I need to move there. I would fit in much better.Ever thought about moving to The Netherlands?They say us Dutchies are blunt, haha!
However, in my opinion (
I also think it's a cultural thing. Because I know Dutchies are often said to be blunt, I try to be extra polite...
Enjoy your beer!
Responding to posts or giving advice...
- Thread starter CharlieM
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I guess it all comes down to your definition of parroting. When I say that I am parroting I mean that I am repeating what I have LEARNED from this forum. I think you do have to learn something before you can repeat it as instructional with any sort of justification. I haven't really seen examples of people just repeating what they have heard without understanding it. I'm sure it's out there I just haven't seen it as far as I know.
Sometimes I try to point out to very new people that the information from books, many Internet sites, pet stores, and even veterinarians is often not correct and is "old" information that has now been updated. Heck, I even had to ignore the advice given to me from a well-established and respected college professor who has done decades of research on reptiles. The information she gave me was just flat out wrong for my Russian tortoise. But how could I tell her that? Actually I told her anyway, she just looked at me but I don't think she believed me.
There was some comment earlier about care sheets etc. being easy to find, I agree. However people still don't seem to find them. Even when the links are provided to them or they are referred there. The care sheets are a great place to start for a new person. But it takes a little time and experience to know how to tweak the information to meet your situation. Maybe that needs to be pointed out more. But if you get too technical at the very beginning people just get overwhelmed and tune out.
OK Tom, now I know what my problem is. I never got a participation trophy, and I have never been told I'm A special snowflake :-( :-( :-(
Tell this to the person who squashed their tortoises head in the door. Tell this to the person whose tortoise swallowed a 2' sewing pin. Tell this to the countless people seen by my vet friends with foreign body ingestions, broken legs and cracked shells from being kicked or stepped on, or dog mauling cases. Tell this to all the people treating their tropical species of tortoises for RIs because ether got too cold walking around on the floor. Tell this to the people who lost their tortoise because it walked out a door left open.
As usual, you are wrong…
Wrong again.
If I tell a person who has been blind from birth that the sky is blue, and the next day that person "parrots" this info to another blind friend, why is that "bad"? It is correct and factual in every way, yet our blind friend has no possible way of making any distinction of whether that is good or bad advice.
If I told the blind person the sky was green with yellow polka dots and they parroted this info, then it could be construed as "bad", or at least inaccurate.
Whether parroting is good or bad depends on what is being parroted. When I used to parrot the old incorrect info about sulcatas needing an arid environment and that they'd get a RI or shell rot from damp conditions, I was wrong and that was some "bad" parroting. When I now parrot something I've learned from another tortoise keeper that is factual and accurate, I would consider that "good" parroting.
When members of this forum that have never kept a tortoise on sand and never suffered through the horrors associated with a sand impacted tortoise tell other people that sand substrate is dangerous and should be avoided, I, for one, think that is a very GOOD thing.
When people who have never withheld water from their tortoise tell new keepers that tortoises actually DON'T get all the water they need from their food, how is that bad?
When a new keeper with a smooth sulcata parrots to another new sulcata keeper that rabbit pellets are not, in fact, a good substrate and that this practice will likely contribute to pyramiding, even though they themselves have never grown a pyramided tortoise on rabbit pellets, this is not a bad thing.
I think the problem is that many people (in general, not specifically on this forum) don't know what is good or bad advice. So they parrot what they read on the internet somewhere or heard from a neighbour. 90% of the people are not critical enough on the source of the information...
Luckily, I think on this forum it works quit well because truly knowleadgable people are often around to correct if neccessary. But I just signed out of a Facebook group on redfoots because they kept parroting that it is okay to let your tropical tortoise wander around your house...
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It is helpful to ad things like IMO, or "I've learned on this forum", or "It has been my experience". To help a person that asks a question gauge how certain you are about your reply. A suggestion is a suggestion and something that is based on first hand experience may be something more serious to take into consideration.
I do 'parrot' a lot if what I've learned if it seems to be the general consensus of many - but that's what learning is - listening to, and understanding - I have faith in the advice of members who are have far more first hand experienced than me. That's not to say what works for one works for all as everyone's circumstances are different, but I for one welcome all suggestions when I need help whether it comes first, second or third hand from any members. I often make sure I include that any advice I give was recommended to me, or point out that I am still a novice so as not to give any false impression that I am a font of all tort knowledge.
I very often reply to posts even if I can't give any advice; I tell them that someone with more experience will be along soon or simply point them in the right direction of other threads, but there is nothing worse than asking for help and no one responding at all. So even if it is just to say sorry can't help but I will tag someone who I think can etc - at least it lets the poster know their post is being read.
I very often reply to posts even if I can't give any advice; I tell them that someone with more experience will be along soon or simply point them in the right direction of other threads, but there is nothing worse than asking for help and no one responding at all. So even if it is just to say sorry can't help but I will tag someone who I think can etc - at least it lets the poster know their post is being read.
I agree on all points, and this is why my argument is that parroting can be bad, but it isn't always bad.
The moral of the story, for me, is: Don't repeat bad info. Like your RF example,
I wish you had chosen to stay and fight, instead of leave. There were some old timers here that tried to drive me away early on when I started talked about pyramiding and growing smooth tortoises in humid, well hydrated conditions. I fought it out and proved my points with facts and evidence, now look at all the healthy, smooth, well hydrated tortoises on this site and around the world. You can't win a fight that you walk away from.
