Concerned! NERD

[Redfoot NERD]

If for any reason any of you may think that I've been "overly" concerned - in the past - about 'husbandry' [ enclosure - temps - lighting - diet, etc. ] from whomever.. how I ( seemingly react ) respond at times ------ watch this!

I'm asking a specific Q? and would appreciate any specific objective responses and/or answers.

I understand [ never accept ] the fact that there are those that love to research ( like as if they thrive on contradiction and confusion ) and analize til they're paralized..... and those that literally have said to me "I've kept ? species for 3 weeks.. so I do have some experience!". And post answers and advice that doesn't apply, matter, or is so detailed and confusing that it is virtually of no useful application. OR have absolutely no experience whatsoever with the species in Q?.. and any experience? they do have is not only 'short-term' but is with a tortoise from a different "HEMISPHERE"!

The Q? is: Do those that give "advice" know or care how important it is to have 'hands-on' experience to ensure the best care for any particular species of tortoise or turtle?

Anyone else feel the same way????? This is not about 'wanting-to-be-heard' or trying to help or some other ego or emotionally driven mind-set. This is about 'what are the best "husbandry practices" for tortoises?'

I guess this is more than ONE Q? Generally speaking we love these critters that are tuff and resilient.. [ discounting 'abuse' before we acquire them ].. "Why are so many having so many health issues with their tortoises?" Could it be the advice given?

I can only encourage anyone to insist on asking what experience ANY given 'care-giver' has!

Objective responses please?

Terry K

 

[terryo]

Terry, I have raised boxies and water turtles for over 30 years. I did everything the natural way...never incubated eggs. If they hatched out there that was fine...if not..it was meant to be. Same with water turtles. Most RES eggs I threw out. Still I never give advice. Sometimes I tell what I do, but never say.."you should do this" or "my way is the best way". NEVER! Tortoises...I know nothing about. Having a Tortoise for two years gives me NO experience as far as I'm concerned. People can and should research what other experienced keepers are doing and then draw their own conclusions, and do what works best for them. But....how long does a person have to keep and raise animals before they are considered an experienced keeper? If a person raises something with great results...smooth...healthy for 10 years, and another keeper raises something for 25 years and still hasn't gotten it right...well, then you have to draw your own conclusions. Everyone should do research. Why should someone take only one persons advice? There are many breeders out there that have raised beautiful tortoises for many years, and each do something different. Research, and combining good information is the key to success....IMHO. Was this what you asked....or am I way off base?

 

[Tom]

This subject came up when I first joined the forum a few months ago. It was one of the first posts that I responded to. I still feel the same way.

I see responders with a single tortoise that they've had for a year or two, giving advice, sometimes incorrect or about a different species, as if they have a lifetime of experience. I can't understand this. The benefit of this forum is being able to gain from the knowledge of experienced keepers like Yvonne, Maggie, GB, many others, and you, Terry K. The downside is that anybody, from anywhere in the world can throw in their two cents, even if they have no experience with what they are advising about. My response as to what to do about this would be "buyer beware".

Personally, I have no problem taking advice from someone who doesn't have experience with a species. Maybe they've read something somewhere that I haven't. As long as they don't pass themselves off as an experienced keeper, I don't have any problem with somebody making a suggestion based on the experience that they do have. I've kept redfoots in the past, but I don't feel comfortable giving advice on the specifics of diet or husbandry when there are other, much more experienced keepers here, that are much better qualified than me to answer. I wouldn't hesitate to offer general advice, however. For example, how to raise humidity or what substrates do what. I have many years of direct experience with different substrates and raising humidity in tortoise and reptile enclosures. I'm not however going to tell some one how to house an adult sulcata over winter in NY. I have no experience with this.

An answer from a first time leopard keeper with a hatchling is just going to carry less weight with me than an answer from Richard Fife. Its just that simple. I appreciate people trying to be helpful, I just think some people get a little carried away with it some of the time. I'm guilty of it too.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Terry, I have raised boxies and water turtles for over 30 years. I did everything the natural way...never incubated eggs. If they hatched out there that was fine...if not..it was meant to be. Same with water turtles. Most RES eggs I threw out. Still I never give advice. Sometimes I tell what I do, but never say.."you should do this" or "my way is the best way". NEVER! Tortoises...I know nothing about. Having a Tortoise for two years gives me NO experience as far as I'm concerned. People can and should research what other experienced keepers are doing and then draw their own conclusions, and do what works best for them. But....how long does a person have to keep and raise animals before they are considered an experienced keeper? If a person raises something with great results...smooth...healthy for 10 years, and another keeper raises something for 25 years and still hasn't gotten it right...well, then you have to draw your own conclusions. Everyone should do research. Why should someone take only one persons advice? There are many breeders out there that have raised beautiful tortoises for many years, and each do something different. Research, and combining good information is the key to success....IMHO. Was this what you asked....or am I way off base?

