Look at what I found at the vets office!

[ChloeCrull]

Good spotting. It's such a shame that these coil bulbs are still around. I hope they cease to exist in our local markets and around the world very soon.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Judging by the fact that many new members come here each week with blinded tortoises, these issues have not been "fixed"
Far from being safe, I haven't heard anyone claim to use them on a single tortoise without horrible results. I would never risk it.
I mentioned to the tech that the compact coil lights had caused many issues for members on the TORTOISE FORUM and she had never heard of such a thing. (She has now). While I didn't mention it to the vet. (I didn't see her this time) I will on my next visit.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

from what i see those problems were few years ago and the companies have since fixed the issue. i suppose cfl from reputable companies are safe to use. but why many comments here are still discouraging the use of cfl?

Is it worth the risk to you?
It isn't to me.
The bottom line is still :They could cause serious damage.
"Could" is enough for me.
And the proof is that they DO.
There are better options available.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I don't know if these harm other animals or not. I mean I don't know why they wouldn't. I don't know how tortoise physiology is different to that of say a chameleon. But maybe other reptile keepers use this type of bulb without an issue? Maybe that's why they are still sold?
I'll bet you a buck that before this morning ends, there will be at least one new member joining with an eye issue on their tortoise caused by this type of bulb.
(And no, you can't have a dollar.)

 

[jaizei]

Judging by the fact that many new members come here each week with blinded tortoises, these issues have not been "fixed"
Far from being safe, I haven't heard anyone claim to use them on a single tortoise without horrible results. I would never risk it.
I mentioned to the tech that the compact coil lights had caused many issues for members on the TORTOISE FORUM and she had never heard of such a thing. (She has now). While I didn't mention it to the vet. (I didn't see her this time) I will on my next visit.

I don't know if these harm other animals or not. I mean I don't know why they wouldn't. I don't know how tortoise physiology is different to that of say a chameleon. But maybe other reptile keepers use this type of bulb without an issue? Maybe that's why they are still sold?
I'll bet you a buck that before this morning ends, there will be at least one new member joining with an eye issue on their tortoise caused by this type of bulb.
(And no, you can't have a dollar.)

There's a lot of confirmation bias. Last time I really kept track, I noted more people experienced the same symptoms while using MVB. If you realized the number of times that someone was using a CFL only to start experiencing problems after switching to an MVB. There's a reason why I've suggested for years that anyone using any type of UV lamp check them with a meter. Every style of lamp has caused problems at some time. That's why if someone is experiencing problems, "have you recently changed the lamp/lighting" is the question you should ask instead of "are you using coil bulbs".

 

[jaizei]

Is it worth the risk to you?
It isn't to me.
The bottom line is still :They could cause serious damage.
"Could" is enough for me.
And the proof is that they DO.
There are better options available.

Does the same standard apply across the board? Is "Could", the possibility of risk is all it takes to dissuade you from something? I've found it interesting how arbitrary the acceptability of risk is across various subjects.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I hadn't seen any problems caused by MVB.(didn't but wasn't looking)
But the issues with CFL are rampant.
Is the problem simply too much output? Or wrong type of output?

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Does the same standard apply across the board? Is "Could", the possibility of risk is all it takes to dissuade you from something? I've found it interesting how arbitrary the acceptability of risk is across various subjects.

If every time the word COULD meant "most of the time." Then yes.

 

[THBfriend]

Judging by the fact that many new members come here each week with blinded tortoises, these issues have not been "fixed"

Go on, show us those many new members that use brand name CFLs in the proper way (appropriate distance, no unauthorized reflectors) and still have blinded tortoises.

Far from being safe, I haven't heard anyone claim to use them on a single tortoise without horrible results. I would never risk it.

Then you probably should get out of this forum more. There are lots of people out there who use these lamps without horrible results. You'd expect product reviews of these lamps to be full of horror stories for starters, which they aren't.

The bottom line is still :They could cause serious damage.
"Could" is enough for me.
And the proof is that they DO.
There are better options available.

Again: all types of UV lamps can, could, and have caused damage!
If you rely on them, get a UV Index meter (SolarMeter 6.5).
There is exactly one better option: natural sunlight.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

My only source of information has been this forum.
I have never used a CFL. My tortoises are housed outdoors.
I appreciate this point, counter point, but after reading these posts I'm not sure how anyone could reach another conclusion. Are we (me) now not to warn anyone about using these lamps?
This subject has been of no benefit for me. I don't use them and I'm not selling lights.
I'm trying to give other members some helpful advice.
Are we now to say that coiled lamps are fine?
I'm only talking coiled lamps. The point of this thread.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I don't want this to sound like another argument that does no good for anyone.
I'd like to know what to say to help the next person....and the next.
I actually need more information.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Me, too.
Is it correct that old stock of the dangerous bulbs are still available in stores or on the net?
Is the UVB:UVA output of these bulbs adequate, bearing in mind that due to the design of a coiled bulb, the UV light is flying about in all directions and is not focussed in one direction?
So are reflectors necessary with a coiled bulb?
If a member asks, are we to say 'Coiled bulbs are fine?', 'They maybe dangerous', 'They may not produce adequate UVB' , 'no one knows', or just ignore the post?
If a baby tort has eye problems and the lamp is positioned correctly what else could the problem be?
Substrate, perhaps? An infection?
We are all interested in learning and like to help people with problems, but would like to know up to date, correct and safe information.
I think this matter is very important.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Well said. Thanks Adam.
My only agenda is to help.

