Concerned! NERD

[Redfoot NERD]

I wonder what makes anyone think that I and others haven't researched? Maybe we do our research by asking those that have actually learned from many years experience.. and not what is found on the internet or written in a book. How much does an author know about dealing with hatchlings coming out of an egg or how to get them "started" right and then keeping them 'growing' right if all they have experienced is observing tortoises in the wild. They're not going to go thru the "hatchling" process in the wild.. are they? I realize that sometimes a hatchling might surface.. but that's after they are really sought out and then our responsibility is to "duplicate" the environment they were found in.. there and then.. don't ya think?

Like some have said.. my and their experience has come from years of applying what has been told us by those that have demonstrated what they know.. and shown the results over the years - year after year after year. And that experience is what I was trying to ask to be done thru this thread.. not who's the expert or thinks they are the most experienced or who has a degree or who has authored a book or who has the best caresheet!?

I wasn't aware that this is a "recycled" thread - because if it is it didn't have much impact the first time around. How is sharing what has been successful for 25+ years by a number of keepers and breeders and then presnted in a simple pic documented format.. anything other than useful?

Who among us [ without the aid of others' decades of experience ] have come up with a "system that works" on their own. Not me.. never claimed to.

Terry K

 

[t_mclellan]

This might be stretching the topic just a bit but I'm going to do it anyway!
I am firm believer that there is no substitute for "Hands on experience" !
Research when done properly relies on it extensively.
I have said before that much of what has been written & is believed to be absolute fact can be proven wrong (incomplete may be a better term), Depending on the situation.
This applies to animal keepers in instances where the person doing the research has not, Or as I see it, Cannot account for the multitude of variables encountered in captive situations.
I have kept many types / species animals over the years & found (as I have also said before) that even animals of the same species & sub-species that originate from different locations might require some differences in husbandry.
Does this mean that I know more than the people that do this research? Write the papers?
Read all the papers?! I wish I could say yes, But it dose not! It only means that I am 1 of the people that has encountered a situation that was not covered in another's research.
My thoughts are simple, Think, read & ask questions! ALWAYS!
There is something you don't know, That you should know, Just around the corner!
Everyone you meet has something to teach! I have met a few people that have taught me what kind of person I don't want to be!

A great number of books & papers on animals have been written by people that I know.
Many have passed & others that shall.
Some are acquaintances & more have been great friends, Some for 30+ years. I have gained the most knowledge corresponding with my friends. Letters, E-mail or a conversation over sushi (I learn best with sushi).

I would so love to point a finger & drop the name of the person, Who in my opinion is the most flawed, PUBLISHED & famous researcher around!
That I will not do on a public forum!
Suffice it to say that their work is often quoted or referred to by many on this forum.
Myself included!

Thankfully most of their flawed work is on distribution & locale.

Side bar - Madkins007

You & I don't see eye to eye always, But I appreciate your enthusiasm, Not to mention your ability to read faster & retain more than I do! You are a great source of "Book" knowledge, Keep it up! Now all you need are a few more years of "Hands on" experience to round you out. I hope I'm still around to pick on you in 20 years!
I would like also to thank you for your help last month! I owe you 1.
I also have some things you might like to read.

Senselessly!
Tom McLellan

 

[Redfoot NERD]

This might be stretching the topic just a bit but I'm going to do it anyway!
I am firm believer that there is no substitute for "Hands on experience" !
Research when done properly relies on it extensively.
I have said before that much of what has been written & is believed to be absolute fact can be proven wrong (incomplete may be a better term), Depending on the situation.
This applies to animal keepers in instances where the person doing the research has not, Or as I see it, Cannot account for the multitude of variables encountered in captive situations.
I have kept many types / species animals over the years & found (as I have also said before) that even animals of the same species & sub-species that originate from different locations might require some differences in husbandry.
Does this mean that I know more than the people that do this research? Write the papers?
Read all the papers?! I wish I could say yes, But it dose not! It only means that I am 1 of the people that has encountered a situation that was not covered in another's research.
My thoughts are simple, Think, read & ask questions! ALWAYS!
There is something you don't know, That you should know, Just around the corner!
Everyone you meet has something to teach! I have met a few people that have taught me what kind of person I don't want to be!

A great number of books & papers on animals have been written by people that I know.
Many have passed & others that shall.
Some are acquaintances & more have been great friends, Some for 30+ years. I have gained the most knowledge corresponding with my friends. Letters, E-mail or a conversation over sushi (I learn best with sushi).

I would so love to point a finger & drop the name of the person, Who in my opinion is the most flawed, PUBLISHED & famous researcher around!
That I will not do on a public forum!
Suffice it to say that their work is often quoted or referred to by many on this forum.
Myself included!