TerryO.. you have enough experience raising a hatchling redfoot with a good/proper environment/enclosure.. with only 2 years experience! And I will refer anyone to you that has the desire to create a similar type habitat for their redfoot. Whether you know it or not you have covered the basics for keeping a redfoot hatchling and raising it up to become a smooth-shelled 2 year-old.... the most critical time in a redfoots life!!! Or any tortoise as far as that is concerned.

ALL hatchling tortoises have basic needs.. which vary from species to species. SOME basics are right for ALL hatchlings.. but ALL basics are not right for ALL hatchlings ------ and that's where years of experience comes in. [ that's not deep theology.. is it? ]

It's those that "paint-all-tortoises-with-the-same-brush" OR those that insist that ALL basics are good forever without considering
"updates". No need to elaborate on that one.. is there? ( 1 example? )

PRIME EXAMPLE - there are "websites" galore on how to raise sulcatas and redfoots, etc., etc. If you were raising a sulcata hatchling and didn't want it to look like 99% of all those you had seen on the internet.. and came upon Richard Fife's website FIRST and saw how his 2-3-4, etc. year-old hatchlings look.. it only makes good sense to follow his lead. He shows how his look.. he explains what he does ( differently ). The only reason anyone would "research" further is that they are curious what others say or they don't have anything better to do.. or they have been deceived into thinking - "If it works, don't fix it" - isn't true.

So researching in 'most' cases shows how not to do it.

Sure there are a few breeders out there that produce different ( good looking hatchlings ) species and some even have their own caresheet! Ask them what 'their' caresheet produces after 2-3-4, etc. years! If they can't/won't produce results........... heed Tom's warning - "Buyer Beware!".

NERD

 

[chadk]

I just had a conversation with someone who had a sulcata hatchling from one of the guys mentioned above... His caresheet he passed along was very high level. The newbie owner of the new little tort had to make many assumptions and ended up with a little tort getting fairly pyramided at a young age.

Was this because the breeder was wrong? Was this because the breeder did not now how to raise healthy torts? No. It came down to 1) the caresheet was not detailed enough and 2) the person trusted that what was given was all they needed to know. For example, the caresheet said nothing about humidity and the role it played in raising hatchlings. I was surprised at this, and poked around on his website. Sure enough, I find the info I was looking for, but it was not included in the main caresheet. And that is just one example. There was no details on UVA vs UVB and what kind of bulbs were recommended. And it recommends vegetables and commercial tort food. In context, this may not seem like a big deal, but for this newbie I was talking to, she had filled in the blanks the best she could and thought she was doing great.

That's why I love forums like this. The true experts and researches do the work, but aren't always great at passing the info along in an way the average new keeper is going to understand. It is like sitting for an hour listening a University Prof lecture, and just not getting it. Then you talk to a study partner after class and he is able to explain it in a way that makes perfect sense. And further, you are now armed with more info and able to ask some specific and deeper questions than you were before.

Also, one persons very detailed care sheet that works 100% for them, may not work so well for person B even if he follows it exactly as written. Why? Well, one reason may be that person A lives in a high humidity area on the gulf coast and raises everything outdoors. Another person lives in Arizona, and another in Alaska. Is there a one sized fits all approach? Well, yes and no. You have to get the basic concepts and adapt to your situation. It's like cooking. Some folks only know how to follow directions exactly as written. But they are disappointed at the results at times. They do not realize that slight variations in ingredients, variation in the type of stove used, variation in type of pan used, etc etc will change the results.

 

[Madkins007]

The Q? is: Do those that give "advice" know or care how important it is to have 'hands-on' experience to ensure the best care for any particular species of tortoise or turtle?

Anyone else feel the same way????? This is not about 'wanting-to-be-heard' or trying to help or some other ego or emotionally driven mind-set. This is about 'what are the best "husbandry practices" for tortoises?'

I think there are two sides to this question:

1. The role of the open forum.

This is an open forum, where anyone can ask, and anyone can answer (well, unless they are banned, etc.) There are benefits and problems with any such open forum as you have often pointed out.

