Pyramiding as an Environmental Response

[stells]

Raised totally dry... well apart from the water bowl that they hardly visit... no humid hides... very rarely sprayed...

Testudo graeca Marokkensis... fresh hatchling and yearling...

 

[Tom]

Great photo Kelly. Glad to see that someone is able to do it right. What methods did you use to get these results and do you think that your methods would produce the same results with a redfoot, sulcata or leopard?

 

[PeanutbuttER]

Kelly, what do you think made the difference? Also, what's the humidity like in your area? That is a really great comparison, so whatever you did obviously did work and work well at that. Do you have any pictures of adults raised the same way?

 

[stells]

They have produced the same results with Hermanns... Horsfields... Ibera... i don't see where anyone gave specific species here for this to work as a theory with... i did use to keep Redfoots... but didn't keep them dry... i also keep stars... they have an option of humid and dry... i'm not saying this way will work for all tortoises.. but neither should it be said that it doesn't work for some...

Methods i used...

Overhead lighting... combined bulb...

Temps... 34 basking... 30 warm end... 22 cool end... temps in celcius... night time 18...

Soaked 3 times per week...

Water bowl in enclosure 24/7

Fed.. weeds/plants... supplimented at every feeding with vit suppliment containg D3

I would love to have a go with a Sulcata... and will do one day... when i have more room.... at the moment... i just don't have the room for big tortoises..

---

I live in the UK...

We are not so much humid... but cold and damp... and these guys have spent most of there days in doors... due to a bad summer...

I will look at the hygrometer and check humidity reading in the enclosure... i will also get pics of mum and dad... they were raised by a friend... pretty much the same way as i am raising these...

 

[Neal]

Good pictures stells, you can see the shell of the tortoise on the right looks completely dry yet it has a damn smooth shell. I have an indian star that I raised completely dry and has a smooth shell. Have you measured the humidity levels in all parts of your enclosure.

 

[John]

i'm confused by the pirog reference and i quote from his book"wild leopard tortoises often have pyramided shells,a condition seen in most other tortoise species only in captivity". sulcata and leopard tortoises page 13

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maybe pyramiding is a reponse too no avaailable water much like a camel.or a way of storing some other necesary nutrient that is not readily available in some areas or situations. just a thought

 

[Balboa]

Great Job on those Moroccans Kelly! From what little I've read they're "considered" one of the more difficult Greeks, I imagine in good hands they fair far better than average though.

I think you and possibly others may miss the point of my theory though. Its really got nothing to do with the actual biological process of pyramiding, and stems only from a big-picture outlook on what evidence I've seen about cause and effect regarding pyramiding (with a little gut instinct thrown in).

So as to why pyramided scute material remains thin on a pyramided tortoise? That has really nothing to do with what I'm saying here, but I will gladly talk about it. With the blame on too much protein, yes I would expect too thick scutes, and when I first started studying pyramiding, this is what I believed was happening. We've all seen that this is not happening, and the scute is thin with deformed bone directly underneath it. While it is entirely possible that the bone takes on the deformed shape all its own and the scute is forced to comply, I think most of us think its the other way around.

Bone density results from pressure. Part of the blame for osteoporosis in humans falls on lack of use. Bones that receive no stress will be "lightened" by the body, made porous, so the calcium can be used elsewhere or for whatever other reasons these things occur. Bones that receive regular use and stress become stronger, the body builds them up so they don't break.

This makes me assume as the tortoise grows, the bone pushes outwards on the scutes. As the scute forms each pyramid step it essentially is trying to lift up and away from the bone, this creates a low pressure area that the bone fills with porous, weak material, the bone close to the margins is under pressure from the scute edges, it becomes dense. (I believe Andy Highfield did refer to this process somewhat, though in a kind of backwards way to my mind, which is really just about semantics, the uneven pressure being applied to the bone by the pyramided scute).


In any case, I would expect a truely arid adapted tortoise (such as some of the greeks) to show little pyramiding from dry keeping.

Its the species that have been traditionally kept drier than they should be (based on observations of how they live in their environment more advanced than simply knowing they're from "Arid Africa" and reading about the sahara in a 1955 Encyclopedia) that my have my proposed theoretical pyramiding trigger built in.

