- Joined
- Nov 7, 2012
- Messages
- 5,172
- Location (City and/or State)
- South of Southern California, but not Mexico
Protein is a collective term for Amino Acids. Your body can not exist without amino acids, but in FACT they do not have to come from meat. There are vegetarian body builders. Peoples' obsession on the frequency of adding protein to the diet of forest species (often Redfoots) and suggesting some schedule, once a week, once a month are completely missing a point on what protein is. Every food item has protein, all of them (all food items, not all amino acids). So, what's the deal with feeding protein??
Those amino acids comes in a wide range (that collective noun thing). Many must be consumed directly, your body can not make them from other things in the diet, those are called essential amino acids, if you don't eat them, you will be malnourished leading to death over some long term. Other amino acids that your body needs can be made by your body. Your body can directly use 'non-essential' amino acids if consumed, but if not your body will make them.
Essential amino acids are not specifically worked out for tortoises in general, or for any one chelonian species. Even for humans, the essentiall-ality changes with age. Infants are not able to make some, that later in life they can make. What is essential for humans is not the same as what is essential to rats.
Meat is not bad, but it comes with costs that plant based protein does not come with, in this case I am talking about dead meat. As soon as an animal dies/is killed bacteria that are maintained with the animals immune system can invade all cells and leave toxic waste behind as they proliferate and grow. This takes just seconds after death, when blood pressure drops to zero. There are also lots of other nutrients in animal flesh that are vital to forest species of tortoises, ALL of which can be found in plant based foods. To make this post seem more weird, all grassland species will also eat dead animals they come across. HOWEVER...
All amino acids that animals use can also be found in plants. Mulberry has them all, so does Moringa etc. So, if you have a dedicated 'protein' feed, at least realize you are feeding protein at every meal. and depending on what plant items you use, all of the amino acids are there.
A couple further points of consideration. Intestines, longer intestines do better with less meat, it can start to rot in longer intestines, short intestines do a grab and defecate thing, longer intestines do a hold/ferment then defecate thing. Live foods that are meat, worms, insects, baby mice etc. are more than just animal based amino acids, they are behavioral enrichment. It gives the tortoise a hobby, to hunt - subdue, then eat. Snails, worms, isopods (pillbugs) etc all enrich the life of the housed tortoise.
I am currently collecting literature on some metrics associated with tortoises. Mostly body shape and intestine length. I'm not positioned to receive recently deceased tortoises and do the 'wet' work. However Heather Smith Ph.D. is at Midwestern University in Glendale AZ is open to arranging such opportunities. Her email is [email protected] , it would be a good idea to reach out and see what her current receiving situation is. Dr. Smith spoke at the 2019 TTPG meeting and openly expressed interest to receive deceased tortoises to further her physiology interest in chelonians.
Those amino acids comes in a wide range (that collective noun thing). Many must be consumed directly, your body can not make them from other things in the diet, those are called essential amino acids, if you don't eat them, you will be malnourished leading to death over some long term. Other amino acids that your body needs can be made by your body. Your body can directly use 'non-essential' amino acids if consumed, but if not your body will make them.
Essential amino acids are not specifically worked out for tortoises in general, or for any one chelonian species. Even for humans, the essentiall-ality changes with age. Infants are not able to make some, that later in life they can make. What is essential for humans is not the same as what is essential to rats.
Meat is not bad, but it comes with costs that plant based protein does not come with, in this case I am talking about dead meat. As soon as an animal dies/is killed bacteria that are maintained with the animals immune system can invade all cells and leave toxic waste behind as they proliferate and grow. This takes just seconds after death, when blood pressure drops to zero. There are also lots of other nutrients in animal flesh that are vital to forest species of tortoises, ALL of which can be found in plant based foods. To make this post seem more weird, all grassland species will also eat dead animals they come across. HOWEVER...
All amino acids that animals use can also be found in plants. Mulberry has them all, so does Moringa etc. So, if you have a dedicated 'protein' feed, at least realize you are feeding protein at every meal. and depending on what plant items you use, all of the amino acids are there.
A couple further points of consideration. Intestines, longer intestines do better with less meat, it can start to rot in longer intestines, short intestines do a grab and defecate thing, longer intestines do a hold/ferment then defecate thing. Live foods that are meat, worms, insects, baby mice etc. are more than just animal based amino acids, they are behavioral enrichment. It gives the tortoise a hobby, to hunt - subdue, then eat. Snails, worms, isopods (pillbugs) etc all enrich the life of the housed tortoise.
I am currently collecting literature on some metrics associated with tortoises. Mostly body shape and intestine length. I'm not positioned to receive recently deceased tortoises and do the 'wet' work. However Heather Smith Ph.D. is at Midwestern University in Glendale AZ is open to arranging such opportunities. Her email is [email protected] , it would be a good idea to reach out and see what her current receiving situation is. Dr. Smith spoke at the 2019 TTPG meeting and openly expressed interest to receive deceased tortoises to further her physiology interest in chelonians.