Kamp Kenan

[Dawn'sTooToo]

Many want a large tortoise not one that stays small. If they only have room for one, they should get what they want.

Def folks should get what they want. What I mean is Sulcatas are less forgiving (at least as youngsters) of poor or even just inadequate husbandry and their husbandry is harder to maintain for a lot of people (depending on where they live)

 

[wellington]

Def folks should get what they want. What I mean is Sulcatas are less forgiving (at least as youngsters) of poor or even just inadequate husbandry and their husbandry is harder to maintain for a lot of people (depending on where they live)

More like more expensive then harder. I have leopards. Same care not same size or attitude. Almost everyone has to prepare for those cold nights. Those of us in the cold North have those cold nights and days longer. That's where the bigger costs come in.

 

[mark1]

I was at the Daytona show and did not see him there and I don't see him listed in the vendor list. Where was his booth if you don't mind me asking? I did both rooms several times both days. Thanks.

probably your post deserves an answer ........... i've had one interaction with the kenun guy , not a fan , one interaction was all i needed ..........

for someone to join and post this accusation the same day is certainly indicative of a pissed off individual .......hopefully they come back with more info ........

as far as self diagnoses , or a vet diagnosing on sight , if that were as easy as it is , well they wouldn't need cultures, pcr test, or microscopes .......not to mention more often than not a sick animal has more than one thing going on at a time ,often folks find what they're wanting or expecting to find ............

here's a half dozen or so diagnosed diseases , which ones are austwickia ?????

 

[Yvonne G]

Are you able to post any photos so we can see what this looks like? Could not find any online, only photos of lizards with this decease. Thanks in advance.

Go to our home page. Click on "Tortoise Health" then click on "Yellow Bumps in Tortoises. " Starting at the top read through the threads. You will find some pictures there.

 

[mastershake]

so here is my question if he gets a positive result will he say that? i know a couple other people now who bought one there and sent in emails and have yet to get a response. seeing the pics it def does look par for the course. im not going to say anything to allow someone to sue us but this is so widespread among sellers im not sure how anyone can not know about this by now. SO many people have actually stopped selling babies now who used to and some who do have steeply raised prices, i have recently seen some charging 200+ for babies.

yes this is now seen in red foot (multiple), a yellow foot, greeks, leopards, a hingeback, aldabra, sulcata among others species, even a bearded dragon now that im guessing was infected because the person had a sulcata baby and they cross contaminated. they were sent to a lab for necropsy and they shared the result which was positive.

this is now not going away and may never be going away. and it sucks. i dont know how many adults kenan still has BUT from people i know who were at the show they said he had a LOT of babies like one person bought 10-15 (i was told) and someone i trust very much walked by and said he had a lot of them. i dont know if his smaller group (i thought he did not have that many sulcata anymore from one video he did but i may be wrong) would produce that many in such a short time so im not sure if they were in fact all his or he maybe brought some in to sell. i cant say for sure. also at a show like daytona this could have devastating effects. many people do not practice proper hand sanitation after handling animals and may very well now have spread this to other species if this comes back that this is what it is (or if kenan will say it is thats a big question i have) and could cause huge damage. i know personally very well some of the sellers who were there one who i am a long time friend of and i told them about it because otherwise they would have no idea. they are highly protective of anyone touching the animals they bring so i think they should be okay but still.

the other question is if these were in fact his babies then that means he has either an infected adult or somehow it found its way onto the property there. and what does that mean going forward. possibly an animal he brought in from someone else? his videos dont show how he does qt or if he even does. ive seen a few where he opens the box and lets them go right out into the water or into a pen. so again im not going to speculate there.

someone else has contacted me though about a baby they got from him that has the bumps. is loosing toenails, and is now barely eating. they told me they would send them in if they pass but i can only go off that whether they actually do or not. i asked them to send them to us here directly or to send them to the lab for necropsy and i would pay for the necropsy to be done so i am hoping they follow through.

for those that breed and sell this may be here to stay from now on and be something permanent just like coccidia or crypto. it may soon be something we all have to live with and hope we never get just like crypto. the best thing anyone can do at this point is practice extreme quarantine and treat every new animals as infected unless proven otherwise.

i have been in contact with at least 7 people in the last two weeks who have POSITIVE diagnosis and have hundreds of other animals and have possible chance of cross contamination and are devastated and rightly so. one person may have already spread this to their other species since it was no sulcata they have the issue with and the animals sent to the lab were in fact positive upon necropsy.

