Protein does not mean meat!

Kapidolo Farms

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Protein is a collective term for Amino Acids. Your body can not exist without amino acids, but in FACT they do not have to come from meat. There are vegetarian body builders. Peoples' obsession on the frequency of adding protein to the diet of forest species (often Redfoots) and suggesting some schedule, once a week, once a month are completely missing a point on what protein is. Every food item has protein, all of them (all food items, not all amino acids). So, what's the deal with feeding protein??

Those amino acids comes in a wide range (that collective noun thing). Many must be consumed directly, your body can not make them from other things in the diet, those are called essential amino acids, if you don't eat them, you will be malnourished leading to death over some long term. Other amino acids that your body needs can be made by your body. Your body can directly use 'non-essential' amino acids if consumed, but if not your body will make them.

Essential amino acids are not specifically worked out for tortoises in general, or for any one chelonian species. Even for humans, the essentiall-ality changes with age. Infants are not able to make some, that later in life they can make. What is essential for humans is not the same as what is essential to rats.

Meat is not bad, but it comes with costs that plant based protein does not come with, in this case I am talking about dead meat. As soon as an animal dies/is killed bacteria that are maintained with the animals immune system can invade all cells and leave toxic waste behind as they proliferate and grow. This takes just seconds after death, when blood pressure drops to zero. There are also lots of other nutrients in animal flesh that are vital to forest species of tortoises, ALL of which can be found in plant based foods. To make this post seem more weird, all grassland species will also eat dead animals they come across. HOWEVER...

All amino acids that animals use can also be found in plants. Mulberry has them all, so does Moringa etc. So, if you have a dedicated 'protein' feed, at least realize you are feeding protein at every meal. and depending on what plant items you use, all of the amino acids are there.

A couple further points of consideration. Intestines, longer intestines do better with less meat, it can start to rot in longer intestines, short intestines do a grab and defecate thing, longer intestines do a hold/ferment then defecate thing. Live foods that are meat, worms, insects, baby mice etc. are more than just animal based amino acids, they are behavioral enrichment. It gives the tortoise a hobby, to hunt - subdue, then eat. Snails, worms, isopods (pillbugs) etc all enrich the life of the housed tortoise.

I am currently collecting literature on some metrics associated with tortoises. Mostly body shape and intestine length. I'm not positioned to receive recently deceased tortoises and do the 'wet' work. However Heather Smith Ph.D. is at Midwestern University in Glendale AZ is open to arranging such opportunities. Her email is [email protected] , it would be a good idea to reach out and see what her current receiving situation is. Dr. Smith spoke at the 2019 TTPG meeting and openly expressed interest to receive deceased tortoises to further her physiology interest in chelonians.
 

Blackdog1714

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I know its true, but it sooo wrong! Steak is protein! You sound like my Doctor! ?
 

Maro2Bear

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Good posting Will. A few years ago I used to ONLY ”juice” for my meals. Celery, chard, apples, greens, spinach, etc. ppl would also ask but but but where are you getting your protein from. Then i would provide them a similar speel about the other proteins out there!

Some info on hemp seeds...

Hemp seeds are one of the richest plant proteins in the world. Hemp protein is very unique plant source of protein because it is a complete protein containing nine essential amino acids. Some of the amino acids are histidine and arginine, which are required for growth and development, as well as repair of lean body tissue. These seeds are an excellent source of healthy fats and proteins. Some other benefits of hemp seeds are they boost energy, easy to digest, are good for the heart as they improve cholesterol levels and lower blood pressure levels. In addition, they control food cravings and improve the overall immunity.
 

jaizei

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This is something that I've been thinking about more lately as well, looking for physiological differences between "grassland" and "forest" species that support the differences in "allowable" diet.
 

Minority2

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This is something that I've been thinking about more lately as well, looking for physiological differences between "grassland" and "forest" species that support the differences in "allowable" diet.

Out in the wild, any species, if hungry enough, will eventually turn to eating animal/insect flesh when offered/found. Domesticated cats and dogs have been known to do exactly this to their dead owners. Tortoise will just about eat anything they believe to be edible even if it may not be good for their health.

I wouldn't call situations like this that do happen in nature "allowable" in a artificially made, captive environment, build to specifically house them as pets. Because try as we may, tortoise owners will never be able to successfully with a 100% accuracy be able to create the same exact natural environment/setting for their tortoises down. It's just not possible for the average owner to build their redfoot tortoises a tropical rain forest and fill it with the right types of animals, plant life, along with the right combination that comes with natural ecology.
 

ZEROPILOT

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Out in the wild, any species, if hungry enough, will eventually turn to eating animal/insect flesh when offered/found. Domesticated cats and dogs have been known to do exactly this to their dead owners. Tortoise will just about eat anything they believe to be edible even if it may not be good for their health.

