Responding to posts or giving advice...

[Tom]

I don't think there is anything wrong with parroting correct information even if you do not have hands on experience with that particular type of tortoise. How many times a day or a week is the same exact question asked? And therefore how many times is the exact same information given out? I'm talking basic care questions here. Sometimes number matter how often a person is referred to or actually given the link to a thread they somehow don't bother to read it. And if it wasn't for people who are patient enough to repeatedly answer these questions, even if they are just repeating information they have gotten here, then the information would not get to these people.

I think you have a point here too. If someone has read responses that say sand is a bad substrate 500 times, I see no reason why they can't tell a new person sand is not a good substrate.

This really is a case-by-case issue.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

There is nothing wrong with " parroting" but way back when I was in grade school a teacher proved people are bad parrots , if you put 10 people in a row , and you tell no. 1 person something buy the time the story gets to no. 10 person the story is a mess ! As always @Tom is right but don't rule out @ CharlieM 's point out cause he has a point . Some new people do miss say great advice to the point it's bad advice . Hope all had a great Christmas and many more !

 

[teresaf]

I'm certainly not one to want to regulate. That's not what this is about.
Just discussing how people choose to deliver information.
"In my opinion" is far from concrete and very grey.

Many people have heard the same info so many times they really have no idea who said it first so they really can't quote the reputable source even though the info IS correct. In that case 'In my opinion' doesn't cut it. I have said something like 'many here on this forum....'.

 

[teresaf]

There is nothing wrong with " parroting" but way back when I was in grade school a teacher proved people are bad parrots , if you put 10 people in a row , and you tell no. 1 person something buy the time the story gets to no. 10 person the story is a mess ! As always @Tom is right but don't rule out @ CharlieM 's point out cause he has a point . Some new people do miss say great advice to the point it's bad advice . Hope all had a great Christmas and many more !

Yeah, luckily this isn't exactly the same though. This is like the first person telling all the rest and then asking all those people to repeat it...story may change a BIT but not that much. Lol

 

[Big Charlie]

I will respectfully disagree with "in my opinion" as a good preface. That is what we already see to much.

I tend to use "in my opinion" even in matters where I'm 100% sure of my facts.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Yeah, luckily this isn't exactly the same though. This is like the first person telling all the rest and then asking all those people to repeat it...story may change a BIT but not that much. Lol

It is the same thing and after you get 5000 posts you'll see it more and more ! But have a great day

 

[Turtlepete]

I try to only report from my own experiences. "In my opinion" is a good preface. I rarely give much advice on this forum since I defer to those with much more experience than me. I am one of those who mostly comes here for help rather than to offer help.

To chime in here, the difficulty with opinion is that in the modern age it has become viewed as a protection to whatever statement is made afterward. These days, we seem to have some sort of misguided belief that opinion protects someone from being wrong. This is how concrete scientific facts such as climate change have become a political opinion. If I am speaking of something that is a fact, I'm not going to preface it with "in my opinion", as that would devalue whatever comes next. I'm not going to say "In my opinion, the earth is round" just to soften the blow when I'm dealing with someone with the misguided belief that the earth is round. It can be your opinion that roses are prettier than violets; it can also be your opinion that sulcatas should be raised aquatic because the desert floods every summer (this claim was made here once). The former is based on your perception of beauty and quite subject to opinion, the latter is based on your misguided stupidity and refusal to educate yourself.

tldr; opinion does not protect you from being wrong, and believing that it does is incredibly damaging to a community where we deal with living organisms, the husbandry of which is mainly based on fact. It can be your opinion that redfoots are more suited to african climates; this claim would make you wrong and, quite plainly, stupid, and prefacing it with "in my opinion" does not protect you from being wrong.

To further discuss the difficulty with opinion, we have to address something mentioned here. Using "in my opinion" to soften the blow. We don't want to chase off sensitive new members by hitting them with cold hard facts, so we use a more diplomatic approach to appeal to their sensitivity. The problem here is we are treating the symptoms of a problem that we, as a whole, as a global society, have created. Catering to sensitivity is what has gotten us where we are. The more we cater to sensitivity, the more sensitive we as a culture become, until we can't hear the cold hard facts because god forbid it might offend us. This is probably one of the most damaging phenomena to plague the spread of information in the modern age, and its a problem we are contributing to every day.

