animals, do their best to raise healthy happy babies, and provide care info with their sales. Those are the most important things, IMO. I'm really on the fence about hybridizing, but a boycott doesn't pertain either way, since I get all of my torts "gently used" from rescues and CL.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

The thing with box turtles is, so many of their areas overlap in the wild, that interbreeding occurs naturally in the wild. Also, I'm not real sure, but I think "hybrid" is mis-used here. I believe the term should be "intergrade."

Saloli is right. Although mating may occur between different subspecies in zones of intergradation, different species do not typically hybridize even where they coexist, which is why they're considered different species in the first place.

So, the Carolina box turtle (Terrapene carolina) contains several subspecies, and the ornate box turtle (Terrapene ornata) contains two subspecies, but the Carolina and ornate box turtles are in different species altogether. They coexist in parts of the Great Plains, but they do not really hybridize there. Therefore, they should not be hybridized in captivity, either.

I wouldn't cross different subspecies together, but since this does occur naturally in zones of intergradation, I would argue it's not that bad. However, I agree with Saloli that people should not be hybridizing Carolina and ornate boxies, since they are not even in the same species. To discourage this practice, people should not be buying Carolina x ornate hybrids, either.

 

[Saloli]

The thing with box turtles is, so many of their areas overlap in the wild, that interbreeding occurs naturally in the wild. Also, I'm not real sure, but I think "hybrid" is mis-used here. I believe the term should be "intergrade."

I'm not taking about intergrades ( which by the way only applies to ones in the wild and with in a species). I'm talking about a crossing between species which almost never occurs in the wild because of difference in habitat preference as well as mating rituals.

---

Saloli is right. Although mating may occur between different subspecies in zones of intergradation, different species do not typically hybridize even where they coexist, which is why they're considered different species in the first place.

So, the Carolina box turtle (Terrapene carolina) contains several subspecies, and the ornate box turtle (Terrapene ornata) contains two subspecies, but the Carolina and ornate box turtles are in different species altogether. They coexist in parts of the Great Plains, but they do not really hybridize there. Therefore, they should not be hybridized in captivity, either.

I wouldn't cross different subspecies together, but since this does occur naturally in zones of intergradation, I would argue it's not that bad. However, I agree with Saloli that people should not be hybridizing Carolina and ornate boxies, since they are not even in the same species. To discourage this practice, people should not be buying Carolina x ornate hybrids, either.

You see my point if people dont buy them then generally breeders won't breed them. I do believe people should only buy from reputable breeders. Though as a side note if someone has a colony of turtles from the same intergrade zone then they should maintain them as they are part of the genetic diversity in the wild. Though they should be labeled as such not passed off as one of the subspecies.

 

[fbsmith3]

I think your problem is that this guy will always find a buyer. Those of us who care about our shelled friends are not your target.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I think your problem is that this guy will always find a buyer. Those of us who care about our shelled friends are not your target.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

I think your problem is that this guy will always find a buyer. Those of us who care about our shelled friends are not your target.

I'm afraid you're right. There's another problem just as big as hybridization, and that's inbreeding. A lot of buyers are willing to pay more for color morphs or albinos than for wildtype. This doesn't make sense either, but unfortunately there is demand for it.

 

[Saloli]

Unfortunately hybridizing and line breeding are problems that are often tied together sort of speak. The cornsnakes, and leopard geckos unfortunately have already had both these done to their species (the captive populations are really a mix of two or more related species not the species they supposedly are). It isn't just my problem it should be anybody who cares about the species or biodiversity in general. I posted here for that reason people who already care about the species are generally more likely to listen the others would be.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Unfortunately hybridizing and line breeding are problems that are often tied together sort of speak. The cornsnakes, and leopard geckos unfortunately have already had both these done to their species (the captive populations are really a mix of two or more related species not the species they supposedly are). It isn't just my problem it should be anybody who cares about the species or biodiversity in general. I posted here for that reason people who already care about the species are generally more likely to listen the others would be.

Well said. Of course, there's no need to convince me, since I already agree with you. How can others be persuaded, though?