It is up to the individual, in any open setting, to discern the good from the bad, or the right from the wrong. Even the Bible says "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety." (Proverbs 11:14 KJV)

In an open forum, each can share from their strengths, from their experience and research, and even from their mistakes. Sure, there is some trash and bad stuff, but how do you clear that out without messing up the benefits?

2. Experience vs education.

Surely you are not suggesting that all of the 'old hands' agree on every detail? There are a lot of people who have successfully bred beautiful Red-foots who have their own systems and opinions- many of which are wildly at odds with other well-experienced keepers.

In fact, many experienced people- whether tortoise breeders, oil painters, or rocket scientists- are more experts in their own system than experts in the overall skill. For example, you are THE worlds top expert in the Terry Kilgore Method of Raising (and photographing) Red-foot Tortoises.

While that is a cool thing, it does not automatically make you an expert in native habitat, digestive processes, taxonomy, calcium metabolism, carpentry, lighting physics, nutritional needs, or hundreds of other disciplines related to raising tortoises. That is not automatically a bad thing- no one is an expert in everything.

Education and research, however, is what helps us get better and better at this.

....................................

My question and challenge to you (and other breeders with many hatchlings) is why have you not done any research of your own?

You raise many beautiful tortoises. Have you ever actually tried them under controlled conditions with and without UVB to see if there is a benefit? Tested your diet against other published diets to see if one produces healthier animals?

Like you said- "this is about 'what are the best "husbandry practices" for tortoises". Imagine how cool it would be if you could say that you did actual, controlled, and well-designed research on some of these issues that people debate.

It is going to be years before I could do anything like that with my herd, if ever, but it would be SO COOL to be able to say "I KNOW this method of (lighting, diet, substrate, etc.) works because I did the research and here is the data- this group showed clear benefits as measured by this and this." It would be like Richard Fife and his pyramiding experiment.

Yeah, yeah. I know- this was a long reply and you really don't like long replies. Sorry!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I'm getting the responses I expected....... from those I expected..

NERD

 

[Madkins007]

Of course you are- you've asked this before. It is the definition of insanity to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.

 

[-EJ]

When I meet young gifted people who I know are going to make it one day... I always tell them to never let it go to your head. When it does and you find yourself thinking you actually are the expert... that is when all thinking ceases... and... ego kicks in. All rational thought goes out the window and it seems people think they can ride on the ego and not the actual knowledge that got them where they are.

Terry... you've reached that point a long time ago.

This is the old experience/knowledge debate.

Sorry... I do a great deal of reading and networking. Recent experiences have been a disaster... but I learned from them.

Needless to say... experience can only go so far. Some are better at interpeting that experince than others... another point.

As I type this I seem to recall I answered in similar fashion the first time around.

 

[RichardS]

Interesting thread. I'll weigh in and kick the hornets nest.

There is nothing wrong with regurgitating information that has been read or heard, as long as the person doesn't pass himself off as an authority on the subject. I refuse to use the word expert, but I will get to that later. Undergraduate students have very little original thought. By and large, students read, take notes, go to lecture, and dump it all down on paper come exam time. That's all part of being a good student, whether we're talking, biology, business, or animal husbandry. Postgraduate and postdoctoral researcher is where the original stuff happens.

I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb by saying we all have one thing we all have in common, and that is we are all hobbyists. Some of us generate income by selling hatchlings, but few, if any, are professional breeders or tortoise farmers. I know there are a couple of retailers that participate on the board, but that's different. My point is, few people in the world can actually claim to be tortoise experts. Furthermore, real experts, never claim to be such. They don't have to, because there is nothing to prove.

Advice given and received on the internet should be take with a grain of salt. These forums tend to generate a tremendous amount of group think based on the opinions of those who are perceived to be expert. How many of us have published a scientific paper?

All that being said, online communities have advanced hobbies and generally educate those who are interested. Just understand that only a small fraction of those who own tortoise are involved with these forums. Millions of people own reptiles, how many members does this site have? Some of us will always remain legends in our own mind.

 

[-EJ]

I gotta disagree with you there. I've met quite a few... kids... some in highschool and some in college who you knew would become herpetologists. Some became respected herpetologists without the degree...

Disagree with you on the second point also... I've met professionals in the herpetology 'business'... who have no interest in herps but are fantastic 'herpetologists'... not many... but a few. I know quite a few that do not keep reptiles. I ask these people a great deal of question...

Totally agree with you on the third point...