 

[mastershake]

probably your post deserves an answer ........... i've had one interaction with the kenun guy , not a fan , one interaction was all i needed ..........

for someone to join and post this accusation the same day is certainly indicative of a pissed off individual .......hopefully they come back with more info ........

as far as self diagnoses , or a vet diagnosing on sight , if that were as easy as it is , well they wouldn't need cultures, pcr test, or microscopes .......not to mention more often than not a sick animal has more than one thing going on at a time ,often folks find what they're wanting or expecting to find ............

here's a half dozen or so diagnosed diseases , which ones are austwickia ?????

this is def true. i can only look for the tell tale signs. i let people know this does LOOK like aw and the only way to be 100% sure is a deep tissue biopsy or necropsy upon death. i have however seen prob 200+ cases in hand up close (with gloves and proper protection procedures) and every one of those animals who were actually sent into the lab (not all of them of course were) came back positive for aw. there are multiple labs now who have positive results across the usa. i agree with you that you cant 100% diagnose an animal from pics. but some of them have every symptom of this and its fairly common for them to be positive. i think so far only one time has an animal been sent in been negative for aw and it was something else but they only showed one of the typical symptoms. every sulcata who had the bumps/plaques toenails missing, swelling, facial issues etc all in one animal have been positive (again of those who were sent for testing).

as well as others who had something along side aw besides when they were tested.

 

[dd33]

I was at the Daytona show and did not see him there and I don't see him listed in the vendor list. Where was his booth if you don't mind me asking? I did both rooms several times both days. Thanks.

He was there but didn't have his own booth. His tortoises were on a table in someone else's booth,

 

[mastershake]

i wasnt there so that i dont know. i think a lot of people assumed it was his table

 

[pacific chelonians]

Wow I’m not sure how I didn’t see this post earlier just thought that I would say how sorry I am for the bad circumstances that these babies are in what I find even more concerning is that I have seen him keep his sulcatas with his other species of tortoises I have dealt with Kenan a few times and A few friends have shared their experiences with me but just have come to terms with is that he prefers to do things on his own timeline and without concerns for others this being said I don’t think he’s a bad guy just not The most reliable or polite

 

[mark1]

this is def true. i can only look for the tell tale signs. i let people know this does LOOK like aw and the only way to be 100% sure is a deep tissue biopsy or necropsy upon death. i have however seen prob 200+ cases in hand up close (with gloves and proper protection i agree with you that you cant 100%

will the university of florida be publishing anything on these 200+
cases ? what exactly are they doing besides testing for it ......lots of published articles about austwickia , none even close to 200 cases ........ the university of oklahoma worked with a sulcata breeder who actually had an outbreak of austwickia in 2015 , i believe they worked with them until 2019 , identifying it and instructing them on how to eradicate it ....... they had nowhere close to 200 documented positive cases , not that they couldn't have , the breeder euthanized a large amount of untested baby sulcata's ..........

any bacterial or fungal infection in the nail bed will cause lost toenails ...i've seen rotted off toenails more than once , and treated them without issue ... same with the beak , any bacterial or fungal infection in the beak germinal layer or bone will cause a beak to , in extreme cases , fall off .......

dermatophilus has been documented, and written about, in bearded dragons since 1972 ...........

maybe it's just me , seems like what's being said here should be 100% verified ????i honestly don't like the kenum guy, i seriously think he's an +++++++, and i don't go to reptile shows......i do know as elissazoo said , this guy was not on the vendor list ...... has the original poster come back to answer their post ? or can one of the folks you know bought tortoises off him there answer that post? i'm pretty skeptical about info on the internet ......

here's two actual documented pictures of tortoises with austwickia

 

