Introducing two tortoises? Yes or no?

[amy&alfie]

What's everyone's opinion on introducing two torts of the same species and approximate age but from different places? I've read that you shouldn't keep more than one in an enclosure but I've seen that most people have more than one. I have a 6 month old horsefeild and would like to get another while he's still young.

Any advice welcome. X

 

[johnsonnboswell]

No. No. No. No. Never.

Let me elaborate. Horsefields don't get along with others. They are scrappy and territorial. They bully and fight, and the new one to be introduced suffers terribly. A pair is usually a recipe for disaster. Bullying can be subtle and easy to miss, easy to misinterpret. Males fight each other, females bully each other, and a male pesters a female beyond bearing. Pairs don't work. There can be death, even without bloody fights.

A breeding colony can work, 3 or more females and one male. If the animals are young, they can't be sexed yet, so it may not work once they mature. It may never work. They need a lot of space and sight breaks. Even a group of mature tortoises can fail.

There is already a thread on this subject. I had to separate a big old female RT because a smaller female bullied her.

Some species are more social or tolerant. Some people have large successful colonies that live outdoors all year. A lot of us with more than one tortoise have a lot of habitats.

Any new tortoise requires a quarantine period of around 6 months in a complete separate set up. Have as many habitats and tortoises as you like, but not together. It's so good you asked!

 

[tortoise_world123]

I don't know as much. I have two Hermann's tortoises who get on great and are a couple years apart. I can see the points made about how they can fight with one-another however I have seen it work many times with no problem. If you do it just be prepared for the worst and have different enclosures. I'm aware that at this time it is difficult to determine the sex at this age.

 

[amy&alfie]

Blimey! I've seen people say it can go wrong but I didn't know just how wrong! Thanks for all your advice! I'll leave my little'un by himself for the forseable then! Until I get enough space for more enclosures at least. It's right what they say I suppose, my need for a friend for him is my need not his, he's quite happy not being picked on! I say he coz he holds his tail to the side but I know it's too early to sex. Also, while I'm here I'm struggling knowing what to do about humidity, I've covered his table with foil and am pouring water in the substrate and mixing it up daily will this do? If not what makes better covering, I've read babies need lots of humidity ... Also, am I right to turn his lights off at night so temps drop as in the wild or does he need to be heated at all times? So much conflicting advice! Sorry for the 21 questions!

 

[tortoise_world123]

Yea turn the lights off at night. Just make sure it doesn't go really cold.

 

[amy&alfie]

Yea turn the lights off at night. Just make sure it doesn't go really cold.

Thanks that's what I thought, it never gets lower than 22 degrees C in our living room overnight I have been keeping an eye on the thermometer

 

[Tom]

I don't know as much. I have two Hermann's tortoises who get on great and are a couple years apart. I can see the points made about how they can fight with one-another however I have seen it work many times with no problem. If you do it just be prepared for the worst and have different enclosures. I'm aware that at this time it is difficult to determine the sex at this age.

Often people don't know how to read tortoise behavior and they think things are fine when things are not fine at all. We've had whole threads on here where people mistake OBVIOUS tortoise aggression as one tortoise "helping" another altruistically. The likelihood is that your tortoises are managing to survive despite constant chronic stress, and they are not "getting on" at all.

Pairs are not a good idea at any age. There is always a winner and a loser and the loser suffers. Given the choice, the less dominant one would leave the more dominant tortoises territory. Not given the choice, they just have to live with a very unnatural unpleasant situation until they either succumb and die, or find a way out.

Further, young russians are more scrappy than young hermanni in most cases.

 

[tortoise_world123]

Often people don't know how to read tortoise behavior and they think things are fine when things are not fine at all. We've had whole threads on here where people mistake OBVIOUS tortoise aggression as one tortoise "helping" another altruistically. The likelihood is that your tortoises are managing to survive despite constant chronic stress, and they are not "getting on" at all.

Pairs are not a good idea at any age. There is always a winner and a loser and the loser suffers. Given the choice, the less dominant one would leave the more dominant tortoises territory. Not given the choice, they just have to live with a very unnatural unpleasant situation until they either succumb and die, or find a way out.

Further, young russians are more scrappy than young hermanni in most cases.