Thankfully most of their flawed work is on distribution & locale.

Side bar - Madkins007

You & I don't see eye to eye always, But I appreciate your enthusiasm, Not to mention your ability to read faster & retain more than I do! You are a great source of "Book" knowledge, Keep it up! Now all you need are a few more years of "Hands on" experience to round you out. I hope I'm still around to pick on you in 20 years!
I would like also to thank you for your help last month! I owe you 1.
I also have some things you might like to read.

Senselessly!
Tom McLellan

Thank you Tom and Mark and Carl.. luv u guys!

A special to Mark:

You 'research'.. I take pics.. we all have to do our part. Anyone with the passion we have can get like results. I ditto what Tom said!

A special to Tom:

What you learn in most cases IMHumbleO is that someone else is learning.. maybe as a result of your years......... ( ooops is that a hatchling I just stumbled upon? )

A special to Carl (cdmay):

You never gave up on me.. how many 'egg/hatchling' pictures and questions have I bombarded you with over the past 5+ years? My "Brazilian" program has been and will be greatly enhanced by your unending generosity!

Thanks again guys...

NERD

 

[Tim/Robin]

As I (Tim) read this thread and ones very similar to it, I continually ask myself "what is that magical time period that will allow one to give advice without criticism?" At what point is one "officially" allowed to give advice based upon their own learning and experience? Are photos required to back up this knowledge and experience?

 

[RichardS]

My mother-in-law had a WC aquatic turtle that she kept for 10+ years in a 10 gallon tank with no heat lamp. She has over 10 years of turtle keeping experience. Not knowing how long a turtle lives, she considers this experience a success.

I'm happy this community exists because I think it serves as one of many resources for people who want to be educated. Generally, books written for enthusiasts (by enthusiasts) tend to be over simplified pictorials that become out dated very quickly. They are fun to collect, but, I am not expecting to slap my forehead and have a eureka moment while reading one.

I also think hobbyists tend to jump to conclusions and perceive the scientific community is lagging. The lag comes from years of field/lab research, documentation, collaboration, writing and the approval process to have a paper accepted by a credible journal, and thus accepted by the scientific community as a whole. Most of these journals aren't simply a google away and you should expect to pay money to download them (or go to a university library). More people read those journal publications than post on this board, especially internationally. I bet over the next few years the publications that will be available will create some waves.

I am not saying that one has to write or read scientific journals to be a good tortoise keeper. However, hatching and raising a statistically insignificant number of animals and forming a steadfast opinion about is no less ridiculous than a mother of three arguing down an OB GYN.

My posts are never directed at any individual board members because I don't know any of you from the man in the mood.

 

[t_mclellan]

Just a story on Tim's question about "Time" & to emphasize what I said about everyone having something worth learning.

Once upon a time .... I was at work doing what I do. I was in a predicament, Trying to accomplish my task. In my mind I was running through different scenarios that I had used in the past in similar but not exact situations. Nothing was going to give me the result I needed.
Just then an FNG, Quite literally their first day, walked up to me & said "Sir, Did you consider this ....."?
Here was a person that new nothing about my job, Nor did they have the wealth of knowledge I had clouding their view of the task at hand!
My point?!
Sometimes what is needed is someone looking at things from a different point of view.
Clear & unclouded or prejudiced by past experience or opinion!

Just a thought.
Tom McLellan

 

[Tim/Robin]

Just a story on Tim's question about "Time" & to emphasize what I said about everyone having something worth learning.

Once upon a time .... I was at work doing what I do. I was in a predicament, Trying to accomplish my task. In my mind I was running through different scenarios that I had used in the past in similar but not exact situations. Nothing was going to give me the result I needed.
Just then an FNG, Quite literally their first day, walked up to me & said "Sir, Did you consider this ....."?
Here was a person that new nothing about my job, Nor did they have the wealth of knowledge I had clouding their view of the task at hand!
My point?!
Sometimes what is needed is someone looking at things from a different point of view.
Clear & unclouded or prejudiced by past experience or opinion!

Just a thought.
Tom McLellan

Great example Tom. I too believe I can learn something from everyone. It doesn't matter the number of this or photos of that, don't discount the "newbies".

 

[Redfoot NERD]

YEP!

"A man was driving his compact car past a 'home for the mentally impaired' and had a flat tire. He jacked up the car.. removed the 4 lugs nuts and placed them into the hubcap and removed the tire. He lost his grip.. dropped the tire.. it bounced onto the hubcap.. lug nuts went everywhere [ out into the traffic, etc. ]. Just inside the fence was an individual sitting on a bench watching the whole event. He overheard the man say - 'What am I going to do?'? The individual sitting on the bench watching the whole event said.. 'Take one lug nut from each of the other 3 wheels and you'll have 3 lug nuts all the way around!'.