On the fourth point... no desire to. I asked a prominent editor of about 60+ herp journals (his number, not mine) if he actually understood the language that they use in journals... he said no (I know he was fibbing and being nice but he understood the point). He further explained that 'that is the language they use'. The current journals are more 'common person' friendly. Anyone can write for any journal... (ask AH). The key is passing mustard.

Final point... on target. I'm trying to get this point across on another forum.

Interesting thread. I'll weigh in and kick the hornets nest.

There is nothing wrong with regurgitating information that has been read or heard, as long as the person doesn't pass himself off as an authority on the subject. I refuse to use the word expert, but I will get to that later. Undergraduate students have very little original thought. By and large, students read, take notes, go to lecture, and dump it all down on paper come exam time. That's all part of being a good student, whether we're talking, biology, business, or animal husbandry. Postgraduate and postdoctoral researcher is where the original stuff happens.

I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb by saying we all have one thing we all have in common, and that is we are all hobbyists. Some of us generate income by selling hatchlings, but few, if any, are professional breeders or tortoise farmers. I know there are a couple of retailers that participate on the board, but that's different. My point is, few people in the world can actually claim to be tortoise experts. Furthermore, real experts, never claim to be such. They don't have to, because there is nothing to prove.

Advice given and received on the internet should be take with a grain of salt. These forums tend to generate a tremendous amount of group think based on the opinions of those who are perceived to be expert. How many of us have published a scientific paper?

All that being said, online communities have advanced hobbies and generally educate those who are interested. Just understand that only a small fraction of those who own tortoise are involved with these forums. Millions of people own reptiles, how many members does this site have? Some of us will always remain legends in our own mind.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I asked if we could get those with actual "hands-on" experience to share info on tortoise husbandry.. and implied that those that don't to learn from them. It wasn't about anybody in particular.

And the next thing we see is the typical egos and emotions I asked to not see.

Why are y'all attacking me and each other? What does this have to do with 'experience' with tortoise husbandry?

Where are the objective responses? [ only a couple so far ]

Terry K

 

[RichardS]

I met quite a few... kids... some in highschool and some in college who you knew would become herpetologists. Some became respected herpetologists without the degree...

I agree with that completely, but I was not suggesting a degree is required to be a great tortoise keeper or herpetologist. I was simply illustrating that reading other people’s work and later repeating it is a common and acceptable way to learn. The parallel to university students was only meant to qualify my opinion.

I've met professionals in the herpetology 'business'... who have no interest in herps but are fantastic 'herpetologists'... not many... but a few. I know quite a few that do not keep reptiles. I ask these people a great deal of question...

My experience has been very similar. Most are in the field too often to keep anything at home base! We’re on the exact same page here. I was referring the majority of the people on these forums. Of course allowing wiggle room for a few exceptions. ☺

 

[Candy]

The Q? is: Do those that give "advice" know or care how important it is to have 'hands-on' experience to ensure the best care for any particular species of tortoise or turtle?

Anyone else feel the same way????? This is not about 'wanting-to-be-heard' or trying to help or some other ego or emotionally driven mind-set. This is about 'what are the best "husbandry practices" for tortoises?'

I think there are two sides to this question:

1. The role of the open forum.

This is an open forum, where anyone can ask, and anyone can answer (well, unless they are banned, etc.) There are benefits and problems with any such open forum as you have often pointed out.

It is up to the individual, in any open setting, to discern the good from the bad, or the right from the wrong. Even the Bible says "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety." (Proverbs 11:14 KJV)

In an open forum, each can share from their strengths, from their experience and research, and even from their mistakes. Sure, there is some trash and bad stuff, but how do you clear that out without messing up the benefits?

2. Experience vs education.

Surely you are not suggesting that all of the 'old hands' agree on every detail? There are a lot of people who have successfully bred beautiful Red-foots who have their own systems and opinions- many of which are wildly at odds with other well-experienced keepers.

In fact, many experienced people- whether tortoise breeders, oil painters, or rocket scientists- are more experts in their own system than experts in the overall skill. For example, you are THE worlds top expert in the Terry Kilgore Method of Raising (and photographing) Red-foot Tortoises.

While that is a cool thing, it does not automatically make you an expert in native habitat, digestive processes, taxonomy, calcium metabolism, carpentry, lighting physics, nutritional needs, or hundreds of other disciplines related to raising tortoises. That is not automatically a bad thing- no one is an expert in everything.

Education and research, however, is what helps us get better and better at this.

....................................

My question and challenge to you (and other breeders with many hatchlings) is why have you not done any research of your own?