Every group in the animal kingdom has a leader/dominant figure. Yes I believe tortoises do compete for things such as food and space however (if there is no fighting) the "loser" will still lead a relatively happy life, cared for properly of course. My two snuggle up in the corner every night. This may just be a survival mechanism but I'm certain that if my tortoises, as you say are living unnaturally and uncomfortably then that probably wouldn't happen. They are also very close to one-another (not far apart) so again I don't think they would show that behaviour. Therefore I and many others believe that keeping tortoises together is fine under the right conditions. So to the person who asked this question, I would say you could get a companion for your little friend. Please don't be put off with all these comments. You just need to search it up online and many websites and forums will give you advise about introducing new torts. Horse fields may be "scrappy" but it can work. Do more research on the topic and you'll know what I mean. View attachment ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1439147689.217810.jpg

 

[Lyn W]

Every group in the animal kingdom has a leader/dominant figure. Yes I believe tortoises do compete for things such as food and space however (if there is no fighting) the "loser" will still lead a relatively happy life, cared for properly of course. My two snuggle up in the corner every night. This may just be a survival mechanism but I'm certain that if my tortoises, as you say are living unnaturally and uncomfortably then that probably wouldn't happen. They are also very close to one-another (not far apart) so again I don't think they would show that behaviour. Therefore I and many others believe that keeping tortoises together is fine under the right conditions. So to the person who asked this question, I would say you could get a companion for your little friend. Please don't be put off with all these comments. You just need to search it up online and many websites and forums will give you advise about introducing new torts. Horse fields may be "scrappy" but it can work. Do more research on the topic and you'll know what I mean. View attachment 142759

The fact they do not actively fight but are 'close' to each other does not mean that one isn't bullying the other. Tortoises do not 'snuggle' - that could be a territorial thing.
Please do not be so quick to dismiss not just 'opinions' of others but their findings from years and years of tortoise keeping and observations. They are trying to stop us making the same mistakes as themselves so that our torts can live happier healthier and longer lives. It is a very foolish person that ignores the voice of experience!

 

[Lyn W]

Blimey! I've seen people say it can go wrong but I didn't know just how wrong! Thanks for all your advice! I'll leave my little'un by himself for the forseable then! Until I get enough space for more enclosures at least. It's right what they say I suppose, my need for a friend for him is my need not his, he's quite happy not being picked on! I say he coz he holds his tail to the side but I know it's too early to sex. Also, while I'm here I'm struggling knowing what to do about humidity, I've covered his table with foil and am pouring water in the substrate and mixing it up daily will this do? If not what makes better covering, I've read babies need lots of humidity ... Also, am I right to turn his lights off at night so temps drop as in the wild or does he need to be heated at all times? So much conflicting advice! Sorry for the 21 questions!

Torts need darkness to sleep but also warmth especially in the NW of England so your best option would probably be to use a CHE run through a thermostat at night. I bought the CHE and thermostat at THE RANGE, about £55 for the 2 but the thermostat will keep the temp even and save on you elec bills. As soon as my MVB goes off the CHE is on and it also provides extra heat if needed during winter.

 

[tortoise_world123]

The fact they do not actively fight but are 'close' to each other does not mean that one isn't bullying the other. Tortoises do not 'snuggle' - that could be a territorial thing.
Please do not be so quick to dismiss not just 'opinions' of others but their findings from years and years of tortoise keeping and observations. They are trying to stop us making the same mistakes as themselves so that our torts can live happier healthier and longer lives. It is a very foolish person that ignores the voice of experience!

I fully understand that there can be risks when taking in more tortoises and believe me I have read and watched many stories of tortoises being bullied ect. I wouldn't say that I have dismissed/ignored any observations or opinions by anyone. In fact I have respect for people who are experienced keepers that come on here and advise people about their tortoises. All I have suggested is that keeping pairs together CAN work. I'm also aware that tortoises,like every reptile do not have any emotions. So by saying "my tortoises snuggle" was not suggesting that they may be enjoying each other's company but my tortoises tolerate each others presence. Who knows there could be many reasons. To me a tortoise that is eating,drinking,basking and doing whatever else is considered to be normal tortoise behaviour, isn't a problem. I too want the best for People and their tortoises. After all I didn't sign up to be a nuisance but rather share my knowledge/findings and ask questions.

 

[Tom]

Yes I believe tortoises do compete for things such as food and space however (if there is no fighting) the "loser" will still lead a relatively happy life, cared for properly of course.

So if I locked you in a cell with an angry deranged lunatic who wanted you gone, you'd live a normal happy healthy life? As long as you were eating and drinking, I should assume everything is fine?

C'mon. Even if the guy never touched you, it would still be a very very uncomfortable, stressful living arrangement, would it not?

 

[Tom]

My two snuggle up in the corner every night. This may just be a survival mechanism but I'm certain that if my tortoises, as you say are living unnaturally and uncomfortably then that probably wouldn't happen.

You have illustrated my previous point here beautifully. I said people are ignorant of tortoise behavior, and you jumped right in and proved me right. "Snuggling" is the dominant one trying to crowd the other one out of its territory.

You look at this and see "snuggling". And animal behaviorist looks at this and sees something entirely different.

