Introducing two tortoises? Yes or no?

[leigti]

I'm not waiting for my animals to speak to me. All I've stated is that there is no solid evidence to Suggest a tortoise gets lonely or doesn't like company. Thanks.

Actually there is. And it has been explained to you in this thread.

 

[tortoise_world123]

Just because you don't know how to read animal behavior does not mean the rest of the world doesn't either.

Your tortoises are telling you everything you need to know, you just have not yet learned how to listen.

Do you think s group of three females would be likely to work well instead of my what I believe is two females?

 

[tortoise_world123]

Actually there is. And it has been explained to you in this thread.

I'm not saying your wrong but could you clearly explain to me where evidence suggests that my tortoises are uncomfortable with one-another. And do not say it's because of the way they sleep beside one-another.

 

[Tom]

This is where our opinions differ (none of us know the true answer) some people believe in complete isolation and others believe in keeping them together.

I'm not sure you are getting this. Keeping juveniles together in groups is usually not a problem. PAIRS are what is usually a problem.

I don't "believe in complete isolation". What I know is that most tortoise species are solitary in the wild. Further, some tortoise species are down right hostile to any other tortoise in defense of territory and resources.

 

[Tom]

I'm not saying your wrong but could you clearly explain to me where evidence suggests that my tortoises are uncomfortable with one-another. And do not say it's because of the way they sleep beside one-another.

Your question is a reasonable one. The thing is that I could spend hours typing and trying to explain the concept of animals that live solitary lives in the wild, territoriality, aggression, etc., and still not get the point across. I don't have hours to do that. It would serve you best to research these things on your own. Do an internet search for territorial species, or solitary animal species, or social animal species. Read for a few hours, then come back and lets talk more specifically about tortoises.

One problem with an open internet forum like ours is that anyone can come on here and say anything. There is no way for a reader to know what a person's experience level is, why they are saying what they are saying, their age, or their intelligence level. We have kids on this forum. I don't know if I'm talking to a 55 year old tortoise zoology professor with field experience, or a 12 year old kid on their mom's iPhone. My point is that animal behavior has been my career since 1986. I don't know what your experience level with animal behavior is. I can only go by the words you have typed in. I mean you no insult, but it does not seem like you have a lot of experience in these matters. Would you care to confirm or deny my suspicions here and tell the readers what experience you are basing your advice for the OP on?

 

[Tom]

Do you think s group of three females would be likely to work well instead of my what I believe is two females?

A group of three hermanni females in a large, interesting, well planted enclosure is very likely to work. No guarantee, but likely. I can't say the same for three female horsfieldii. I would give that one a 50/50 chance of working or not.

 

[Tom]

All I've stated is that there is no solid evidence to Suggest a tortoise gets lonely or doesn't like company.

Yes there is. I'm sorry, but the animal world is full of this sort of evidence. I've not seen any evidence that a tortoise gets "lonely", but there are mountains of evidence to suggest some species don't like company.

 

[Tom]

Sorry I meant a ratio of 1:2

1.2 might work. 1.3 would be better in my opinion.

Also be aware that it can be difficult to sex immature tortoises. Most look female until the hormones kick in and the secondary sexual characteristics begin to show.

 

[johnsonnboswell]

I started with two rescue RTs, a starved male and female, Uncle Vanya and Aunt Maude. When they got healthy, he started making her miserable with his attentions. So I got two more RTs, old large females. The smaller of the two sisters did a slow fade over a couple of years and died the same week my mother died. I didn't recognized the dynamics. The difference in size between the two old sisters was extreme, and should have been a tipoff that they shouldn't be together. Adding them to the existing pair was a slow disaster.

Afterwards, Olga, the largest one began hiding all the time. She wasn't claiming the best real estate, she was avoiding the others, eating and basking less and less. Once I gave her her own habitat, she's been outgoing as a solo tortoise. The original female, Maude, much smaller than she, was as big a problem to her as the male.

Oddly, the original pair has seemed fine together since, but I don't expect it to last. Maude might be beginning to bully Vanya who is half her size. She's been growing. He hasn't.

All this is a long way of saying that some experience is hard won. Not every group works, and pairs don't. You too can have a pet cemetery. Or you can play it safe and learn from other people's mistakes. The stakes are high.

 

[SteveW]

I'm sorry but if the tortoise can't speak to you then how do assume that it's having a miserable time? How do you know that your tortoise is happy? My tortoise speedy is in my opinion the dominant one and he is usually the one that is further in the corner with my little one (Shelley) just nudging alongside. so it doesn't appear to be a territorial thing by any means.

Here's a random thought from someone who has never had Russians, much less two; every stressed turtle/tortoise I've ever been around has communicated that stress by losing weight. Maybe instead of asking internet strangers to prove stress or lack thereof, keep a detailed log of body weights. If you don't have a digital scale that reads to tenths of grams, you need one anyway. Then you can prove to yourself how well it's working.

