Just doing my job 
Danny
Danny
Pyramiding as an Environmental Response
- Thread starter Balboa
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egyptiandan said:Just doing my job
Danny
LOL! Is that in the job description? (driving people nuts)
stells said:
I really hope you keep posting. It is really easy for any group to become overly insular and not see the bigger picture.
We can feel your frustration, but I also sense the frustration of the other posters. From what they can see, they are doing the same thing as you are with very different results and are wondering why.
I think there responses are more attempts to pick your brain- find out what is going on here- why are ours pyramiding while yours do not?
OK, so we are all doing about the same habitat stuff- maybe the differences are in the diet. May I ask what your feeding plan is?
egyptiandan said:I never said it was a sole reason for pyramiding
"So you really can't just pluck one thing out of the air and say EUREKA I've found why tortoises pyramid. It's a complex process of many interconnected things. Everything must be taken as a whole and figured out as a whole."
Yes Candy I am saying that just one thing won't solve pyramiding.
Danny
Thanks Danny that clears up a lot of confusion from things I've read before.
It's nice that you read every post before you respond. I like that. Thanks 
In order to test for any thermal advantage to pyramiding I performed an experiment today. I took two same size blocks of wood (I believe them to be Douglas Fir) and cut pyramiding into one then painted them black. Ideally I want to try this with a more tortoise shape model, but decided this would be good for proof of concept.
I drilled a hole into the center of each to place a probe for core temperature readings.
They each spent two hours in the "open top" enclosure from my enclosure experiments. They each basked for two hours under the same 75 watt spot lamp in 68 degree ambient room temps.
I then measured the center of each "scute" (each bump of the pyramided, and corresponding location on the smooth) as well as center of three sides and recorded the core temp. (All temps in Fahrenheit)
Smooth:
Scutes- 126,143,133,156,331,161,148,175,148
Sides- 84,89,87
Core- 90
Pyramided:
Scutes- 134,147,134,152,367,169,142,159,147
Sides- 82,82,86
Core- 85
Two things stand out to me.
1st ... HOLY CRAP!!! Over 300 degrees at that center scute directly under the lamp. Talk about literally cooking torts.
2nd... 5 degrees cooler core temp on the pyramided tort, despite similar surface temps. I do consider 5 degrees a serious advantage in "too hot" conditions. The flip side is true as well and has not been brought up. This could provide a disadvantage in overly cool conditions.
I would like to run these same tests for a longer "cook" time, and with a breeze to see if I continue to see similar results.
I drilled a hole into the center of each to place a probe for core temperature readings.
They each spent two hours in the "open top" enclosure from my enclosure experiments. They each basked for two hours under the same 75 watt spot lamp in 68 degree ambient room temps.
I then measured the center of each "scute" (each bump of the pyramided, and corresponding location on the smooth) as well as center of three sides and recorded the core temp. (All temps in Fahrenheit)
Smooth:
Scutes- 126,143,133,156,331,161,148,175,148
Sides- 84,89,87
Core- 90
Pyramided:
Scutes- 134,147,134,152,367,169,142,159,147
Sides- 82,82,86
Core- 85
Two things stand out to me.
1st ... HOLY CRAP!!! Over 300 degrees at that center scute directly under the lamp. Talk about literally cooking torts.
2nd... 5 degrees cooler core temp on the pyramided tort, despite similar surface temps. I do consider 5 degrees a serious advantage in "too hot" conditions. The flip side is true as well and has not been brought up. This could provide a disadvantage in overly cool conditions.
I would like to run these same tests for a longer "cook" time, and with a breeze to see if I continue to see similar results.
Two things stand out for me...
1) At least for young/small tortoises, they need to raise their core temps quickly and get out of site before something eats it.
2) The higher temps are at the top vertibra scutes (spelling?) which goes with why those scutes tend to pyramid first/quicker.
