Questions about my sulcata

[dragonmomma]

My sulcata, Tank is very lethargic and has been staying in his little cave. He will has gone for up to3 days without eating.
Then he ate, then went back into his cave. I have to pull him out in order to give him a soak.

His shell has gotten a little soft on the bottom and a couple of place on top are soft.

Is this normal winter behavior? He weighs about 100g.

He also seems to be having trouble walking. Can tortoises shells get to big
for their legs?

 

[BrinnANDTorts]

My sulcata, Tank is very lethargic and has been staying in his little cave. He will has gone for up to3 days without eating.
Then he ate, then went back into his cave. I have to pull him out in order to give him a soak.

His shell has gotten a little soft on the bottom and a couple of place on top are soft.

Is this normal winter behavior? He weighs about 100g.

He also seems to be having trouble walking. Can tortoises shells get to big
for their legs?

It sounds like your tortoise has MBD Metabolic bone disease and thats serious. You need to start giving him lots of calcium with vitamin D supplements sprinkled on his food and give him as much natural sunlight as possible and then get him a powersun mercury vapor bulb and turn it on 12 hours a day
plus you need to make sure you is staying hydrated. Mist you Lots and lots of times a day and soak him for a long time (30 min at least , I do hour long soaks) everyday under the powersun bulb to keep the water warm and mist him while he is in the soak
Also he needs a humid hide and the humidity in his cage needs to be at least 80%

What are your conditions right now on humidity, mistings, and soaks?
What bulbs have you been using to give him UVB? Have you been taking him outside of sunshine? What supplements are you giving him? his diet?

I would check out all these links

this is about the best enclosures for sulcata tortoises
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Closed-Chambers#axzz1hkZxITMK

These are care sheets , one is for leopard tortoises but it works really well for sulcatas . Tom's how to raise hathcling sulcatas is the most important though
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-To-Raise-Sulcata-Hatchlings-and-Babies#axzz1i4Ds8pC6
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Leopard-Tortoise-Care-Sheet#axzz1i4Ds8pC6

This one is about hatchling failure syndrome and how to prevent it 
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Hatchling-Failure-Syndrome#axzz1i4Ds8pC6

These threads are about pyramiding
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding#axzz1i4Ds8pC6
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding-II-The-Leopards#axzz1i4Ds8pC6

---

Thats not normal behavior by the way , sorry I forgot to answer that question. Having trouble walking and a soft shell with very little eating and activity is signs of Metabolic Bone Disease so to be safe I would start treating him for it. It could also be really bad dehydration so I would also fix that too..if you are doing the humidity and soaks and mistings then its probably not that and more the bone disease..
If you could post a picture of your baby too at different angles so we could see his shell that would be nice , cause sometimes the shape of the shell if it has a dip in the back is another sign of metabolic bone disease
The threads I gave you , the one on how to raise hatchlings and the hatchling failure ones (both by Tom) are the most important for you right now
I hope your little guy gets better

---

Once you answer the questions about how you are keeping him and what you are feeding him along with lots of pictures of his set up and his shell every one will be able to give you a lot better more specific advice

 

[CtTortoiseMom]

Sounds like your sully needs to go to a exotic pet vet. Keep us posted and good luck!

 

[Maggie Cummings]

It does sound like he has MBD and it is very serious. If he were mine I would get him to a Vet asap and get liquid Calcionate from them. That's the best thing you can do for him right now. Please keep us posted and get him to the vet tomorrow. I am not exaggerating when I tell you how serious this is. It can be fatal, so you need to get on top of it right now. Do you have a Vet you take him to?

 

[dragonmomma]

My sulcata, Tank is very lethargic and has been staying in his little cave. He will has gone for up to3 days without eating.
Then he ate, then went back into his cave. I have to pull him out in order to give him a soak.

His shell has gotten a little soft on the bottom and a couple of place on top are soft.

Is this normal winter behavior? He weighs about 100g.