 

[Tom]

Here's a random thought from someone who has never had Russians, much less two; every stressed turtle/tortoise I've ever been around has communicated that stress by losing weight. Maybe instead of asking internet strangers to prove stress or lack thereof, keep a detailed log of body weights. If you don't have a digital scale that reads to tenths of grams, you need one anyway. Then you can prove to yourself how well it's working.

This is not a bad idea Steve, but it is just one piece of the puzzle. Its a good piece, but still just one factor to look at.

In many cases of juveniles housed as a pair, both tortoises will continue to grow, but one will typically grow faster than the other and demonstrate better health and vigor in other ways too.

 

[Angel Carrion]

. I'm also aware that tortoises,like every reptile do not have any emotions.

I'm going to have to disagree with this thought. I do believe reptiles do have emotions just like mammals. I've seen a mother dog mourn over the death of one of her puppies, and I've seen a mother gator do the same over the death of one of her offspring. I used to have two ball pythons that loved to snuggle and were always curled up together when they weren't sun bathing or soaking or exploring. One of these ball pythons (Dragon) I had before acquiring the second (Granite). Dragon was an escape artist and would disappear in my apartment for a couple days before coming out of wherever he hid and curling up with me on the couch. I always left a heating pad set to a safe temperature out for him during his escapes, but he would always come to me instead. After I got Granite, if Dragon escaped all I had to do was find Granite in the enclosure and look on the other side of the wall to find Dragon. He never went far from her and after a couple months of her living with him, he stopped escaping completely. I think maybe he was trying to teach her how and realized she either didn't want to or couldn't, so he gave it up to be with her. They never fought, not even over food, both were healthy all their lives, and they both ended up dying at around the same time, curled up together. I believe Dragon was male and Granite was female, but the people I rescued them from weren't exactly reliable and I never cared enough to have them sexed. But I never saw any mating and Granite never laid any eggs as far as I'm aware. But judging by their behavior, they cared about each other.
There's also a tort that ended up being raised with Great Dane pups (I think) and snuggles up with them and cares about them.
So while reptiles may not care about other members of their species all the time, I do believe they have emotions just like mammals and care about others. It just depends on a specific reptile's personality.
That's not saying that two highly territorial torts will be okay together, because chances are that's not gonna work. At all. Ever. I'm just saying those two torts have emotions and feelings as well, and are most likely feeling "this is annoying. Who the heck are you?! This is my land! This town ain't big enough for two grumpy shells!" Or something like that.

 

[Angel Carrion]

Forgot to add this picture.
View attachment ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1439175198.834642.jpg

 

[Tom]

I'm going to have to disagree with this thought. I do believe reptiles do have emotions just like mammals. I've seen a mother dog mourn over the death of one of her puppies, and I've seen a mother gator do the same over the death of one of her offspring. I used to have two ball pythons that loved to snuggle and were always curled up together when they weren't sun bathing or soaking or exploring. One of these ball pythons (Dragon) I had before acquiring the second (Granite). Dragon was an escape artist and would disappear in my apartment for a couple days before coming out of wherever he hid and curling up with me on the couch. I always left a heating pad set to a safe temperature out for him during his escapes, but he would always come to me instead. After I got Granite, if Dragon escaped all I had to do was find Granite in the enclosure and look on the other side of the wall to find Dragon. He never went far from her and after a couple months of her living with him, he stopped escaping completely. I think maybe he was trying to teach her how and realized she either didn't want to or couldn't, so he gave it up to be with her. They never fought, not even over food, both were healthy all their lives, and they both ended up dying at around the same time, curled up together. I believe Dragon was male and Granite was female, but the people I rescued them from weren't exactly reliable and I never cared enough to have them sexed. But I never saw any mating and Granite never laid any eggs as far as I'm aware. But judging by their behavior, they cared about each other.
There's also a tort that ended up being raised with Great Dane pups (I think) and snuggles up with them and cares about them.
So while reptiles may not care about other members of their species all the time, I do believe they have emotions just like mammals and care about others. It just depends on a specific reptile's personality.
That's not saying that two highly territorial torts will be okay together, because chances are that's not gonna work. At all. Ever. I'm just saying those two torts have emotions and feelings as well, and are most likely feeling "this is annoying. Who the heck are you?! This is my land! This town ain't big enough for two grumpy shells!" Or something like that.

I'm sorry. I don't think your examples prove that reptiles are demonstrating emotional attachments to each other or people or dogs. I think you are drawing emotion based conclusions. Its called anthropomorphism.

They may have some basic emotions such as fear or contentment, but I would not say that reptiles "love" any other being.

Just my opinion based on decades of studying animal behavior. I could be wrong, but what I've seen tells me otherwise.