Want to be diplomatic? Don't be an ***. If someone says something blatantly wrong, like "its safe for my tortoise to roam the house", don't call them an idiot who is hell-bent on the destruction of their shelled companion, someone who eats babies and dines with the devil. Emotion serves no purpose. Quite plainly tell them, "You are wrong. Here is why". This is all that is needed. Excess emotion never helps anything.

Now, "parroting" as it has come to be called is an altogether different beast. In some ways, it serves a purpose; people can "parrot" information they learned from a more experienced keeper to help educate newcomers. This is a good thing. But the issue is that this information is quite often not as trustworthy as it may seem, and some parroted information on this forum is completely wrong, yet repeated over and over again because it is accepted as the norm. This is where an issue arises. When a group accepts something wrong as the norm, nobody bothers to challenge the claim or educate themselves beyond the false claim because they have been led to believe in its veracity. No advancement is made because we already think we have all the pieces of the puzzle.

Lets be honest folks; buried under the dozens of threads about a tortoise wearing a hat or a sweater (cute enough), the main goal of this forum as I see it is advancement in husbandry of the shelled animals we all know and love. If you want to contribute to that advancement, educate yourself as best as possible. If you repeat something, research it to the best of your ability to ensure it's true. Challenge claims that seem senseless. Take everything you hear with a grain of salt.

Happy Holidays.

 

[leigti]

So let's hear some examples of blatantly wrong information that is excepted as truth by The majority of people on this forum. You say people are parroting wrong information so give examples. And it is not my job to fix society and to shelter all the thin skinned people who can't take information is fact. If I choose to "soften the blow" then I will, it depends on the situation and quite frankly the mood I'm in. There are a whole lot of societal issues that I have no control over.
I think when it comes right down to it we are here to learn and help animals, but that means you need to deal with the people who are ultimately taking care of these animals. There are many ways to do that, many approaches. And I think as a group over all the members of this forum pretty much cover all the approaches. Which is a good thing in the end.

 

[mike taylor]

I can show you two examples of tortoises raised right and wrong . Harry was youngish when I got him Yvonne and Tom helped me setup the right enclosure for him . Sally was in Austin Texas in the dry air hardly no humidity so you can say semi arid environment . Look at the different carapace shapes .The first picture is Sally the second is Harry .
Pictures say a thousand words. I will take advise from this forum over the net any day .

 

[SteveW]

I can't give you 'blatantly wrong' but an example of information that is at least logically curious is the discrepancy between organic greens (highly recommended, don't buy anything but) and pressure treated wood (best way to build an outdoor pen). From a toxicological standpoint, this makes no sense. Any produce in a store is treated with materials specifically designed for low vertebrate toxicity, a short half life, and minimal residual. Could there be health issues? Of course. Evidence along that line? Nope.
Conversely, pressure treated wood is pressure treated with cadmium, chromium, and arsenic. All highly toxic metals, all can persist for decades and all have been shown to leach into surrounding soil. While I know of no examples of effects from the latter, from a risk analysis perspective it presents a far greater threat. This is not reflected in the aforementioned common knowledge.

Regarding parroting; in addition to being annoying, it is hardly compelling. I don't refer here to linked research articles or 'here's what I have observed' statements, but the drag race to be the first to refer people to the forum care sheets. The care sheets aren't hard to find, for that matter, Tom isn't hard to find. No intermediaries yelling 'me too' are needed.
Also of dubious value are the self-referential statements like 'This forum has the best information'. Really, what source doesn't think that?

While I concur that biological organism and there care are more fact than opinion, I don't think I'm young enough to ascribe all societies ills that direction.

Geesh, what a rant. Somebody needs a beer.

 

[teresaf]

I can't give you 'blatantly wrong' but an example of information that is at least logically curious is the discrepancy between organic greens (highly recommended, don't buy anything but) and pressure treated wood (best way to build an outdoor pen). From a toxicological standpoint, this makes no sense. Any produce in a store is treated with materials specifically designed for low vertebrate toxicity, a short half life, and minimal residual. Could there be health issues? Of course. Evidence along that line? Nope.
Conversely, pressure treated wood is pressure treated with cadmium, chromium, and arsenic. All highly toxic metals, all can persist for decades and all have been shown to leach into surrounding soil. While I know of no examples of effects from the latter, from a risk analysis perspective it presents a far greater threat. This is not reflected in the aforementioned common knowledge.