He also seems to be having trouble walking. Can tortoises shells get to big
for their legs?

It sounds like your tortoise has MBD Metabolic bone disease and thats serious. You need to start giving him lots of calcium with vitamin D supplements sprinkled on his food and give him as much natural sunlight as possible and then get him a powersun mercury vapor bulb and turn it on 12 hours a day
plus you need to make sure you is staying hydrated. Mist you Lots and lots of times a day and soak him for a long time (30 min at least , I do hour long soaks) everyday under the powersun bulb to keep the water warm and mist him while he is in the soak
Also he needs a humid hide and the humidity in his cage needs to be at least 80%

What are your conditions right now on humidity, mistings, and soaks?
What bulbs have you been using to give him UVB? Have you been taking him outside of sunshine? What supplements are you giving him? his diet?

I would check out all these links

this is about the best enclosures for sulcata tortoises
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Closed-Chambers#axzz1hkZxITMK

These are care sheets , one is for leopard tortoises but it works really well for sulcatas . Tom's how to raise hathcling sulcatas is the most important though
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-To-Raise-Sulcata-Hatchlings-and-Babies#axzz1i4Ds8pC6
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Leopard-Tortoise-Care-Sheet#axzz1i4Ds8pC6

This one is about hatchling failure syndrome and how to prevent it 
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Hatchling-Failure-Syndrome#axzz1i4Ds8pC6

These threads are about pyramiding
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding#axzz1i4Ds8pC6
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-The-End-Of-Pyramiding-II-The-Leopards#axzz1i4Ds8pC6

---

Thats not normal behavior by the way , sorry I forgot to answer that question. Having trouble walking and a soft shell with very little eating and activity is signs of Metabolic Bone Disease so to be safe I would start treating him for it. It could also be really bad dehydration so I would also fix that too..if you are doing the humidity and soaks and mistings then its probably not that and more the bone disease..
If you could post a picture of your baby too at different angles so we could see his shell that would be nice , cause sometimes the shape of the shell if it has a dip in the back is another sign of metabolic bone disease
The threads I gave you , the one on how to raise hatchlings and the hatchling failure ones (both by Tom) are the most important for you right now
I hope your little guy gets better

---

Once you answer the questions about how you are keeping him and what you are feeding him along with lots of pictures of his set up and his shell every one will be able to give you a lot better more specific advice

---

---

His habitat is at 40% humidity, I had been told it got too humid he could get respiratory infections. He eats mostly green, red, radicchio leaf lettuces and carrots because he doesn't seem to like anything else. I do soak him and I have not quite understood how you do this and keep the water warm enough for him for extended periods.

I add calcium to his food and the water he gets soaked in.

What is the best way to keep humidity in the habitat?

I will take him to the vet tomorrow.

 

[BrinnANDTorts]

It needs to be much more humid in his enclosure , like 80% or higher.
Your little sullie will not get sick as long as its 80 at least in his enclosure. Temps should never drop below 80 degrees really..
And calcium without vitamin D3 is useless... he has to have vitamin D3 to process the calcium to make his bones and shell strong. UVB gives them vitamin D3 and they have supplement D3
When I soak my sullies they soak under a 100 watt powersun bulb and the bulb keeps the water warm for the whole hour
If you read those threads I posted they will tell you the best way to raise your sullie and keep humidity up is in a "closed chamber"
Thats basically where you have a cover over the whole enclosure... lights and everything
That all can be fixed very easily after your tortoise gets better
let us know how the vet visit goes

 

[dragonmomma]

It needs to be much more humid in his enclosure , like 80% or higher.
Your little sullie will not get sick as long as its 80 at least in his enclosure. Temps should never drop below 80 degrees really..
And calcium without vitamin D3 is useless... he has to have vitamin D3 to process the calcium to make his bones and shell strong. UVB gives them vitamin D3 and they have supplement D3
When I soak my sullies they soak under a 100 watt powersun bulb and the bulb keeps the water warm for the whole hour
If you read those threads I posted they will tell you the best way to raise your sullie and keep humidity up is in a "closed chamber"
Thats basically where you have a cover over the whole enclosure... lights and everything
That all can be fixed very easily after your tortoise gets better
let us know how the vet visit goes

Thank you for your help. Tank is the first sulcata I have
had that has been active. The very first one was Herbie. I rescued
him from a pet store, but he was in really bad shape and did not live
long. I was devastated by his death and my niece brought home Tank.
He has been doing great until recently.
I really appreciate all the advice I receive and
will do my best to upgrade Tank's home as soon as possible.