 

[tortoise_world123]

You have illustrated my previous point here beautifully. I said people are ignorant of tortoise behavior, and you jumped right in and proved me right. "Snuggling" is the dominant one trying to crowd the other one out of its territory.

You look at this and see "snuggling". And animal behaviorist looks at this and sees something entirely different.

I'm sorry but if the tortoise can't speak to you then how do assume that it's having a miserable time? How do you know that your tortoise is happy? My tortoise speedy is in my opinion the dominant one and he is usually the one that is further in the corner with my little one (Shelley) just nudging alongside. so it doesn't appear to be a territorial thing by any means.

 

[Tom]

Therefore I and many others believe that keeping tortoises together is fine under the right conditions.

Two points regarding the above sentence:

1. Everyone in the whole tortoise community used to think that sulcata hatchlings needed to be on dry substrate and only needed soaking once a week if ever. It was thought, and often repeated that even moderate humidity could cause shell rot and respiratory infections.

No matter how many people thought this and believed it to be true, it wasn't. They were all wrong. I used to be one of them.

2. Keeping GROUPS of tortoises together often IS fine. Pairs are another matter entirely. Pair dynamics are much more personal and confrontational than group dynamics.

In conclusion: Because you have not seen pair situations cause problems, and because you mistakenly believe everything is fine with your own pair, even though it is not fine and they are clearly showing the classic tortoise aggressions signs of following and crowding, is not a good reason to come on to a world wide forum and tell people it is fine and they should go ahead and try it, even thought people with decades of experience with the species in question are saying otherwise.

Here is another way to look at it: If the original poster follows the advice to house them separately, will any harm come to either of them? No. It can't. On the other hand, if the OP follows your well-intentioned but ill-informed advice, might harm come to either or both tortoises? Yep.

Exhibit "A": http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/bad-day-for-baby.114328/

Exhibit "B": http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...earned-the-hard-way.94114/page-3#post-1164970

There are dozens of examples like this on the forum if you care to search around a bit. We had a lady with two red foots join the forum a few months ago. We all told her the same thing we are telling this poster, and she ignored us. 6 weeks later she came on to the forum asking for medical advice as one of her RFs had bitten off the tail and rear leg of the other one. RFs are usually pretty peaceful.

More food for thought...

 

[Tom]

I'm sorry but if the tortoise can't speak to you then how do assume that it's having a miserable time? How do you know that your tortoise is happy? My tortoise speedy is in my opinion the dominant one and he is usually the one that is further in the corner with my little one (Shelley) just nudging alongside. so it doesn't appear to be a territorial thing by any means.

Just because you don't know how to read animal behavior does not mean the rest of the world doesn't either.

Your tortoises are telling you everything you need to know, you just have not yet learned how to listen.

 

[leigti]

I'm sorry but if the tortoise can't speak to you then how do assume that it's having a miserable time? How do you know that your tortoise is happy? My tortoise speedy is in my opinion the dominant one and he is usually the one that is further in the corner with my little one (Shelley) just nudging alongside. so it doesn't appear to be a territorial thing by any means.

If you were waiting for an animal to speak to you then you really shouldn't be owning animals. They tell you everything they can, it is your job to learn how to read their behavior. Animals don't play games, they "say it like it is". Tortoises are not the easiest to read, not like a dog or a horse. Please listen to the experience tortoise keepers here. Learn what you need to and then educate these friends of yours. Sorry to sound harsh, but your animals are paying the price for your ignorance.

 

[tortoise_world123]

Well I will have a look around and read some more threads. This is where our opinions differ (none of us know the true answer) some people believe in complete isolation and others believe in keeping them together. True, isolation doesn't harm them physically...and there is always risks of tortoises attacking in groups but if there doesn't seem to be a problem many people will take the risk. Here's the thing, I'm now almost certain that my eldest tort is not a he but a she and I'm now confused about my other tortoises sex (still young to decide). If my other one turns out to be female then that should be fine,right? But if it's a male then I would have to separate them over time.

What interests me is your opinion on groups being fine. Do you think that (with expanding space) adding another tortoise would be ok with a ratio of males:females (1:3)

 

[tortoise_world123]

If you were waiting for an animal to speak to you then you really shouldn't be owning animals. They tell you everything they can, it is your job to learn how to read their behavior. Animals don't play games, they "say it like it is". Tortoises are not the easiest to read, not like a dog or a horse. Please listen to the experience tortoise keepers here. Learn what you need to and then educate these friends of yours. Sorry to sound harsh, but your animals are paying the price for your ignorance.

I'm not waiting for my animals to speak to me. All I've stated is that there is no solid evidence to Suggest a tortoise gets lonely or doesn't like company. Thanks.

 

[tortoise_world123]

Sorry I meant a ratio of 1:2