Your helpful attitude, and the helpful attitude of others here is a large part of why this is the best and most active tortoise forum in the whole world. I don't want to see what you described above curtailed because someone like jaizei thinks what you are doing is "…bad, always." It isn't. Its great and it helps people and their tortoises. Knowing that someone cares and is interested in their problem is often enough to encourage new people to stick around and get the help they need.
Obviously, in those instances it was not safe because the people practicing it did not take the necessary steps to ensure that it was. It is not a hard concept when you think logically. Some people drive recklessly; do you still drive? How many statistics would you like me to post about unsafe drivers causing accidents and deaths before you accept the fact that driving is always unsafe and no one should ever drive.
Perhaps the wrong information that needs to be corrected wouldn't need be if parrots hadn't spread it so well. You're trying to fix a problem using the same flawed method that created it.
Good example. Very good. I'm not going to say no one should drive, but are you going to post your statistics of accidents and fatalities and then argue that driving is not dangerous? We both agree that driving is dangerous.
The difference between driving and letting a tortoise run loose, which are both dangerous activities, is at least twofold:
1. There is benefit to driving that outweighs the risk, at least for me. Not so in the case of free-roaming tortoises.
2. There is not a practical, safe alliterative to driving. To do business, earn a living, and maintain my families household, driving is a necessity in my situation. There is not a safer, better, easy alternative. In the case of free roaming tortoises, there is a safer, better, easy alternative. Simply put them in the right enclosure.
This is an age old problem, isn't it? A sword in the hand of a bad guy is bad. A sword in the hand of a good guy is good, yes? No?
Your argument is that all swords are bad all the time. I disagree.
Someone parroting good info is absolutely a defense against someone parroting bad info. We see examples here all the time. To use my previous sand substrate example: A new person will join and relate that they've read somewhere that sand was a great substrate for "desert" species. Several long term members, who have never kept a tortoise on sand, will parrot info they've learned from Yvonne, Will, Ascott or someone else who DOES have first hand experience keeping a tortoise on sand, and politely and tactfully let them know that they've been misinformed. At some point, a member with first hand experience will join the discussion and confirm with experience based examples what the new poster has already been told.
In general I also would never recommend to let a tortoise roam in the house. But it's not a fact that roaming is always dangerous and an enclosure is always safe. According to statistics an encloure might be safer in most cases, but it depends on the situation and the enclosure.
I also never understood this "no sandy substrate" rule. So many people here keep their tortoises outside on natural dirt (which always contains sand, depending on the soil quality it can even consist mostly of sand) without problems. But if someone says they use a mix of soil and a little sand everybody advises against it. I always wondered about that...
The only cases of impaction I've ever seen were because of orchid bark.
I don't mind parroting, we don't have to experience everything ourselves to learn from it, but I try to only parrot information if I really understand and agree on it.
I also never understood this "no sandy substrate" rule. So many people here keep their tortoises outside on natural dirt (which always contains sand, depending on the soil quality it can even consist mostly of sand) without problems. But if someone says they use a mix of soil and a little sand everybody advises against it. I always wondered about that...
The only cases of impaction I've ever seen were because of orchid bark.
I don't mind parroting, we don't have to experience everything ourselves to learn from it, but I try to only parrot information if I really understand and agree on it.
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Looks like a good time for a parrot to mention some coiled bulbs can cause eye damage.............
Yvonne! I just love to read your posts!
In my opinion, if those of us that parrot, didn't parrot, very few people would get the help they are asking for. We have very few members really, with years of experienced with different species that participate in helping others. I parrot what I learned from tfo and specially from a particular member that has done the homework, done the experiments, has the experience, goes above and beyond to help people and freely shares all this with us and a person i feel is very honest and upfront and that I would trust with my life. The few experienced members that participate, just can't be on here 24\7
Also, you don't have to be an experienced keeper of anything to know how to do it correctly, if the person or place you learned from can back it up with proof. Teachers, doctors and many other professionals parrot every day. As for how I will say things, well depends on my mood. Some days I don't mind holding your hand and stroking your sensitive self, other days I may be sick of reading the same question, seconded thread, same day, asking the same question, that I have read for the thousandth time since joining and might just give it to you straight. After all, I'm human, and that's just the way humans were developed, to have different moods.
Also, you don't have to be an experienced keeper of anything to know how to do it correctly, if the person or place you learned from can back it up with proof. Teachers, doctors and many other professionals parrot every day. As for how I will say things, well depends on my mood. Some days I don't mind holding your hand and stroking your sensitive self, other days I may be sick of reading the same question, seconded thread, same day, asking the same question, that I have read for the thousandth time since joining and might just give it to you straight. After all, I'm human, and that's just the way humans were developed, to have different moods.
M
Maggie Cummings
Guest
I won't "parrot jack sh** about coiled bulbs. I had a yearling Sulcata named Tony Stewart, who was blinded by a coiled bulb, his clutch mate suffered damage in one eye, and I got rid of the third before he showed any damage. Tony went thru more pain then I have ever before or since see in a young tort. His eyes ran like rivers, they were swollen and red, he drooled, he couldn't eat. It took almost a year and lots of pain injections, eye drops and teaching him how to be blind, for him to be almost alright.
I don't "parrot" coil bulbs are bad, I hurt 3 tortoises because I didn't know. Now I scream it from the rooftops. That, gentlemen, is my personal experience.
Us Germans are blunt as well....