The man replied.. "Why are you in there"? The individual sitting on the bench watching the whole event said.. "I'm in here for being crazy.. not STUPID!!!".

Does this mean that too much info hurts or helps? I just happen to believe "less is best" and it will help more people.

NERD

 

[Candy]

Just a story on Tim's question about "Time" & to emphasize what I said about everyone having something worth learning.

Once upon a time .... I was at work doing what I do. I was in a predicament, Trying to accomplish my task. In my mind I was running through different scenarios that I had used in the past in similar but not exact situations. Nothing was going to give me the result I needed.
Just then an FNG, Quite literally their first day, walked up to me & said "Sir, Did you consider this ....."?
Here was a person that new nothing about my job, Nor did they have the wealth of knowledge I had clouding their view of the task at hand!
My point?!
Sometimes what is needed is someone looking at things from a different point of view.
Clear & unclouded or prejudiced by past experience or opinion!

Just a thought.
Tom McLellan

Great example Tom. I too believe I can learn something from everyone. It doesn't matter the number of this or photos of that, don't discount the "newbies".

EXACTLY!

 

[ChiKat]

^I agree

It makes me not want to post and offer suggestions to anyone because I know I'm not very experienced with torts- I've only had my one tortoise for ~9 months.
I usually try to give general husbandry tips anyways, but now I feel like I'm not even qualified to do that.

 

[Candy]

^I agree

It makes me not want to post and offer suggestions to anyone because I know I'm not very experienced with torts- I've only had my one tortoise for ~9 months.
I usually try to give general husbandry tips anyways, but now I feel like I'm not even qualified to do that.

Well Katie I just noticed you gave advice on another thread about carrots and I think it was very good advice given. I think they appreciated knowing that the carrots have too much sugar in them and that is very good for them to know so that their tortoise can be as healthy and cute as Nelson is.

 

[jackrat]

Just a story on Tim's question about "Time" & to emphasize what I said about everyone having something worth learning.

Once upon a time .... I was at work doing what I do. I was in a predicament, Trying to accomplish my task. In my mind I was running through different scenarios that I had used in the past in similar but not exact situations. Nothing was going to give me the result I needed.
Just then an FNG, Quite literally their first day, walked up to me & said "Sir, Did you consider this ....."?
Here was a person that new nothing about my job, Nor did they have the wealth of knowledge I had clouding their view of the task at hand!
My point?!
Sometimes what is needed is someone looking at things from a different point of view.
Clear & unclouded or prejudiced by past experience or opinion!

Just a thought.
Tom McLellan

Tom,this happens more than I care to admit in my line of work.After doing the same thing for fifteen years,you get set in your ways if you aren't careful.I can't tell you how many times I have been pulling my hair out,trying to solve a seemingly insurmountable problem,only to have the FNG walk up and point out the obvious,easy solution.In the last few years,I've made it a point to walk away from the problem and return to it in a few minutes with the mindset of someone who has never seen it before.Not surprisingly,it works a lot of the time.When it doesn't, I go and get the newest hand I have working for me,who usually can get my senile butt out of a jam.

 

[Madkins007]

^I agree

It makes me not want to post and offer suggestions to anyone because I know I'm not very experienced with torts- I've only had my one tortoise for ~9 months.
I usually try to give general husbandry tips anyways, but now I feel like I'm not even qualified to do that.

And that is the problem with posts like the OP's. This is an OPEN FORUM. If you want to chime in, you can. It is the interplay of personalities, experiences, and ideas that make places like this fun.

I kinda like knowing that if I say something and it is completely asinine someone will correct it- I learn something and the clarifications help the whole thread.

Please participate. Besides, that is what the little rating things are for!

 

[fifthdawn]

First, I'd like to point out that you'd probably won't get very objective answers because the questions being asked are subjective.

I think its safe to say, you need BOTH knowledge through experience and knowledge through reason (science or education). We can imagine someone only having one kind of knowledge to a polar extreme.

Someone with extreme experience without reason can never confirm that it was their method that lead to their sucess and not a fluke. As someone pointed out earlier, there may be someone who has extreme sucess with their method but never realizing that their location is extremely high in humidity so their caresheet never included humidity in it. From his experience, it worked, but the reason was missing which would explain why it might not work for others. An example of what you'll never come across with just experience: Bok choy is high in oxalic acid and this is something you'll never come across based on just experience. You can raise tortoises for 3000 years and you'll never figure out oxalic acid interferes with the metabolism of minerals without a chemical lab.