 

[BrinnANDTorts]

What have you been using for his source of UVB? Natural sunshine, mercury vapor bulb, or one of the long tube fluorescent like the reptisun 10.0 ?

 

[dragonmomma]

What have you been using for his source of UVB? Natural sunshine, mercury vapor bulb, or one of the long tube fluorescent like the reptisun 10.0 ?

I am not sure what kind of light bulb it is. I know it is of a mercury vapor bulb.
Most of the time I was using the sunshine, but now that it is winter
it isn't as much.
I also know that what I was told about how warm to keep it was incorrect as well.
It has been too cold for him as well.
I have a lot to learn, I just hope it is not too late for my Tank.
I really do love him!!

 

[Weda737]

Oh man, good luck, I'm sorry you got steered wrong about how to raise your baby. We know a lot now about the humidity, my vet herself has had no success raising sulcata babies because she still believes in the humidity makes respiratory infections thing. She's tried 3 different times and all her babies died. You don't need to worry about respiratory problems, like the others have said, if you keep the temps up. Right now though it sounds like Sunshine is your best friend. I've never had this problem with my sulcata, but have had quite a few other reptile rescues with MBD and have managed to bring them back from the brink. Don't give up, there is hope, with a lot of work and dedication. Come to think of it, before I got my Red eared slider from my mom, it was hers at the time, his shell had gotten so soft you could see his little organs pumping inside, we put him out in the sun and upped his calcium doses, now he's a healthy, if not a little grumpy, turtle. Best of luck to you. You can fix this.

 

[ripper7777777]

There are many different theories about temps and humidity, from dry to wet and everything in between.

I like this site.

http://ojaisulcataproject.org/index.html

Do keep us posted about what the vet says, maggie knows her stuff so post up any info they give you and I'm sure she can make sure it's all up to date and correct.

 

[Tom]

This is a perplexing case. If you were using sunshine and a MVB, plus a calcium supplement, then MBD just seems unlikely. Your diet needs improvement, but with the calcium supplement, you should still be okay. Hatchling failure syndrome is a possibility, but usually they will not make it to 100 grams if this is the case...

Please check to see specifically what brand, type and wattage your bulb is. This really matters. Also, do you have an outdoor pen? Was your tortoise outside in the warmer weather in DIRECT, unfiltered sunshine, or did it get sunshine through a window while indoors? How old is your little guy and how long have you had him?

BrinnANDGupta already linked you the threads that I would refer you to.

No disrespect to anyone, especially ripper7777777, but I strongly disagree with Dave's info on sulcatas for babies. (Dave Friend is the owner of the Ojai Sulcata Project) I know Dave personally and have had several conversations with him on this. Some history: Dave's an old school guy. He's also a good guy and loves tortoises to no end. He wants the best for all sulcatas, as do I, and we just disagree about what is "best". For many years the old school methods failed me and everyone else. Through lots of time, study, observation and experimentation, I have found new methods that don't fail and result in "natural" looking, healthy tortoises. Dave seems to have found my new info and set his site up specifically questioning and attempting to debunk each point. He and I have much more to discuss and have never finished our conversation, but so far we disagree on many points. I respect and admire this man, so don't get me wrong, but I did not see any hatchlings at his place on a recent visit, and I believe most of his info is great for older, bigger sulcatas, but not for tiny babies. Just remember that everyone seems to have an opinion on all this, but when I make a decision on whose opinion to listen to, I want to see results. I have not seen Dave's results, but I am working on a collaboration with him to try his methods at my place and post the results. Which reminds me, I've gotta get in touch with him...