It seems like an extreme response to extreme conditions that may make the difference between survival of the species and extinction of a local population.

I find the reference to Eds book from Squamata interesting, (and once again, want to get my hands on it).

Aside from actually testing for any thermal advantage to pyramiding, it would be nice to collect data on actual populations. If local populations of Leopards in Africa in areas afflicted with drought show higher rates of pyramiding as compared to local populations of closely related leopards under "normal" conditions elsewhere, this possibly supports my theory.... or at least the humidity/hydration theory.

Which brings up a point. Is this theory able to stand without the humidity/hydration theory? Possibly. It is also possible that "drought" conditions change the nature of food available to native populations, and the changed diet triggers the response. Maybe something of both.

---

Okay, thinking about what squamata said gives me another idea on how to phrase this.

Perhaps Pyramiding is a built in, adaptive response in tortoises to survive extreme conditions (primarily, excessive radiant heat for whatever reason, from the sun) and something, or maybe several somethings in how we care for these tortoises at times may trigger this response. By looking at possible scenarios that can result in an excessive thermal load and how those effect the environment of native tortoise populations we can gain clues as to how to correct our cares to more thorougly, and safely, prevent pyramiding in our tortoises.

 

[stells]

This is why i rarely post pictures to prove my point... no matter what i do its not good enough... i have seen plenty of pyramided and deformed greeks... hermanns (i have a deformed one here)... Horsfields... they aren't all easy to grow...

I won't bother any more... i have put alot of time and effort into growing these tortoises smooth... then you try and say oh it because its a greek and they fair better... just because humidity wasn't one of the factors i included...

Its funny how once i put the picture up... disproving the theory... this thread suddenly became slightly more species specific...

Sorry folks... i won't give anymore details on humidity levels in the enclosure... or pictures of the adults... as they are just greeks and don't count...

 

[egyptiandan]

Where to start, where to start

You can't compare a human with osteoporosis with a pyramided tortoise, it's not the same. Osteoporosis happens to bones that are done growing, with the calcium being taken out of the bone. Pyramiding happens with young growing bones of a tortoises carapace. It's something lacking or not enough of, when they are making the bone that is the problem here. Of course things happening in the outside world effect what is going on inside your tortoise.
You talk about humidity/hydration of tortoise species that most people keep dry as growing animals. Than go on to say pyramiding is a response to bad conditions. Well of course it is, as those bad conditions effect the tortoises body as it's growing. Okay we are talking say Leopard and Star tortoises in particular. These animals come from areas of the world the are pretty much stable temperature wise (except the Leopards from the southern parts of the range) and the seasons are wet and dry seasons as opposed to hot and cold for the most part. They also occur in places with an adequate amount of available calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D3 for good growth. Adequate if the conditions keep to the averages of the local weather. If say a tortoise is used to 3 months of rain and a drought years comes and they only get 2 months of rain. That will effect how long the tortoise has to eat dry vegetaions or eat at all. This would also extend a period of dehydration. This being dehydrated effects the inner workings of the tortoise's organs. Making them less able to process the vitamins and minerals needed to produce bone. This would make this tortoise slightly pyramided in the future as the adequate diet is no longer adequate as the tortoise can't extract what it needs as efficiently as it once did. Now have drier conditions happen 3 or 4 years in a row, than your going to have a nicely pyramided tortoise as this will really lower what the organs will be able to extract from the food. Once this has started, by a few drier than normal years, can never be reversed as the organs are already damaged and available diet is only adequate. Now if this happened in an area with an abundance of calcium and phosphorus, this abundance would offset what has happened to the internal organs and let the tortoise be able to still grow smoothly or smoother than it would have on just an adequate amount of calcium and phosphorus.
As for the scute and bone theory. The individual bones of the carapace can't pyramid as the seams of the bones don't follow the seams of the scutes (the scutes and the bones together are what make the carapace so ridgid). The scutes overlap most bone seams and any that don't (bone seams I'm talking here) run perpendicular to a scute seam. So to still be able to live, the bone (parts of different bones or one bone and parts of others) covered by a scute pyramid. This keeps the integrity of the carapace intact and lets the tortoise keep on living despite what has happened to the carapace.
So you really can't just pluck one thing out of the air and say EUREKA I've found why tortoises pyramid. It's a complex process of many interconnected things. Everything must be taken as a whole and figured out as a whole.