 

[tortoise_world123]

I'm going to have to disagree with this thought. I do believe reptiles do have emotions just like mammals. I've seen a mother dog mourn over the death of one of her puppies, and I've seen a mother gator do the same over the death of one of her offspring. I used to have two ball pythons that loved to snuggle and were always curled up together when they weren't sun bathing or soaking or exploring. One of these ball pythons (Dragon) I had before acquiring the second (Granite). Dragon was an escape artist and would disappear in my apartment for a couple days before coming out of wherever he hid and curling up with me on the couch. I always left a heating pad set to a safe temperature out for him during his escapes, but he would always come to me instead. After I got Granite, if Dragon escaped all I had to do was find Granite in the enclosure and look on the other side of the wall to find Dragon. He never went far from her and after a couple months of her living with him, he stopped escaping completely. I think maybe he was trying to teach her how and realized she either didn't want to or couldn't, so he gave it up to be with her. They never fought, not even over food, both were healthy all their lives, and they both ended up dying at around the same time, curled up together. I believe Dragon was male and Granite was female, but the people I rescued them from weren't exactly reliable and I never cared enough to have them sexed. But I never saw any mating and Granite never laid any eggs as far as I'm aware. But judging by their behavior, they cared about each other.
There's also a tort that ended up being raised with Great Dane pups (I think) and snuggles up with them and cares about them.
So while reptiles may not care about other members of their species all the time, I do believe they have emotions just like mammals and care about others. It just depends on a specific reptile's personality.
That's not saying that two highly territorial torts will be okay together, because chances are that's not gonna work. At all. Ever. I'm just saying those two torts have emotions and feelings as well, and are most likely feeling "this is annoying. Who the heck are you?! This is my land! This town ain't big enough for two grumpy shells!" Or something like that.

I slightly agree with Tom.
I believe that animals do not have any feelings but the examples given are of animals (like many) who have adapted to their surroundings and accept the presence of others. The example given with the tortoise and puppies was cute but I think the tortoise was just copying what they were doing when sleeping (which is still amazing) but I dot take the view that the tortoise believed he was part of the group or intended on fitting in. It probably just liked the warmth of the puppies and found it comfortable.
Remember when you first got your tortoise...it was probably a little intimidated and was trying to adapt to its new environment but with handling and feeding your tort, he began to trust you and not see you as a threat. So I believe that animals (especially from a young age) sometimes just learn to accept the presence of others. Obviously not all the time.

 

[tortoise_world123]

Your question is a reasonable one. The thing is that I could spend hours typing and trying to explain the concept of animals that live solitary lives in the wild, territoriality, aggression, etc., and still not get the point across. I don't have hours to do that. It would serve you best to research these things on your own. Do an internet search for territorial species, or solitary animal species, or social animal species. Read for a few hours, then come back and lets talk more specifically about tortoises.

One problem with an open internet forum like ours is that anyone can come on here and say anything. There is no way for a reader to know what a person's experience level is, why they are saying what they are saying, their age, or their intelligence level. We have kids on this forum. I don't know if I'm talking to a 55 year old tortoise zoology professor with field experience, or a 12 year old kid on their mom's iPhone. My point is that animal behavior has been my career since 1986. I don't know what your experience level with animal behavior is. I can only go by the words you have typed in. I mean you no insult, but it does not seem like you have a lot of experience in these matters. Would you care to confirm or deny my suspicions here and tell the readers what experience you are basing your advice for the OP on?

I'll put your suspicions at rest by saying that i am not an animal behaviourist or a zoology professor. I am a psychologist and have been for over 51years. I admit that I do not have the same experience with tortoises as you and many others do, but I am well experienced in the area involving people and animals and am taking great pleasure in reading all of these posts. All I can say is that there is a lot of very interesting people on here.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Reptiles do have emotions, of a basic but very real kind.
It is because of these emotions that bullying by another tortoise can make another tortoises life miserable and cause it to fade away and die, in some situations. It is emotions that cause the aggression too, just as a human will become aggressive is his territory is invaded or someone eats your food.
It's not exactly the same as ours, they don't feel in all the complex ways that we do, but it's just as real for them. They feel contentment, security, the pleasure of a full stomach and being warm and safe.
Love ?
No, but liking ? I think they like being stroked where it feels nice, they like their food gods that offer security and tasty treats.
Just had to post here, 'cos I keep forgetting i've read this and going back into it again.

 

[Big Charlie]

I slightly agree with Tom.
I believe that animals do not have any feelings but the examples given are of animals (like many) who have adapted to their surroundings and accept the presence of others. The example given with the tortoise and puppies was cute but I think the tortoise was just copying what they were doing when sleeping (which is still amazing) but I dot take the view that the tortoise believed he was part of the group or intended on fitting in. It probably just liked the warmth of the puppies and found it comfortable.
Remember when you first got your tortoise...it was probably a little intimidated and was trying to adapt to its new environment but with handling and feeding your tort, he began to trust you and not see you as a threat. So I believe that animals (especially from a young age) sometimes just learn to accept the presence of others. Obviously not all the time.

Did you mean to say that you don't believe animals, of any kind, have feelings? I have seen my dog exhibit pride and embarrassment, as well as joy and sadness. I'm pretty sure that most dog owners would agree.

Reptiles have much more basic systems, but it depends on how you define an emotion. Is fear an emotion? I know reptiles can exhibit fear or nervousness. I agree with Tidgy's Dad.