Good luck with your baby.

 

[ripper7777777]

This is a perplexing case. If you were using sunshine and a MVB, plus a calcium supplement, then MBD just seems unlikely. Your diet needs improvement, but with the calcium supplement, you should still be okay. Hatchling failure syndrome is a possibility, but usually they will not make it to 100 grams if this is the case...

Please check to see specifically what brand, type and wattage your bulb is. This really matters. Also, do you have an outdoor pen? Was your tortoise outside in the warmer weather in DIRECT, unfiltered sunshine, or did it get sunshine through a window while indoors? How old is your little guy and how long have you had him?

BrinnANDGupta already linked you the threads that I would refer you to.

No disrespect to anyone, especially ripper7777777, but I strongly disagree with Dave's info on sulcatas for babies. (Dave Friend is the owner of the Ojai Sulcata Project) I know Dave personally and have had several conversations with him on this. Some history: Dave's an old school guy. He's also a good guy and loves tortoises to no end. He wants the best for all sulcatas, as do I, and we just disagree about what is "best". For many years the old school methods failed me and everyone else. Through lots of time, study, observation and experimentation, I have found new methods that don't fail and result in "natural" looking, healthy tortoises. Dave seems to have found my new info and set his site up specifically questioning and attempting to debunk each point. He and I have much more to discuss and have never finished our conversation, but so far we disagree on many points. I respect and admire this man, so don't get me wrong, but I did not see any hatchlings at his place on a recent visit, and I believe most of his info is great for older, bigger sulcatas, but not for tiny babies. Just remember that everyone seems to have an opinion on all this, but when I make a decision on whose opinion to listen to, I want to see results. I have not seen Dave's results, but I am working on a collaboration with him to try his methods at my place and post the results. Which reminds me, I've gotta get in touch with him...

Good luck with your baby.

Not to end up off topic, but no worries Tom, I don't follow it to the letter or recommend anyone does, I just think his site has some good info. But I do offer soaks/baths and I do use aquariums. I was told it had been updated and that he used to recommend dry but now 45% to 50% humidity I believe, but I never saw his old site. I will say some of his stuff did make me wonder if it was directed at you.

I think you should read everything you find about the care of the species and then make your decisions based on the evidence provided by the person who created the care sheet that best suits you and your setup.




Sorry not trying to derail the thread, just passing the time until we get a Vet update.

 

[dragonmomma]

This is a perplexing case. If you were using sunshine and a MVB, plus a calcium supplement, then MBD just seems unlikely. Your diet needs improvement, but with the calcium supplement, you should still be okay. Hatchling failure syndrome is a possibility, but usually they will not make it to 100 grams if this is the case...

Please check to see specifically what brand, type and wattage your bulb is. This really matters. Also, do you have an outdoor pen? Was your tortoise outside in the warmer weather in DIRECT, unfiltered sunshine, or did it get sunshine through a window while indoors? How old is your little guy and how long have you had him?

BrinnANDGupta already linked you the threads that I would refer you to.

No disrespect to anyone, especially ripper7777777, but I strongly disagree with Dave's info on sulcatas for babies. (Dave Friend is the owner of the Ojai Sulcata Project) I know Dave personally and have had several conversations with him on this. Some history: Dave's an old school guy. He's also a good guy and loves tortoises to no end. He wants the best for all sulcatas, as do I, and we just disagree about what is "best". For many years the old school methods failed me and everyone else. Through lots of time, study, observation and experimentation, I have found new methods that don't fail and result in "natural" looking, healthy tortoises. Dave seems to have found my new info and set his site up specifically questioning and attempting to debunk each point. He and I have much more to discuss and have never finished our conversation, but so far we disagree on many points. I respect and admire this man, so don't get me wrong, but I did not see any hatchlings at his place on a recent visit, and I believe most of his info is great for older, bigger sulcatas, but not for tiny babies. Just remember that everyone seems to have an opinion on all this, but when I make a decision on whose opinion to listen to, I want to see results. I have not seen Dave's results, but I am working on a collaboration with him to try his methods at my place and post the results. Which reminds me, I've gotta get in touch with him...