Very nice pictures Kelly You've done great with them

Danny

 

[Candy]

So does this mean that humidity alone is not the main component of a tortoises shell not pyramiding like some on here are trying to lead us to believe? I think I read this right Danny, but I've never seen you post this much before.

 

[Yvonne G]

Whew!, Danny!!! I don't think I've EVER heard you utter so many words all in the same post!!!

Please don't think like that, Kelly. We appreciate your pictures and the hard work it took to raise your babies smoothly. And they are absolutely beautiful! You should be very proud.

 

[kbaker]

So does this mean that humidity alone is not the main component of a tortoises shell not pyramiding like some on here are trying to lead us to believe? I think I read this right Danny, but I've never seen you post this much before.

I think you are confusing the part humidity plays with tortoises and pyramiding. Humidity is one 'tool' that can be used to deal with pyramiding, but if the situation requires a hammer, a screw driver will not work. Many things can cause a tortoise to dehydrate. Dehydration will cause many problems for a tortoise - organ failure, pyramiding,....
If a tortoise is not dehydrated and nothing is causing it to dehydrate, you do not need to do the same things as for a tortoise that is dehydrating.

Stells has found the 'balance' she needs to keep her tortoises growing smooth. At this point, no one can say for sure what that 'balance' really is, but I will bet her tortoises are not dehydrated. So, she does not need to increase humidity, soak more or spray more.

For some keepers on this forum, just keeping the humidity higher or spraying their tortoises is enough to 'balance' things. They are doing other things that effect the 'balance', but humidity/moister has made the most impact.

Stells-
This goes with what I mentioned before. We know two things for sure...pyramiding is in the bone and external humidity/moister decreases pyramiding. The external moister does not directly effect the bone, but what it does is slow down dehydration. Dehydration directly/indirectly effects the bone. It's debatable whether directly/indirectly/combination of each, but it does not matter. Find the cause of dehydration (whether environmental, nutritional, other health issues, external, internal,....), stop it and then maintain hydration.

And this is why it has to be a 'balance' and the 'balance' is different from keeper to keeper and tortoise to tortoise. If something is tipping the scales one way, you have to find something to tip back into the tortoise favor. The closer to balance without having any one thing tip heavy in either direction, the less anything will have an effect. Does this or that effect pyramiding? Sure it all does, but unless it is really effecting things extremly, you won't notice much and you may disreguard it.

 

[Balboa]

Where do I start.

Stells, Danny, I truly appreciate what you guys have to say. Stells keep posting. You have beautiful tortoises, and we want to know EXACTLY what you did to make that happen.

Danny, thank you so much. I don't think you've ever shared so much on your take on pyramiding.

What both of you fail to realize, is what you have to say does not dissprove my theory, yet you take the stance it does. If anything, Danny's post supports it. That tells me you do not understand what I'm saying, and that frustrates me. I don't know how else to express my idea. That makes ME want to give up.

 

[PeanutbuttER]

Balboa -

Now I'm not sure I understand your argument here. Your position is that pyramiding is a response to environmental stimuli, not in the sense that mistreatment/abuse will cause it rather that in dryer/hotter conditions the tort's adaptive response is to raise the scutes for whatever reason. In other words, it's an adaptation and not a sign of abuse.

Is that the gist of it?

 

[Candy]

So does this mean that humidity alone is not the main component of a tortoises shell not pyramiding like some on here are trying to lead us to believe? I think I read this right Danny, but I've never seen you post this much before.

I think you are confusing the part humidity plays with tortoises and pyramiding. Humidity is one 'tool' that can be used to deal with pyramiding, but if the situation requires a hammer, a screw driver will not work. Many things can cause a tortoise to dehydrate. Dehydration will cause many problems for a tortoise - organ failure, pyramiding,....
If a tortoise is not dehydrated and nothing is causing it to dehydrate, you do not need to do the same things as for a tortoise that is dehydrating.