[mastershake]

i cant say for sure what they will be doing. i do know that a leopard was JUST sent in who i am told they said was positive. as well as someone who was supposed to send in a chaco. we had many sent here to examine and take pics of (including ones we had brought in that were kept in full qt) as well as local people from around fl bring them to me or i met with to take a look at. most did not want to pay for necropsy. i should have worded that differently i have seen nearly that many total cases overall though. the ones here in hand were handled with gloves and extremely carefully. many of them were in hand. i am in the middle of daily cancer treatment and also trying to respond here as well so i did mis word that but i can not go and edit the post when i re read that i tried but the button was gone. but i have many pics of positive cases, dozens. i have posted many pics of babies who were actually tested positive here. we have had around 35 i believe shipped in here. with many people sent out to labs for necropsy at different labs themselves who got back to me to let me know results. as well as ones who have traveled to me here to have me look at and take pics of. as well as people who we traveled to locally within say 5-7 hours or so to check out. i have a red foot coming here, and another leopard this week for inspection once i see them ill decide to send them out or not.

one place in alb. nm alone had to euthanize 86 babies. they sent some for testing here and we sent some of those out to uf. they were positive. and every one ended up with the bumps on them shortly after within around 1-2 months along with toenails falling out some with major facial issues. they decided it best to not sell them. the ones that started that i was told came from underground reptiles in fl who we believe are buying them and not breeding them. i can not confirm this for sure that was just the info i was given. 4 of those were sent here one of those was sent to uf for necropsy and also verified positive. so yes there have def been that many cases overall.

in almost every case where the baby has died and tested positive they were missing toenails. some of those did not test for anything other then aw.

after doing enough necropsies uf said they know what it is and what the symptoms are and now are going to continue looking into further testing. the sensitivity has already been done before and they have also done it there. so there is not much else to do sadly unless the sources can be eliminated but i personally feel that its to late for that now.

i can assure you there are well over that many cases now between here the forum and facebook, and people calling us to ask questions, as well as shops and breeders bringing in babies to add to their groups wondering what these bumps are from pretty much every state now. one person just also talked to tom about it directly. another person just called last week with 12 babies, another with 3, another with 6, i think the one who talked to tom has 7 babies (i dont know how many of those have full symptoms yet though). this was just in the past 2 weeks. there are LOTS of them out there now.

 

[Yvonne G]

i cant say for sure what they will be doing. i do know that a leopard was JUST sent in who i am told they said was positive. as well as someone who was supposed to send in a chaco. we had many sent here to examine and take pics of (including ones we had brought in that were kept in full qt) as well as local people from around fl bring them to me or i met with to take a look at. most did not want to pay for necropsy. i should have worded that differently i have seen nearly that many total cases overall though. the ones here in hand were handled with gloves and extremely carefully. many of them were in hand. i am in the middle of daily cancer treatment and also trying to respond here as well so i did mis word that but i can not go and edit the post when i re read that i tried but the button was gone. but i have many pics of positive cases, dozens. i have posted many pics of babies who were actually tested positive here. we have had around 35 i believe shipped in here. with many people sent out to labs for necropsy at different labs themselves who got back to me to let me know results. as well as ones who have traveled to me here to have me look at and take pics of. as well as people who we traveled to locally within say 5-7 hours or so to check out. i have a red foot coming here, and another leopard this week for inspection once i see them ill decide to send them out or not.

one place in alb. nm alone had to euthanize 86 babies. they sent some for testing here and we sent some of those out to uf. they were positive. and every one ended up with the bumps on them shortly after within around 1-2 months along with toenails falling out some with major facial issues. they decided it best to not sell them. the ones that started that i was told came from underground reptiles in fl who we believe are buying them and not breeding them. i can not confirm this for sure that was just the info i was given. 4 of those were sent here one of those was sent to uf for necropsy and also verified positive. so yes there have def been that many cases overall.

in almost every case where the baby has died and tested positive they were missing toenails. some of those did not test for anything other then aw.

after doing enough necropsies uf said they know what it is and what the symptoms are and now are going to continue looking into further testing. the sensitivity has already been done before and they have also done it there. so there is not much else to do sadly unless the sources can be eliminated but i personally feel that its to late for that now.

i can assure you there are well over that many cases now between here the forum and facebook, and people calling us to ask questions, as well as shops and breeders bringing in babies to add to their groups wondering what these bumps are from pretty much every state now. one person just also talked to tom about it directly. anotther person just called last week with 12 babies, another with 3, another with 6, i think the one who talked to tom has 7 babies (i dont know how many of those have full symptoms yet though). this was just in the past 2 weeks. there are LOTS of them out there now.

So sorry to hear about the cancer. I truly hope it turns out well for you.