Good luck with your baby.

Hi Tom,
Thank you for your response. Tank had been doing very well up to Christmas. Or so I thought. I will check on all the lighting types and make the necessary changes. He is going to the vet this afternoon and I will let everyone know what he says. Thanks for all the good info and caring comments.

 

[dragonmomma]

Thanks to all who responded with information I could use for
my sulcata Tank.
The vet said I need to get the temperature in his habitat under
control. That he had gotten too cold. So with help from my niece
I have everything I need to get his habitat
under control.
I will try to get some photos posted, but I am challenged in that way.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

This is a perplexing case. If you were using sunshine and a MVB, plus a calcium supplement, then MBD just seems unlikely. Your diet needs improvement, but with the calcium supplement, you should still be okay. Hatchling failure syndrome is a possibility, but usually they will not make it to 100 grams if this is the case...

Please check to see specifically what brand, type and wattage your bulb is. This really matters. Also, do you have an outdoor pen? Was your tortoise outside in the warmer weather in DIRECT, unfiltered sunshine, or did it get sunshine through a window while indoors? How old is your little guy and how long have you had him?

BrinnANDGupta already linked you the threads that I would refer you to.

No disrespect to anyone, especially ripper7777777, but I strongly disagree with Dave's info on sulcatas for babies. (Dave Friend is the owner of the Ojai Sulcata Project) I know Dave personally and have had several conversations with him on this. Some history: Dave's an old school guy. He's also a good guy and loves tortoises to no end. He wants the best for all sulcatas, as do I, and we just disagree about what is "best". For many years the old school methods failed me and everyone else. Through lots of time, study, observation and experimentation, I have found new methods that don't fail and result in "natural" looking, healthy tortoises. Dave seems to have found my new info and set his site up specifically questioning and attempting to debunk each point. He and I have much more to discuss and have never finished our conversation, but so far we disagree on many points. I respect and admire this man, so don't get me wrong, but I did not see any hatchlings at his place on a recent visit, and I believe most of his info is great for older, bigger sulcatas, but not for tiny babies. Just remember that everyone seems to have an opinion on all this, but when I make a decision on whose opinion to listen to, I want to see results. I have not seen Dave's results, but I am working on a collaboration with him to try his methods at my place and post the results. Which reminds me, I've gotta get in touch with him...

Good luck with your baby.

Not to end up off topic, but no worries Tom, I don't follow it to the letter or recommend anyone does, I just think his site has some good info. But I do offer soaks/baths and I do use aquariums. I was told it had been updated and that he used to recommend dry but now 45% to 50% humidity I believe, but I never saw his old site. I will say some of his stuff did make me wonder if it was directed at you.

I think you should read everything you find about the care of the species and then make your decisions based on the evidence provided by the person who created the care sheet that best suits you and your setup.




Sorry not trying to derail the thread, just passing the time until we get a Vet update.

I agree with you, I also use soaks and aquariums.

I disagree with soaking for an hour. That is much too long. If a tortoise is going to drink he will do it in the first 10 minutes. Soaking for an hour is only good if you are using a baby food soak, but for an hour every day that is wrong. For one thing it forces the feces out too soon so the food does not get metabolized. I too apologize for derailing the thread...

 

[dragonmomma]

This is a perplexing case. If you were using sunshine and a MVB, plus a calcium supplement, then MBD just seems unlikely. Your diet needs improvement, but with the calcium supplement, you should still be okay. Hatchling failure syndrome is a possibility, but usually they will not make it to 100 grams if this is the case...