Stells has found the 'balance' she needs to keep her tortoises growing smooth. At this point, no one can say for sure what that 'balance' really is, but I will bet her tortoises are not dehydrated. So, she does not need to increase humidity, soak more or spray more.

For some keepers on this forum, just keeping the humidity higher or spraying their tortoises is enough to 'balance' things. They are doing other things that effect the 'balance', but humidity/moister has made the most impact.

Stells-
This goes with what I mentioned before. We know two things for sure...pyramiding is in the bone and external humidity/moister decreases pyramiding. The external moister does not directly effect the bone, but what it does is slow down dehydration. Dehydration directly/indirectly effects the bone. It's debatable whether directly/indirectly/combination of each, but it does not matter. Find the cause of dehydration (whether environmental, nutritional, other health issues, external, internal,....), stop it and then maintain hydration.

And this is why it has to be a 'balance' and the 'balance' is different from keeper to keeper and tortoise to tortoise. If something is tipping the scales one way, you have to find something to tip back into the tortoise favor. The closer to balance without having any one thing tip heavy in either direction, the less anything will have an effect. Does this or that effect pyramiding? Sure it all does, but unless it is really effecting things extremly, you won't notice much and you may disreguard it.

I like the way you put this post, thanks. I think I'm understanding a little better now.

 

[Balboa]

Balboa -

Now I'm not sure I understand your argument here. Your position is that pyramiding is a response to environmental stimuli, not in the sense that mistreatment/abuse will cause it rather that in dryer/hotter conditions the tort's adaptive response is to raise the scutes for whatever reason. In other words, it's an adaptation and not a sign of abuse.

Is that the gist of it?

Very Close, and really just a matter of semantics and extremes beyond that.

IMHO I suspect that the necessary stimuli to trigger pyramiding amounts to abuse, as if this theory holds true, it is a response to extreme conditions that should not be replicated in captivity.

Also I should stress that this is a theoretical idea at this point, I cannot say that I BELIEVE this to be true. My point of posting was in hopes of gathering feedback on the idea to support/dissprove and to help me think about it.

If we try to envision the environmental conditions that would favor a pyramided tortoise, many factors of the tortoises life change. Like I stated earlier, its somewhat like raising a redfoot on the african savannah. The tortoise is exposed to drier air and more direct sun. The diet goes from one of mushrooms, leaves and fruits to dry grasses. To be more exact, as the idea is the environment itself in the local has changed, the green growth of the redfoots home has withered to dead fallen leaves. Food and water, once abundant, are now scarce. Rotting carrion from animals that did not survive the change may be a staple.

All of these factors could combine to trigger an adaptive response, or maybe just some.

 

[egyptiandan]

I do get what your theory is I just disagree with pyramiding being an adaptive response to bad conditions. It is though a response to bad conditions, just not an adaptive response.

Glad to suprise a few people

Danny

 

[Balboa]

I do get what your theory is I just disagree with pyramiding being an adaptive response to bad conditions. It is though a response to bad conditions, just not an adaptive response.

Glad to suprise a few people

Danny

Great Danny!

since you disagree, why? just your gut response or any argument against? you're one of the most knowledgeable and experienced keepers I know.

---

ok, Danny, I've gone over it all and I guess I can see why you disagree, my bad.

I agree with you that poor conditions can cause damage to internal organs. I guess I'm not convinced that that is a "sole" reason for pyramiding, yes a serious problem for torts, but not necessarily pyramiding causing.

 

[egyptiandan]

I never said it was a sole reason for pyramiding

"So you really can't just pluck one thing out of the air and say EUREKA I've found why tortoises pyramid. It's a complex process of many interconnected things. Everything must be taken as a whole and figured out as a whole."

Yes Candy I am saying that just one thing won't solve pyramiding.

Danny

 

[Balboa]

*bang bang bang*

that's the sound of my head hitting the desk repeatedly.

Love ya Danny, but man you can drive a person nuts.