Regarding parroting; in addition to being annoying, it is hardly compelling. I don't refer here to linked research articles or 'here's what I have observed' statements, but the drag race to be the first to refer people to the forum care sheets. The care sheets aren't hard to find, for that matter, Tom isn't hard to find. No intermediaries yelling 'me too' are needed.
Also of dubious value are the self-referential statements like 'This forum has the best information'. Really, what source doesn't think that?

While I concur that biological organism and there care are more fact than opinion, I don't think I'm young enough to ascribe all societies ills that direction.

Geesh, what a rant. Somebody needs a beer.

How about a six pack dude....!

 

[DutchieAmanda]

Emotion serves no purpose. Quite plainly tell them, "You are wrong. Here is why". This is all that is needed. Excess emotion never helps anything.

Ever thought about moving to The Netherlands? They say us Dutchies are blunt, haha!

However, in my opinion () if it helps our cause to promote a better care for our shelled friends, a bit of softening could be beneficial. If this makes it easier for others to accept your advice...

I also think it's a cultural thing. Because I know Dutchies are often said to be blunt, I try to be extra polite...

Enjoy your beer!

 

[Yvonne G]

If I were to say, "in my experience, blah, blah..." it really wouldn't mean much because in my experience, I raised a clutch of pine cone-looking yellow foots, a very pyramided leopard, and a couple of pretty bumpy Aldabran tortoises. So seeing those, why would anyone be interested in taking my advice?

On the other hand, I've been doing rehab on sick and injured turtles and tortoises for over 20 years, so "my experience" in that area is very good. I have a very good track record there.

But the way I raise my babies now, reverts back to all the info I've read and learned here on the Forum.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

To chime in here, the difficulty with opinion is that in the modern age it has become viewed as a protection to whatever statement is made afterward. These days, we seem to have some sort of misguided belief that opinion protects someone from being wrong. This is how concrete scientific facts such as climate change have become a political opinion. If I am speaking of something that is a fact, I'm not going to preface it with "in my opinion", as that would devalue whatever comes next. I'm not going to say "In my opinion, the earth is round" just to soften the blow when I'm dealing with someone with the misguided belief that the earth is round. It can be your opinion that roses are prettier than violets; it can also be your opinion that sulcatas should be raised aquatic because the desert floods every summer (this claim was made here once). The former is based on your perception of beauty and quite subject to opinion, the latter is based on your misguided stupidity and refusal to educate yourself.

tldr; opinion does not protect you from being wrong, and believing that it does is incredibly damaging to a community where we deal with living organisms, the husbandry of which is mainly based on fact. It can be your opinion that redfoots are more suited to african climates; this claim would make you wrong and, quite plainly, stupid, and prefacing it with "in my opinion" does not protect you from being wrong.

To further discuss the difficulty with opinion, we have to address something mentioned here. Using "in my opinion" to soften the blow. We don't want to chase off sensitive new members by hitting them with cold hard facts, so we use a more diplomatic approach to appeal to their sensitivity. The problem here is we are treating the symptoms of a problem that we, as a whole, as a global society, have created. Catering to sensitivity is what has gotten us where we are. The more we cater to sensitivity, the more sensitive we as a culture become, until we can't hear the cold hard facts because god forbid it might offend us. This is probably one of the most damaging phenomena to plague the spread of information in the modern age, and its a problem we are contributing to every day.

Want to be diplomatic? Don't be an ***. If someone says something blatantly wrong, like "its safe for my tortoise to roam the house", don't call them an idiot who is hell-bent on the destruction of their shelled companion, someone who eats babies and dines with the devil. Emotion serves no purpose. Quite plainly tell them, "You are wrong. Here is why". This is all that is needed. Excess emotion never helps anything.

Now, "parroting" as it has come to be called is an altogether different beast. In some ways, it serves a purpose; people can "parrot" information they learned from a more experienced keeper to help educate newcomers. This is a good thing. But the issue is that this information is quite often not as trustworthy as it may seem, and some parroted information on this forum is completely wrong, yet repeated over and over again because it is accepted as the norm. This is where an issue arises. When a group accepts something wrong as the norm, nobody bothers to challenge the claim or educate themselves beyond the false claim because they have been led to believe in its veracity. No advancement is made because we already think we have all the pieces of the puzzle.

Lets be honest folks; buried under the dozens of threads about a tortoise wearing a hat or a sweater (cute enough), the main goal of this forum as I see it is advancement in husbandry of the shelled animals we all know and love. If you want to contribute to that advancement, educate yourself as best as possible. If you repeat something, research it to the best of your ability to ensure it's true. Challenge claims that seem senseless. Take everything you hear with a grain of salt.