Please check to see specifically what brand, type and wattage your bulb is. This really matters. Also, do you have an outdoor pen? Was your tortoise outside in the warmer weather in DIRECT, unfiltered sunshine, or did it get sunshine through a window while indoors? How old is your little guy and how long have you had him?

BrinnANDGupta already linked you the threads that I would refer you to.

No disrespect to anyone, especially ripper7777777, but I strongly disagree with Dave's info on sulcatas for babies. (Dave Friend is the owner of the Ojai Sulcata Project) I know Dave personally and have had several conversations with him on this. Some history: Dave's an old school guy. He's also a good guy and loves tortoises to no end. He wants the best for all sulcatas, as do I, and we just disagree about what is "best". For many years the old school methods failed me and everyone else. Through lots of time, study, observation and experimentation, I have found new methods that don't fail and result in "natural" looking, healthy tortoises. Dave seems to have found my new info and set his site up specifically questioning and attempting to debunk each point. He and I have much more to discuss and have never finished our conversation, but so far we disagree on many points. I respect and admire this man, so don't get me wrong, but I did not see any hatchlings at his place on a recent visit, and I believe most of his info is great for older, bigger sulcatas, but not for tiny babies. Just remember that everyone seems to have an opinion on all this, but when I make a decision on whose opinion to listen to, I want to see results. I have not seen Dave's results, but I am working on a collaboration with him to try his methods at my place and post the results. Which reminds me, I've gotta get in touch with him...

Good luck with your baby.

Not to end up off topic, but no worries Tom, I don't follow it to the letter or recommend anyone does, I just think his site has some good info. But I do offer soaks/baths and I do use aquariums. I was told it had been updated and that he used to recommend dry but now 45% to 50% humidity I believe, but I never saw his old site. I will say some of his stuff did make me wonder if it was directed at you.

I think you should read everything you find about the care of the species and then make your decisions based on the evidence provided by the person who created the care sheet that best suits you and your setup.




Sorry not trying to derail the thread, just passing the time until we get a Vet update.

I agree with you, I also use soaks and aquariums.

I disagree with soaking for an hour. That is much too long. If a tortoise is going to drink he will do it in the first 10 minutes. Soaking for an hour is only good if you are using a baby food soak, but for an hour every day that is wrong. For one thing it forces the feces out too soon so the food does not get metabolized. I too apologize for derailing the thread...

I thought I sent a general reply out????
Tank does not have MBD. The bet said I need to improve the heat/uv
Situation in the habitat. Which I have donee with the help of my niece.
He said to keep soaking him for 15 min. Making sure to keep the water
Around 90degrees.
I will try to get some pictures posted, but I have problems doing that kind of thing.
Thanks again for all the help and suggestions.

 

[BrinnANDTorts]

Oooo so the vet is saying that he is just really inactive because he is too cold, thats good because thats a super easy fix
What about the fact that he is having trouble walking ?

 

[dragonmomma]

Oooo so the vet is saying that he is just really inactive because he is too cold, thats good because thats a super easy fix
What about the fact that he is having trouble walking ?

He said that it is all part of the problem of being too cold. He didn't eat and did not drink so he did get dehydrated and has not
been eating.
When looking back, even though he had been eating, his appetite had diminished. So, I am lucky I finally caught this and I know I have to really keep an eye on every aspect.

 

[SulcataSquirt]

Hi, i am glad your tort doesnt have MBD! I would look in to Mazuri tortoise diet for your sulcata, you said he was pickey and that could help him get going, try feeding your tort Butter lettuce(boston bibb), bok choy, endive, escarole, dandilion greens, those are some of my sullys favorties when he gets to being picky, also loves cactus if you can find it. ONE more thing that may help you greatly, Get a temp gun so you can shoot your torts enclosure temps and keep them adjusted throught out the year, Also you can use it to get a quick temp reading of your tort so you can get use to what temps he is at to help you figure out whats going on, Just some of the things i do.. Good luck with everything these little guys will keep you on your toes for a while, but they sure are worth it!!