 

[Gillian M]

Well said. Thanks Adam.
My only agenda is to help.

Very nice of you.

 

[Lexiii]

I recently came across a guy on facebook that asked why his tort wouldn't open his eyes and wasn't eating. Sure enough he was using a coil bulb, so it's not just this forum. I will never risk it myself.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

I recently came across a guy on facebook that asked why his tort wouldn't open his eyes and wasn't eating. Sure enough he was using a coil bulb, so it's not just this forum. I will never risk it myself.

But did the tort recover after the bulb change?

 

[Tom]

There are people that refuse to see the obvious and/or just want to argue and/or oppose certain other people any chance they get.

This problem with the coil bulb is NOT fixed. We see it continually here on this forum and I see it continually in real life.

These bulbs can and do damage the eyes of other reptiles, including lizards.

Not all of these bulbs do damage. Only some of them. This is why so many people use them and then claim there is no issue. There was no issue with the bulb they were using. This does not mean there is no issue with a bulb someone else was using.

THB, I do not feel the need to search old posts to find you 100 examples of eye problems with coil bulbs. They are there. If you want to be convinced YOU do the searching.

There is no comparison between the damage I've seen with cfl bulbs vs. other UV bulbs in the market. Can I search the internet and find an example to support any conclusion I want? Sure I could. I, however, choose to not ignore the obvious.

 

[Lexiii]

But did the tort recover after the bulb change?

I don't know, it was just a couple days ago.

 

[THBfriend]

I appreciate this point, counter point, but after reading these posts I'm not sure how anyone could reach another conclusion. Are we (me) now not to warn anyone about using these lamps?

Your intentions are noble, and warning people about the dangers of UV CFLs is well and good. But:

1. There must be an explanation why. If you just tell people "UV CFLs bad" and they spread that without knowing the reasons and caveats, you get into monkey ladder experiment territory.
2. It must be pointed out that all types of UV lamps are potentially dangerous or useless, not just CFLs. Otherwise you give people a false sense of security ("UV CFLs bad, tube FLs and MVBs good" - no, it's not that simple, unfortunately).

UV lighting for reptiles is complicated, no matter what lamp type you use. The distance between lamp and animal makes a huge difference, also whether you use a CFL horizontally or vertically, with or without dome/reflector, type of reflector (shiny vs. matt). UV CFLs and tube FLs also need to be coordinated with normal basking lamps, because UV without proper temperatures is ineffective for vitamin D3 production. Different tortoise species also require different UV levels, red-footed tortoises not as much as Hermann's or sulcatas, for example.

Here's a nice, short video of Frances Baines (whom I quoted previously) discussing three lamps, one CFL and two tubes. Note that while the Arcadia D3 tube (a good brand) has a nicer UV gradient than the CFL simply because of its length, you still need to get unacceptably close to it (fewer than 6 inches) to get an UV index of 3, which is still rather mild. And that was with a reflector. Using a tube FL without a reflector can easily half the intensity/distance.

To get a better idea of UV index values, read this, and search the net for "<your town> UV index" and "<natural habitat of your tortoise species> UV index". And here's a post by Mrs. Baines with some more info. Tortoises will of course not be out in direct sunlight all the time, but even in shade, the UV index will probably be higher in nature than what a simple UV tube FL produces at a reasonable distance.

So, if you tell people to ditch UV CFLs and to get tubes instead, it's quite possible that their tortoises end up getting too little UV. Hence the need for education and meters.

 

[THBfriend]

1. Is it correct that old stock of the dangerous bulbs are still available in stores or on the net?
2. Is the UVB:UVA output of these bulbs adequate, bearing in mind that due to the design of a coiled bulb, the UV light is flying about in all directions and is not focussed in one direction?
3. So are reflectors necessary with a coiled bulb?
4. If a member asks, are we to say 'Coiled bulbs are fine?', 'They maybe dangerous', 'They may not produce adequate UVB' , 'no one knows', or just ignore the post?

1. Perhaps, perhaps not. In some cases, you can tell, see the very bottom of this page. As I quoted on the previous page, bad UV lamps are still being made, and that includes T5 and T8 tube lamps. They are low-price generic no-name products. Lamps by the big brands are "safe". Ergo: don't buy cheap no-name UV lamps.
2. Huh? Light from a fluorescent tube is flying about in all directions, too. Again, the output of the brand lamps is adequate, but as mentioned before, the actual intensity arriving at the animal depends on several factors, most importantly distance.
3. Reflectors are more or less necessary for all lamps. UV tubes can be much too weak without them, see the video I linked above. However, using the wrong type of reflector for CFLs (shiny metallic surfaces) might focus the beam too much, read this. So, use only reflectors recommended by the manufacturer, if you trust them, or better, get a meter and do your own measurements.
4. Pretty much the same answer you should give when someone asks "are UV tube lamps fine":
   - "Depends".
   - "Don't keep tortoises indoors, build them an outdoor enclosure."
   - "Get a UV index meter"