Happy Holidays.

You have a great gift for words that I wish I had at my age , and you use them very well ! I hope you know I mean this and I'm not trying to be silly

 

[SteveW]

You have a great gift for words that I wish I had at my age , and you use them very well ! I hope you know I mean this and I'm not trying to be silly

I think you mean, "in my experience...", ha

 

[Tom]

To chime in here, the difficulty with opinion is that in the modern age it has become viewed as a protection to whatever statement is made afterward. These days, we seem to have some sort of misguided belief that opinion protects someone from being wrong. This is how concrete scientific facts such as climate change have become a political opinion. If I am speaking of something that is a fact, I'm not going to preface it with "in my opinion", as that would devalue whatever comes next. I'm not going to say "In my opinion, the earth is round" just to soften the blow when I'm dealing with someone with the misguided belief that the earth is round. It can be your opinion that roses are prettier than violets; it can also be your opinion that sulcatas should be raised aquatic because the desert floods every summer (this claim was made here once). The former is based on your perception of beauty and quite subject to opinion, the latter is based on your misguided stupidity and refusal to educate yourself.

tldr; opinion does not protect you from being wrong, and believing that it does is incredibly damaging to a community where we deal with living organisms, the husbandry of which is mainly based on fact. It can be your opinion that redfoots are more suited to african climates; this claim would make you wrong and, quite plainly, stupid, and prefacing it with "in my opinion" does not protect you from being wrong.

To further discuss the difficulty with opinion, we have to address something mentioned here. Using "in my opinion" to soften the blow. We don't want to chase off sensitive new members by hitting them with cold hard facts, so we use a more diplomatic approach to appeal to their sensitivity. The problem here is we are treating the symptoms of a problem that we, as a whole, as a global society, have created. Catering to sensitivity is what has gotten us where we are. The more we cater to sensitivity, the more sensitive we as a culture become, until we can't hear the cold hard facts because god forbid it might offend us. This is probably one of the most damaging phenomena to plague the spread of information in the modern age, and its a problem we are contributing to every day.

Want to be diplomatic? Don't be an ***. If someone says something blatantly wrong, like "its safe for my tortoise to roam the house", don't call them an idiot who is hell-bent on the destruction of their shelled companion, someone who eats babies and dines with the devil. Emotion serves no purpose. Quite plainly tell them, "You are wrong. Here is why". This is all that is needed. Excess emotion never helps anything.

Now, "parroting" as it has come to be called is an altogether different beast. In some ways, it serves a purpose; people can "parrot" information they learned from a more experienced keeper to help educate newcomers. This is a good thing. But the issue is that this information is quite often not as trustworthy as it may seem, and some parroted information on this forum is completely wrong, yet repeated over and over again because it is accepted as the norm. This is where an issue arises. When a group accepts something wrong as the norm, nobody bothers to challenge the claim or educate themselves beyond the false claim because they have been led to believe in its veracity. No advancement is made because we already think we have all the pieces of the puzzle.

Lets be honest folks; buried under the dozens of threads about a tortoise wearing a hat or a sweater (cute enough), the main goal of this forum as I see it is advancement in husbandry of the shelled animals we all know and love. If you want to contribute to that advancement, educate yourself as best as possible. If you repeat something, research it to the best of your ability to ensure it's true. Challenge claims that seem senseless. Take everything you hear with a grain of salt.

Happy Holidays.

On the whole, I agree with your entire rant, as usual.

My issue with a "Just-the-facts…" approach is that some people mistake my matter-of-fact, emotionless statements as mean, degrading or insulting. Of course it is there own fault if they are some sort of hyper-sensitive baby that was raised getting those "participation trophies" and told every day what a special and unique snowflake they are, but the end result if they get themselves all in a tiff is that they leave. Some call me names and leave, or some just leave quietly and don't come back. The end result in either case is that their tortoise will not receive the help it needs. If my goal is to help a tortoise, I am forced to go through their human caretaker. Failure to deal with the human caretaker in a way that they are accepting and appreciative of, results in my own failure to help their tortoise.

It is in the interest of helping the tortoises of the world that I have chosen to try to be more diplomatic and cater to the wide variety of human emotion that is "out there" in the world.

 

[Tom]

Geesh, what a rant. Somebody needs a beer.

If you are referring to Pete, I am not sure he is old enough to indulge in beer just yet. He may type and form sentences with the wisdom and experience of a 50 year old ivy league professor, but he is actually still a young man.