Now for your next experiment...soak and spray the blocks of wood to keep them from pryramiding.
No, we probably can't recreate a tortoise for this experiment, but important thing to take a way here is the differences/similarities of the results of the two blocks. It may not be exact for a tortoise, but we can apply the ideas to a tortoise to help us understand. Like for core temps, they may not be those temps for a tortoise and they might be a few degrees +/- compared to each other, but I am sure they won't be the same and the one will be higher than the other.
1) At least for young/small tortoises, they need to raise their core temps quickly and get out of site before something eats it.
2) The higher temps are at the top vertibra scutes (spelling?) which goes with why those scutes tend to pyramid first/quicker.
Now for your next experiment...soak and spray the blocks of wood to keep them from pryramiding.
Neal Butler said:
No, we probably can't recreate a tortoise for this experiment, but important thing to take a way here is the differences/similarities of the results of the two blocks. It may not be exact for a tortoise, but we can apply the ideas to a tortoise to help us understand. Like for core temps, they may not be those temps for a tortoise and they might be a few degrees +/- compared to each other, but I am sure they won't be the same and the one will be higher than the other.
Thanks
Yah, wood was the easiest to work with, most comparable to a tortoise thing I have. As K said, it proves the concept. I was still questioning the amount of difference pyramiding would make (pyramids aren't exactly as distinctive as fins on an engine).
If I could get my hands on two same size shells from dead torts, one pyramided, one smooth, and fill them with ballistics gel or something like that it would certainly give more comparable results. I'm really not interested in the leg work to try and locate some, and am DEFINATELY not willing to sacrifice living torts in the name of science. I'm also not likely to ever be willing to "corral" living torts and subject them to heating experiments even if I had a suitable pair.
I am considering having a couple ceramic "shells" made. I'm not sure how close ceramic is to bone, but probably closer than wood (but then again maybe not, seems like ceramic may be denser).
I thought more last night on the full implications here. Even if my hunch about pyramiding being an adaptive response is wrong, if the thermal differences between pyramided and smooth shelled tortoises continues to hold true in further experiments, that places pyramided torts at a SERIOUS disadvantage in "normal" conditions.
They would need to spend greater amounts of time basking, which leads to further dehydration risks, or "live with" cooler core temps which leads to poor digestion and possible nutritional defficencies. Plays into the, "Once pyramiding is started, its hard to stop" concept. As K pointed out, a wild pyramided baby in "normal" temp environments would need to risk longer exposure times, thus likely falling prey.
Then again.... a further correction to myself, even though they are cold-blooded, many torts do generate a portion of their own body heat through activity. That may explain some of the "hyper-activity" in my Rocky. She's like a "shark" most days, she never stops moving (and she is pyramided for those that have not seen her picture).
The Pyramided tort would then be able to cool off quicker when needed, and/or maintain a higher activity level than a smooth shell at same temps.
Yah, wood was the easiest to work with, most comparable to a tortoise thing I have. As K said, it proves the concept. I was still questioning the amount of difference pyramiding would make (pyramids aren't exactly as distinctive as fins on an engine).
If I could get my hands on two same size shells from dead torts, one pyramided, one smooth, and fill them with ballistics gel or something like that it would certainly give more comparable results. I'm really not interested in the leg work to try and locate some, and am DEFINATELY not willing to sacrifice living torts in the name of science. I'm also not likely to ever be willing to "corral" living torts and subject them to heating experiments even if I had a suitable pair.
I am considering having a couple ceramic "shells" made. I'm not sure how close ceramic is to bone, but probably closer than wood (but then again maybe not, seems like ceramic may be denser).
I thought more last night on the full implications here. Even if my hunch about pyramiding being an adaptive response is wrong, if the thermal differences between pyramided and smooth shelled tortoises continues to hold true in further experiments, that places pyramided torts at a SERIOUS disadvantage in "normal" conditions.