About those with whole clutches with the disease. . . does this mean one or more of the parents were infected? or how did the whole clutch get it?

It looks like I got out of the rescue business just in time.

 

[mastershake]

hard to really say. they know it can be spread through fecal matter along with water, soil etc. so if the female defecates on the eggs or if the area becomes contaminated it can be spread that way.

they are doing radiation daily right now along with surgery i hope this week or next. we are def hoping for it to all go smoothly. they think for now they can get the spots treated and hopefully we dont see recurrence any time soon.

 

[dd33]

Sorry to hear about your health issues.

What is the largest tortoise you have seen die that either tested positive or exhibited symptoms? Do you think it is possible to have a bunch of adult tortoises and not know this is present until the hatchlings start dropping?

 

[mastershake]

here we have only seen this in young animals personally. part of the one report from 2019 they suggest it could come from the female when the eggs are laid so while i can not say for sure since we have never seen an adult with the symptoms if you go off that report then yes an adult can carry it.

 

[Cathie G]

hard to really say. they know it can be spread through fecal matter along with water, soil etc. so if the female defecates on the eggs or if the area becomes contaminated it can be spread that way.

they are doing radiation daily right now along with surgery i hope this week or next. we are def hoping for it to all go smoothly. they think for now they can get the spots treated and hopefully we dont see recurrence any time soon.

Get better! Soon!. Your research matters.🐢 you gotta keep on trucking 🤗

 

[wellington]

will the university of florida be publishing anything on these 200+
cases ? what exactly are they doing besides testing for it ......lots of published articles about austwickia , none even close to 200 cases ........ the university of oklahoma worked with a sulcata breeder who actually had an outbreak of austwickia in 2015 , i believe they worked with them until 2019 , identifying it and instructing them on how to eradicate it ....... they had nowhere close to 200 documented positive cases , not that they couldn't have , the breeder euthanized a large amount of untested baby sulcata's ..........

any bacterial or fungal infection in the nail bed will cause lost toenails ...i've seen rotted off toenails more than once , and treated them without issue ... same with the beak , any bacterial or fungal infection in the beak germinal layer or bone will cause a beak to , in extreme cases , fall off .......

dermatophilus has been documented, and written about, in bearded dragons since 1972 ...........

maybe it's just me , seems like what's being said here should be 100% verified ????i honestly don't like the kenum guy, i seriously think he's an +++++++, and i don't go to reptile shows......i do know as elissazoo said , this guy was not on the vendor list ...... has the original poster come back to answer their post ? or can one of the folks you know bought tortoises off him there answer that post? i'm pretty skeptical about info on the internet ......

here's two actual documented pictures of tortoises with austwickia

Why are you doubting this so much? We have several cases already on here that fit the AW desease. Mastershake has been working with this for some time now and has proof of many cases. He or this forum can't make everyone that is suspected of having it in their tort send their tort in to be tested. I think with the proof mastershake has told us about is enough proof that this is spreading like wild fire and people should suspect it if their torts have any symptoms or be very cautious of buying anything from anyone.

 

[wellington]

Wish you mastershake a speedy and full recovery.

 

[tortoise16 2003]

Have any Sulcata’s survived AW? Has there been a case of a full recovery I had some Sulcata’s that I purchased from AZ to resell in my area come with AW as soon as I found out I had all the babies euthanized but before I could it had spread to some of my other tortoises I had everything separated didn’t mix my Sulcata’s but somehow it mangled to spread to some of my Greeks which I was able to sell to a buddy of mine who wanted them with AW to examine the bacteria. I didn’t get any test done to be 100% sure it was AW but it seemed to be it. Surprising my friend said the Greeks are still alive and doing relatively good so it might not have be AW but im 95% sure it was. This is definitely a really scary disease and it seems there is no stopping it. It’s far to late to do anything to control it’s spread. A Total shutdown of Sulcata breeding for a few years will slow down its spread but that’s not possible.

 

[tortoise16 2003]

Also is it more contagious in indoor setting compared to outdoor ones? I’ve heard there have been studies showing UV rays can have harmful affects on bacteria and virus so would animals kept outside be less likely to spread it or general at a slower rate. Reason I’m asking is because it seems its been mainly seen in baby tortoises from what I'm hearing which are usually kept indoors.