And you are not such a bad wordsmith yourself Mr. Steve.

 

[SteveW]

If you are referring to Pete, I am not sure he is old enough to indulge in beer just yet. He may type and form sentences with the wisdom and experience of a 50 year old ivy league professor, but he is actually still a young man.

And you are not such a bad wordsmith yourself Mr. Steve.

I was actually implying (or trying to imply) that my rant was indicative of needing a beer (all better, by the way).
I'll keep working on the word smithery.

 

[jaizei]

To chime in here, the difficulty with opinion is that in the modern age it has become viewed as a protection to whatever statement is made afterward. These days, we seem to have some sort of misguided belief that opinion protects someone from being wrong. This is how concrete scientific facts such as climate change have become a political opinion. If I am speaking of something that is a fact, I'm not going to preface it with "in my opinion", as that would devalue whatever comes next. I'm not going to say "In my opinion, the earth is round" just to soften the blow when I'm dealing with someone with the misguided belief that the earth is round. It can be your opinion that roses are prettier than violets; it can also be your opinion that sulcatas should be raised aquatic because the desert floods every summer (this claim was made here once). The former is based on your perception of beauty and quite subject to opinion, the latter is based on your misguided stupidity and refusal to educate yourself.

tldr; opinion does not protect you from being wrong, and believing that it does is incredibly damaging to a community where we deal with living organisms, the husbandry of which is mainly based on fact. It can be your opinion that redfoots are more suited to african climates; this claim would make you wrong and, quite plainly, stupid, and prefacing it with "in my opinion" does not protect you from being wrong.

To further discuss the difficulty with opinion, we have to address something mentioned here. Using "in my opinion" to soften the blow. We don't want to chase off sensitive new members by hitting them with cold hard facts, so we use a more diplomatic approach to appeal to their sensitivity. The problem here is we are treating the symptoms of a problem that we, as a whole, as a global society, have created. Catering to sensitivity is what has gotten us where we are. The more we cater to sensitivity, the more sensitive we as a culture become, until we can't hear the cold hard facts because god forbid it might offend us. This is probably one of the most damaging phenomena to plague the spread of information in the modern age, and its a problem we are contributing to every day.

Want to be diplomatic? Don't be an ***. If someone says something blatantly wrong, like "its safe for my tortoise to roam the house", don't call them an idiot who is hell-bent on the destruction of their shelled companion, someone who eats babies and dines with the devil. Emotion serves no purpose. Quite plainly tell them, "You are wrong. Here is why". This is all that is needed. Excess emotion never helps anything.

Now, "parroting" as it has come to be called is an altogether different beast. In some ways, it serves a purpose; people can "parrot" information they learned from a more experienced keeper to help educate newcomers. This is a good thing. But the issue is that this information is quite often not as trustworthy as it may seem, and some parroted information on this forum is completely wrong, yet repeated over and over again because it is accepted as the norm. This is where an issue arises. When a group accepts something wrong as the norm, nobody bothers to challenge the claim or educate themselves beyond the false claim because they have been led to believe in its veracity. No advancement is made because we already think we have all the pieces of the puzzle.

Lets be honest folks; buried under the dozens of threads about a tortoise wearing a hat or a sweater (cute enough), the main goal of this forum as I see it is advancement in husbandry of the shelled animals we all know and love. If you want to contribute to that advancement, educate yourself as best as possible. If you repeat something, research it to the best of your ability to ensure it's true. Challenge claims that seem senseless. Take everything you hear with a grain of salt.

Happy Holidays.

Except in your example, they wouldn't be blatantly wrong. I think you're confusing fact and opinion. It's the opinion of some on this forum that roaming is unsafe. It is not fact. Unless you've been in this hypothetical person's house and would like to make substantive argument.

 

[jaizei]

I am just amazed at the attitude that is regularly displayed on the forum; it seems to be a case of not learning from the past. All of that wrong information that we constantly hear about in books, etc was the right information at one time. Saying that parroting is okay if it's something 'we' agree with is ridiculous. Parroting is bad, always. Someone who is 'parroting' is not able to make the distinction between good and bad advice and is just repeating the most popular opinion or opinion of people that are popular. I can not think of any reason why this behavior should be acceptable in any way. If someone 'learns' something, I take that to mean that they actually have some kind of basic understanding. Someone parroting does not. That difference seems to be lost here.