They would need to spend greater amounts of time basking, which leads to further dehydration risks, or "live with" cooler core temps which leads to poor digestion and possible nutritional defficencies. Plays into the, "Once pyramiding is started, its hard to stop" concept. As K pointed out, a wild pyramided baby in "normal" temp environments would need to risk longer exposure times, thus likely falling prey.
Then again.... a further correction to myself, even though they are cold-blooded, many torts do generate a portion of their own body heat through activity. That may explain some of the "hyper-activity" in my Rocky. She's like a "shark" most days, she never stops moving (and she is pyramided for those that have not seen her picture).
The Pyramided tort would then be able to cool off quicker when needed, and/or maintain a higher activity level than a smooth shell at same temps.
Frustrating.... todays experiments were botched.
I decided to test for the effect of a "breeze" so placed the "torts" in the open under the heat lamp with the ceiling fan on. During the pyramided run the fan was shut off at some point, for an unknown length of time. This of course allowed it to heat up quicker. As a consequence both had 86 degree core temps after 4 hours (and still rising). Were it not for the fact that both temps were still rising I'd be inclined to think 86 was the equilibrium temp and the pyramiding made no difference, hopefully that was just a coincidence.
I should have probably used smaller blocks to allow them to hit equilibrium quicker, as a full equilibrium run for each will be the next step. Who knows how long that will take.
I decided to test for the effect of a "breeze" so placed the "torts" in the open under the heat lamp with the ceiling fan on. During the pyramided run the fan was shut off at some point, for an unknown length of time. This of course allowed it to heat up quicker. As a consequence both had 86 degree core temps after 4 hours (and still rising). Were it not for the fact that both temps were still rising I'd be inclined to think 86 was the equilibrium temp and the pyramiding made no difference, hopefully that was just a coincidence.
I should have probably used smaller blocks to allow them to hit equilibrium quicker, as a full equilibrium run for each will be the next step. Who knows how long that will take.
I repeated the pyramided, 4 hour "breeze" test today, this time with the fan staying on the full time. Results are as follows:
Smooth:
Scutes- 128,155,134,144,294,154,124,149,126
Sides- 82,86,82
Core- 86.7
Pyramided:
Scutes- 123,148,128,146,301,170,125,156,137
Sides- 81,79,83
Core- 85.8
Close enough to show no distinctive advantage/disadvantage whatsoever. I had initially expected the pyramided to really keep substantially cooler here, but on further thought that expectation is flawed. The breeze raises the heat shedding capability of the wood, and as such the sides will become more "active" in cooling the blocks, minimizing much of the difference between blocks. I believe however, that the smooth sides on the pyramided block more accurately depicts a tortoise as the bulk of pyramiding is more "on top" in real tortoises than if I were to pyramid the sides as well. Once again more accurate models may yield slightly different results.
This tells me that if the initial experiment was not a fluke any thermal difference attributable to pyramiding that may or may not be an adaptive response in tortoises is more related to sunlight exposure than ambient temperatures.
Next up will be to look for equilibrium temps of the blocks. Hopefully that won't take too long to achieve. As we speak the pyramided is back in the enclosure under the lamp. Once I see little to no temperature change for an hour I'll consider that equilibrium.
Smooth:
Scutes- 128,155,134,144,294,154,124,149,126
Sides- 82,86,82
Core- 86.7
Pyramided:
Scutes- 123,148,128,146,301,170,125,156,137
Sides- 81,79,83
Core- 85.8
Close enough to show no distinctive advantage/disadvantage whatsoever. I had initially expected the pyramided to really keep substantially cooler here, but on further thought that expectation is flawed. The breeze raises the heat shedding capability of the wood, and as such the sides will become more "active" in cooling the blocks, minimizing much of the difference between blocks. I believe however, that the smooth sides on the pyramided block more accurately depicts a tortoise as the bulk of pyramiding is more "on top" in real tortoises than if I were to pyramid the sides as well. Once again more accurate models may yield slightly different results.