I wouldn't call situations like this that do happen in nature "allowable" in a artificially made, captive environment, build to specifically house them as pets. Because try as we may, tortoise owners will never be able to successfully with a 100% accuracy be able to create the same exact natural environment/setting for their tortoises down. It's just not possible for the average owner to build their redfoot tortoises a tropical rain forest and fill it with the right types of animals, plant life, along with the right combination that comes with natural ecology.
My group has now made a meal out of 3 rats and 4 medium sized birds.
(That I know of. From evidence that I've found)
 

Minority2

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My group has now made a meal out of 3 rats and 4 medium sized birds.
(That I know of. From evidence that I've found)

It's probably eaten that much on their own because they were lucky enough to be in a safe, artificial environment that allowed them enough protection in order to get the most out of the dead carcasses they happen to come upon. In nature, tortoises are often down at the bottom of the list when it comes to predator and prey, even larger species of birds can snatch up a non-giant species tortoise if not paying attention to their surroundings. This may possibly mean that they're not going get first dibs when it comes to dead carcasses. Every animal bigger and faster than tortoises are going to eat their fill before them. So the amount of animal protein they may eat in nature might not be as high as what an uninformed tortoise owner may want/like to feed their non-redfoot tortoise; ignoring other members of this forum's pleas, thinking that a little here and there is not going to hurt their baby.

That's exactly what's going to happen unless members continually answer these questions with super long winded and detailed explanations which the original poster may not even bother to read just like the many links to care sheets which are often ignored, or we can simply just tell them no. Even if this non-redfoot tortoise is capable of eating a little animal protein it should stick with denser, more fibrous options because that answer is a lot easier to give out.
 

ZEROPILOT

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It's probably eaten that much on their own because they were lucky enough to be in a safe, artificial environment that allowed them enough protection in order to get the most out of the dead carcasses they happen to come upon. In nature, tortoises are often down at the bottom of the list when it comes to predator and prey, even larger species of birds can snatch up a non-giant species tortoise if not paying attention to their surroundings. This may possibly mean that they're not going get first dibs when it comes to dead carcasses. Every animal bigger and faster than tortoises are going to eat their fill before them. So the amount of animal protein they may eat in nature might not be as high as what an uninformed tortoise owner may want/like to feed their non-redfoot tortoise; ignoring other members of this forum's pleas, thinking that a little here and there is not going to hurt their baby.

That's exactly what's going to happen unless members continually answer these questions with super long winded and detailed explanations which the original poster may not even bother to read just like the many links to care sheets which are often ignored, or we can simply just tell them no. Even if this non-redfoot tortoise is capable of eating a little animal protein it should stick with denser, more fibrous options because that answer is a lot easier to give out.
Agreed.
I certainly won't advocate feeding rats and Blue jays!
 

Toddrickfl1

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My group has now made a meal out of 3 rats and 4 medium sized birds.
(That I know of. From evidence that I've found)
Your aren't the only one. Came outside once to find mine eating a dead bird also.
 

turtlesteve

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Quite an interesting post but I must say, the problems proposed with redfoots eating meat are pretty speculative. I certainly don’t believe that meat becomes toxic immediately after an animal dies.

It seems reasonable if not probable that they occasionally eat animal protein in the wild. I definitely see a problem with providing too much protein, but fail to see any reason to prefer plant protein over animal. I don’t provide it very often, maybe once a month. It’s usually something leftover from a family meal (cooked chicken or hard boiled eggs, usually).
 

Kapidolo Farms

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William Lee Kohler

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Good posting Will. A few years ago I used to ONLY ”juice” for my meals. Celery, chard, apples, greens, spinach, etc. ppl would also ask but but but where are you getting your protein from. Then i would provide them a similar speel about the other proteins out there!

Some info on hemp seeds...

Hemp seeds are one of the richest plant proteins in the world. Hemp protein is very unique plant source of protein because it is a complete protein containing nine essential amino acids. Some of the amino acids are histidine and arginine, which are required for growth and development, as well as repair of lean body tissue. These seeds are an excellent source of healthy fats and proteins. Some other benefits of hemp seeds are they boost energy, easy to digest, are good for the heart as they improve cholesterol levels and lower blood pressure levels. In addition, they control food cravings and improve the overall immunity.

Please lets stay away from any advocating for the dope industry. OK? There's plenty of other legitimate sources of protein. I feed em toadstools and sometimes canned cat food.
 

ZEROPILOT

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Please lets stay away from any advocating for the dope industry. OK? There's plenty of other legitimate sources of protein. I feed em toadstools and sometimes canned cat food.
I include dog food on rare instances. Because I also have a dog. So it's handy.
At any rate, protein never exceeds 5 percent of the diet.
 
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