 

[mchong9606]

In the pet trade, the unusual pet is the one that causes the most interest, even if it's just fad. Inbreeding, exotic mixes are becoming the norm. I'm not worried about the individual that has a few different varieties in their backyard and they just happen to have a few hatchlings by chance. It's definitely the commercial breeder whose obvious goal is to turn out as many as they can for the most profit that worries the ones who care about the integrity and success of the species.

 

[fbsmith3]

Well people like me love Three toed box turtles just as they are. They are completely colourless compared to the vivid colors of their cousins.

Personally I see vivid colours where others would miss.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

Well people like me love Three toed box turtles just as they are. They are completely colourless compared to the vivid colors of their cousins.

Personally I see vivid colours where others would miss.

Yep. Three-toed boxies usually don't have patterning on their shells (although some do), but the colors on their limbs and head are still gorgeous.

 

[Saloli]

It is true the random individual isnt the problem though through us as a group could help to reduce the chances of hybrids being produced by informing people who come here looking for information. Of course we can't tell them what to do but we can inform them of the consequences of their actions (just like when we inform people of basic husbandry). There are groups like the herpetologist's league that people condemn hybridizing. People belonging to it are not allowed to reproduce mutations and selectively breed or hybridize if found to do so they are expelled. Though sense it is a professional society it doesn't really apply to most people. Unfortunately there aren't really any equivalents (that I can think of) that apply to the general public.

 

[Hunahpu]

I saw that ad too and was curious since I keep an ornate and a TTBT, the latter of whom I am sure is a TTBTxEBT cross though was not sold as such (but that's another matter). I don't recall seeing anything on the ad or the website about what kind of a hybrid it was or whether or not it was bred intentionally or not. They were also asking a lot less money for the hybrids. I think your request to boycott in this particular sale is a bit extreme, given the lack of information. It wouldn't make sense from a business stand point to intentionally create a cross and then sell the babies for less than purebreds.

I'd hate to think what might happen to offspring of accidental breedings if no one were willing to keep hybrids.

 

[Saloli]

This is the ad I'm talking about. They where intentionally bred.
FLORIDA x ORNATE BOX TURTLE BABIES - UNDERGROUND STOCK - BRED FROM OUR FINEST ANIMALS

--
CAPTIVE BRED HERE AT UNDERGROUND
THESE WERE BRED FROM A FEW OF OUR SELECT STAND OUT ORANTES AND FLORIDAS
GORGEOUS BRIGHT COLOR WITH EXTREMELY CLEAN SPOTTING AND PATTERN
EATING EVERYTHING OFFERED! BOX TURTLE DIET, KRILL, CRICKETS, FRESH GREENS
ONLY $125 EACH!

Unfortunately as this sounds the production of hybrids posses a threat to the captive populations of both species. As these species are both in trouble (declining to endangered depending on location) the hybrids should be isolated from other box turtles and not sold. This is because of the facts that often when people get tired of a "pet" they give them away,sell them or release them and in the first two cases often don't tell the people who receive them they are hybrids. This happens with fish all the time. Though some people would say they should be destroyed I don't think they should.

 

[yagyujubei]

This is the ad I'm talking about. They where intentionally bred.
FLORIDA x ORNATE BOX TURTLE BABIES - UNDERGROUND STOCK - BRED FROM OUR FINEST ANIMALS

--
CAPTIVE BRED HERE AT UNDERGROUND
THESE WERE BRED FROM A FEW OF OUR SELECT STAND OUT ORANTES AND FLORIDAS
GORGEOUS BRIGHT COLOR WITH EXTREMELY CLEAN SPOTTING AND PATTERN
EATING EVERYTHING OFFERED! BOX TURTLE DIET, KRILL, CRICKETS, FRESH GREENS
ONLY $125 EACH!

Unfortunately as this sounds

I really don't get it. These guys are pretty knowledgable, and have a good reputation. The only reason for them to do this , probaby, is because they can't sell pure floridas, because they are in that state. What I can't understand is why not just breed ornates? At least, though, they are letting people know that they are crosses, I'm sure they could simply market them as ornates.

 

[Saloli]

By the way if your turtle is a natural cross between a ttbt and an ebt it's species name would be Terrapene carolina without subspecies designation (just thought you might want to know). if you know where you turtle's geographic origin is that might tell you if it is an intergrade.