This tells me that if the initial experiment was not a fluke any thermal difference attributable to pyramiding that may or may not be an adaptive response in tortoises is more related to sunlight exposure than ambient temperatures.
Next up will be to look for equilibrium temps of the blocks. Hopefully that won't take too long to achieve. As we speak the pyramided is back in the enclosure under the lamp. Once I see little to no temperature change for an hour I'll consider that equilibrium.
Wait a minute Balboa. You may not be wrong in your thoughts. Your using a block of wood and comparing it to a LIVE shell. Your dead piece of wood, however thick it is, is only representing a small part of a tortoises shell/scute. There are other things going on under that shell. Your wood may only be representing about 1=3cm of shell at the most, depending on the size of the animal. We assume tortoise shells dry out to some degree and therefore we can assume that they transpire moisture along with heat. Your blocks of wood heat up and may or may not transpire anything but heat. If you could scale the wood compared to the top 1-3cm of shell along with the time it takes 1-3cm of shell to heat and cool, your 1-3 degrees of separation could be in all actuallity.... huge. Tie in the rate at witch your wood heats and cools, scale that to a tortoise shell and you could be talkin about a real difference between the 2. I think rate of heating and cooling could also play a part in your theory. Hope I made sence
Yup, you make perfect sense Ona. More reason to come up with a better model
The rate is another factor I was hoping to test for as well, just takes time.
The "offgassing" of water vapor is another issue to be tackled. Evaporation from a shell/skin either real or simulated has an effect on temps. After all this cooking this will be some very dry wood, and I imagine the drier the wood, the poorer at conducting heat.
I had to raise the light this evening, core is up to 90, but the center scute started to combust!
I never saw any flame or smoke, but can smell it, so essentially its more like its being distilled (remembering back to science class in school where we heated wood in a test tube, it turned to char, and we collected the combustible gasses generated).
It is very clear to me that the spotlight I'm using has an intensely hot focused beam at its center. Totally unrelated, but possibly equally important as a safety measure I want to check more lamps for this hot spot. This could prove very damaging to reptiles.
The rate is another factor I was hoping to test for as well, just takes time.
The "offgassing" of water vapor is another issue to be tackled. Evaporation from a shell/skin either real or simulated has an effect on temps. After all this cooking this will be some very dry wood, and I imagine the drier the wood, the poorer at conducting heat.
I had to raise the light this evening, core is up to 90, but the center scute started to combust!
I never saw any flame or smoke, but can smell it, so essentially its more like its being distilled (remembering back to science class in school where we heated wood in a test tube, it turned to char, and we collected the combustible gasses generated).
It is very clear to me that the spotlight I'm using has an intensely hot focused beam at its center. Totally unrelated, but possibly equally important as a safety measure I want to check more lamps for this hot spot. This could prove very damaging to reptiles.
S
stells
Guest
Mark... thanks... i will PM you my diet regime (well the tortoises)... when i have a little bit of spare time... which will be when the kids go back to school lol...
I won't put it up on here... i don't need to post on these pyramiding thread anymore... i don't have a problem with it here... but am shot down at every opportunity... and i have bigger things to worry about at the moment...
I won't put it up on here... i don't need to post on these pyramiding thread anymore... i don't have a problem with it here... but am shot down at every opportunity... and i have bigger things to worry about at the moment...
I'm sorry you feel so put out Kelly, I don't think you understand, this is not a "pyramiding thread" in the normal sense. I have proposed a theory, based on a hunch as to thermal properties of pyramided shells versus smooth. I'm VERY interested in hearing about how you raise your torts with good success, in the correct context. Unless you can demonstrate how you raised your torts proves that pyramiding is not an adaptive response to their environment, it doesn't really contribute here.
I believe you jumped on this thinking its another "keep em hot and keep em humid", and want to prove that wrong. Sorry, while hot and humid may indeed be the correct environment to prevent pyramiding in some species, it may not be for all.