Someone with extreme reason without experience can not adapt to variations. Science or textbooks will never cover every possible situation. When a situation deviates from the expected norm, there's no answer then. Someone who has read every tortoise text book out there will never find out that tortoises or other reptiles have preferences. Some of my other reptiles has a preference for different insects, different leaf shape, different color fruit, different texture in pellets, etc. You will only get this through experience. An example of what you'll never come across through textbooks: You can read every textbook there is on humidity and you'll never figure out how much and often you need to spray/pour water on your enclosure without a constant trial and error while staring at your humidity gauge.

I'm pretty sure theres nobody on this forum that belongs on either extreme. There are definately members who tends to lean toward one side and those who really lean toward one side but I think a good amount of people found a happy median. This is the importance of an open forum. When you average the means and extremes, you get a good mix of both experience and science which is what we really need.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

How did -

The Q? is: Do those that give "advice" know or care how important it is to have 'hands-on' experience to ensure the best care for any particular species of tortoise or turtle? And then I asked for 'objective' responses. Doesn't that mean - Lets be honest and not think we can give advice on something we haven't experienced?

So how did the above get to "It's possible to learn from a book or scientific research"? And start some debate!?

The only research I've done is trying to figure out the 'flora, temps and humidity' of where mine are native from. And ask questions from those that have demonstrated they know how to keep theirs happy enough and long enough for them to reproduce.

I have no interest in reading a book or subjecting my hatchlings to conditions that have already proven produces abnormal tortoises.

The majority of the responses from the original Q? above are trying to prove that it's O.K. to give advice without personal experience.

Go ahead...... I'm done.

NERD

 

[Rhyno47]

At first when I was a noob and gave advise I would always say that I was new or say that "it's just a thought but..."

 

[Maggie Cummings]

How did -

The Q? is: Do those that give "advice" know or care how important it is to have 'hands-on' experience to ensure the best care for any particular species of tortoise or turtle? And then I asked for 'objective' responses. Doesn't that mean - Lets be honest and not think we can give advice on something we haven't experienced?

So how did the above get to "It's possible to learn from a book or scientific research"? And start some debate!?

The only research I've done is trying to figure out the 'flora, temps and humidity' of where mine are native from. And ask questions from those that have demonstrated they know how to keep theirs happy enough and long enough for them to reproduce.

I have no interest in reading a book or subjecting my hatchlings to conditions that have already proven produces abnormal tortoises.

The majority of the responses from the original Q? above are trying to prove that it's O.K. to give advice without personal experience.

Go ahead...... I'm done.

NERD

You have made me feel less than, but yet I just said most of my experience is from hands on treatment of bruised or battered turtles and tortoises brought to me in a trauma situation. My experience wasn't learned from a book. It was from some tort that I didn't know what species he was bleeding all over me and my kitchen table. Most of MY personal experience was gained in just that way. I am a hands on actually does rescues person. Not a read it in a book person. I admitted I don't do as many rescues now that I am not in Calif...but that's how I got my experience. My experience is in actually dealing with a bleeding tortoise not a long term got pyramided from no humidity tortoise. Is that not acceptable? I think that Bob is the animal that I have kept the longest. I didn't get involved in rescue because I like chelonia, I pretty much don't, but I am good at trauma, and I know how to deal with wounds, so my sister started bringing the badly wounded animals to me. But my experience is discounted because I don't have any long term animals. I got the wounded ones, fixed'em up and shipped'em out. That's me.

 

[chadk]

Person A, who is very experienced + knowlegable + has good results to show, says do XYZ. Person B is new and listens to person A, and ends up doing XYZ. Person C shows up with some questions. Person B passes along XYZ to help Person C. Person A is pissed.

 

[terryo]

"Do those that give "advice" know or care how important it is to have 'hands-on' experience to ensure the best care for any particular species of tortoise or turtle? "

How long do you (Terry K...Nerd) think a person has to have "hands-on" experience to be qualified to give advice? 5 years...10 years...15 years....25 years? For instance...how long have you had "hands-on" experience with Redfoots? And, do you feel that is long enough to be qualified to give advice? How long has another Redfoot breeder had "hands on" experience to be able to give advice?

 

[ChiKat]

The majority of the responses from the original Q? above are trying to prove that it's O.K. to give advice without personal experience.

Person A, who is very experienced + knowlegable + has good results to show, says do XYZ. Person B is new and listens to person A, and ends up doing XYZ. Person C shows up with some questions. Person B passes along XYZ to help Person C. Person A is pissed.

^This
For example, I learned on this forum that sulcatas (or any tortoise, really) should not be kept on a substrate of rabbit pellets for various reasons (humidity, splayed legs, etc.)
Recently someone asked a question about housing their sulcata on rabbit pellets, and I passed along the information I had learned.
Was that wrong of me to answer their question? I don't have experience with sulcatas OR rabbit pellets, and I've only been a Russian tortoise owner for ~9 months.