You raise many beautiful tortoises. Have you ever actually tried them under controlled conditions with and without UVB to see if there is a benefit? Tested your diet against other published diets to see if one produces healthier animals?

Like you said- "this is about 'what are the best "husbandry practices" for tortoises". Imagine how cool it would be if you could say that you did actual, controlled, and well-designed research on some of these issues that people debate.

It is going to be years before I could do anything like that with my herd, if ever, but it would be SO COOL to be able to say "I KNOW this method of (lighting, diet, substrate, etc.) works because I did the research and here is the data- this group showed clear benefits as measured by this and this." It would be like Richard Fife and his pyramiding experiment.

Yeah, yeah. I know- this was a long reply and you really don't like long replies. Sorry!

Madkins I love your response to this thread I can always tell you do your research. The way I look at it is part of being a teacher is researching and experience if you don't do both then how can you teach anyone anything? I actually think that we had a thread like this before and it didn't end up very good.

 

[jackrat]

I know in my case,it didn't take very long to figure out who to pay attention to.I spoke to some of you on the phone,which helped a lot.I try not to throw advice out there,as I haven't been keeping for that long.I do know that the advice I've followed has been good,as my torts are all healthy and active.The only thing I'm waiting for is eggs,and thing are looking promising on that front.

 

[-EJ]

By your own admission... you were trolling.

Experience is learned. You either have practical experience... or... learned experience. Learned experience can be practical... or... book experiecne.

As to the 'objective' responses... what are you looking for? I've seen some quite objective responses to this post. I've also read some quite slanted... I'll leave it up to you to determine which is which.

I'll give you a little hint as to a nonobjective post... the OPs post.

I asked if we could get those with actual "hands-on" experience to share info on tortoise husbandry.. and implied that those that don't to learn from them. It wasn't about anybody in particular.

And the next thing we see is the typical egos and emotions I asked to not see.

Why are y'all attacking me and each other? What does this have to do with 'experience' with tortoise husbandry?

Where are the objective responses? [ only a couple so far ]

Terry K

 

[Maggie Cummings]

When I read a thread like this I always feel like ya'll are talking about me and I gave bad advice to someone.
My experience is mostly with Sulcata and Gopherus agassizii. When I give advice on those 2 species I always say "this is my experience" or "this is how I keep my animals". The only experience I have with redfoots is keeping DoctorCosmonauts when he goes on break. So I mostly don't give advice on Redfoots except when the question asked is similar to what is involved in Sulcata or G.agassizii. Frankly I hate to give advice and I seriously hate it when a newbie shoots me a PM and asks advice. I am not exactly sure what your question is here but I don't do a whole lot of research on the animals I keep, I have learned from personal experience and from asking my sister. So I guess that's pretty lame but that's how it is with me. When I lived in Calif I did a whole lot of turtle and tortoise rescue. I rehabbed many turtle and tortoises. I started doing local work so I was home to care for these animals. I learned what I learned from experience with those animals. I don't do so much rescue here in Oregon, and I guess that's ok, but I do miss the hands on work of getting in a beaten up box turtle or a RES with shell rot. I miss that. My sister was always coming over and I'd see her walking up my drive way carrying a box and I knew I was about to get something good. My heart would start beating harder and my forehead would break out in a sweat. I have a chest full of medicine to treat wounds. I have habitats for the rescues that I don't treat any more but that's how I learned, from hands on treating of beaten up or seriously injured turtles or tortoises. And that's what I want to do. I don't want to give advice, I want to treat a wound. So I hope I haven't offended any one. I don't want to do any long term tortoise keeping involved in control groups or any of that type of thing. I am not smart enough for that. I keep some animals for fun. How much fun is a 2 legged turtle? Lots!!!
I give advice here because I'm a moderator and that's what's expected. But I try to give good advice and I try to not give Sulcata advice for a Redfoot. Did that make sense?

 

[Tom]

Maggie, I think I can safely say that nobody is talking about you here. Three decades of hands on experience makes you very qualified to give whatever advice you want in my opinion. I've never seen you give bad advice.

You can advise me anytime you like.

 

[Madkins007]

When I read a thread like this I always feel like ya'll are talking about me and I gave bad advice to someone.

Shucks! I figured he was talking about me, my small herd of three measly years and tendency to quote research.

---

When I read a thread like this I always feel like ya'll are talking about me and I gave bad advice to someone.

Shucks! I figured he was talking about me, my small herd of three measly years and tendency to quote research.

 

[Candy]

I thought the same thing Madkins. It doesn't matter though because we love your research so you just keep on passing your information on for us.