I really don't know how else to explain this to you.
I would suggest maybe posting a thread showing how you raise your torts in great detail, and laying out your ideas about how this dissproves "keep em hot and keep em humid" if that's your goal. I would love to read what you have to say on the matter.
I believe you jumped on this thinking its another "keep em hot and keep em humid", and want to prove that wrong. Sorry, while hot and humid may indeed be the correct environment to prevent pyramiding in some species, it may not be for all.
I really don't know how else to explain this to you.
I would suggest maybe posting a thread showing how you raise your torts in great detail, and laying out your ideas about how this dissproves "keep em hot and keep em humid" if that's your goal. I would love to read what you have to say on the matter.
S
stells
Guest
You don't need to explain it... maybe you should understand... i'm not out to prove a theory wrong... my stars have a hot/humid end... my meds don't... i understand what you were saying about it being an adaptive response to enviromental conditions... i don't agree... but that is my opinion... i don't need to post up details on how i keep mine... to prove anything... and don't have the desire to prove myself...
I wish you the best with your theory... and hope you get the answers from it that you want...
I wish you the best with your theory... and hope you get the answers from it that you want...
Neal Butler said:
How much will you pay? All I need is enough to cover air fair and buy a little food when I get there
You're not alone in this, I'd really love to know more myself on all species, especially the leopards as I hope to be acquiring some soon.
The equilibrium experiments turned out much like the "breeze" actually. Only 1 degree difference, the pyramided being cooler. As stated before, not the kind of difference I was expecting to see, but as Ona pointed out, possibly enough. It is a definate, repeating trend so far, the pyramided comes up cooler every time (even if its not always by much).
At this point I really need to see about an improved model and probably dig into more of the physics, biology and mathematics.
-How much of a difference does it really take to affect an organism? Of course us mammals get a fever, and even though we may only be 2 or 3 degrees warmer we can feel terrible from it. Obviously cold-bloodeds are used to their temperatures fluctuating more drastically.
-What is the actual expected thermal loss difference between the two shells based on surface area. There are certainly formulas to describe this.
As to making my new model, I'm thinking about taking an imprint of Rocky for the Pyramided. Maybe mold some play-dough or whatever around her shell quickly, I don't want to cause her undue stress like a "proper" mold would require. I could then use some sprayfoam or the like to create a "Rocky" model from that imprint and then form a better mold around that, plaster of paris or something. Any ideas here would be appreciated.
I then still have the trouble of a smooth model. Not having a smooth tort in my care makes this difficult, and may require artistic efforts on my part.... ruh roh.
I will likely just start by attempting to sculpt both from clay. That means I don't have to bother Rocky at all for this. We'll see how well I can do at sculpting pyramids.
Any ideas for "guts"? A hunk of meat of some kind might be ideal, but would likely get a little stinky before long.
Balboa said:Yup, you make perfect sense Ona. More reason to come up with a better model
The rate is another factor I was hoping to test for as well, just takes time.
The "offgassing" of water vapor is another issue to be tackled. Evaporation from a shell/skin either real or simulated has an effect on temps. After all this cooking this will be some very dry wood, and I imagine the drier the wood, the poorer at conducting heat.
I had to raise the light this evening, core is up to 90, but the center scute started to combust!
I never saw any flame or smoke, but can smell it, so essentially its more like its being distilled (remembering back to science class in school where we heated wood in a test tube, it turned to char, and we collected the combustible gasses generated).
It is very clear to me that the spotlight I'm using has an intensely hot focused beam at its center. Totally unrelated, but possibly equally important as a safety measure I want to check more lamps for this hot spot. This could prove very damaging to reptiles.
I believe this is exactly what happened to Chewy's scutes. (You know my new female with the exposed bone at the tops of her pyramids). She's perfectly healthy and doing well, by the way.
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