SUDAN SULCATAS: HEY TOM! CHECK OUT THE SWIMMING SUDANS!

[DeanS]

I like both the smallest ones color more.

Dean, it might be due to the water or camera angle, but don't you think pic no 1 and 2, especially no 1 is slightly pyramided?

I also see some pyramiding starting.

Good eye...both of you! This is one of the great enigmas! All of mine and the other four of Tom's are perfectly smooth! The two I got from him are slightly pyramided. But, as I now employ the CLOSED CHAMBERS method...save for the few hours they spend outdoors running the yard, eating and soaking (for an hour or so)...I hope to curb that! STAY TUNED!

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Sulcatas can swim?????THE HECK??????? thats news to me, i wonder if leopards can swim?

Leopards are good swimmers, even as adults. One more than one occasion when some areas had been flooded for one reason or another people report seeing leopards bobby around until they get a footing and walk out of the water.

Aldabras and Galops have been found at sea, further than where visible land can be seen, and are OK, to an extent, they probably dehydrate before finding fresh water. To breath they just periscope their neck and head up. I further would think they could do this for a long time as long as the water surface was calm.

It's one of the ideas on how those guys got to their island homes in the first place.

Will

 

[DesertGrandma]

Well tomorrow my leopards will be trying to swim, haha. They love the water so why not??

 

[Weda737]

Awwww, I want a Sudan sully, Oh well, I love my baby and I'll just spoil him. On the topic of swimming though, I fill my bathtub up for him sometimes and the slant in it lets him soak or swim if he so chooses, and he does both, but usually settles down and splays out.

 

[Yellow Turtle]

Good eye...both of you! This is one of the great enigmas! All of mine and the other four of Tom's are perfectly smooth! The two I got from him are slightly pyramided. But, as I now employ the CLOSED CHAMBERS method...save for the few hours they spend outdoors running the yard, eating and soaking (for an hour or so)...I hope to curb that! STAY TUNED!

I'm sure you can correct it, but my question is why that happens? Since I remember Tom put his sudanese hatchlings in closed chamber as well, or I'm wrong?

 

[Tom]

Good eye...both of you! This is one of the great enigmas! All of mine and the other four of Tom's are perfectly smooth! The two I got from him are slightly pyramided. But, as I now employ the CLOSED CHAMBERS method...save for the few hours they spend outdoors running the yard, eating and soaking (for an hour or so)...I hope to curb that! STAY TUNED!

I'm sure you can correct it, but my question is why that happens? Since I remember Tom put his sudanese hatchlings in closed chamber as well, or I'm wrong?

This is a can of worms that I tried not to open. Unfortunately another member opened it for me, tried to make it look like I was throwing someone under the proverbial bus, in an attempt to throw ME under the proverbial bus.

Here are the facts: Dean and I got 20 hatchlings that were "7-10" days old according to the breeder. Looking at their bellies and the state of their umbilical scars verified this to be accurate by my estimation.

All seemed perfect initially, but soon some started to quickly outpace the others, growth wise. Within a few months it was clear there was a problem. About a third were doing perfect, a third were mediocre and a third were not doing well at all.

I necropsied two of the ones that were doing poorly in an effort to discover the problem, explain the inconsistency, and help the remaining live ones. Necropsy revealed that the entire intestinal tract was lined with a "gray sandy sludge". Quote from my vet who opened them up. These babies had never been on sand. Knowing that sulcatas eat their incubation media as soon as they even pip in some cases, I incorrectly assumed the sludge was broken down vermiculite. The breeder who was dragged into the fray by the other forum member corrected me saying that he does not use vermiculite. He uses perlite and he leaves the babies in the incubator for about a week while they absorb their yolk sac. In my experience sulcata babies eat everything around them while they are absorbing their yolk sac, which is why I start mine on damp paper towels in a brooder box with greens and their egg shells to nibble on. So I was wrong about it being vermiculite. It was obviously perlite which actually made even more sense.

I cannot explain why a good diet and hydration did not push out the perlite. I cannot explain why some thrived and are doing excellent to this day, while others have done poorly.

The ones that were and still are thriving are all 500-600 grams now, and their shells are the best I have ever seen. These ones are only around 200 grams, growing slowly and slightly pyramiding. They have all been in the same 4x8' enclosure, with the same routine, same diet, same everything. This is just one example of why I say slow growth is not the answer to pyramiding and fast(er) growth is not a cause of pyramiding.

Initially this enclosure was divided with a board into two 4x8' enclosures. I started my own hatchlings on one side, and these Sudans on the other. 100% of my hatchlings thrived in the same way the best ones of the Sudan group have, and are still thriving today. I still have three of MY hatchlings and several others have been sold to people I keep in touch with and other forum members who report on their status from time to time. All of my own hatchlings that I started with brooder boxes initially and then into the other half of the same enclosure the Sudans were in, are comparable in size and smoothness to the best of the Sudan group. In fact the best Sudans are slightly bigger and smoother than the best of my own hatchlings. It was alluded to that the problem must somehow be my husbandry. I counter that this could not be the case for two reasons: 1. Dean offered different husbandry, but saw the exact same ratio of thrivers and non-thrivers. 2. 100% of my own hatchlings (several dozen over the course of the season) thrived and grew perfectly with the exact same husbandry, diet and conditions that the Sudans were in, except for their first week or two, where mine were in brooder boxes and not eating their incubation media.

My purpose in this post is to explain and share what I have learned thus far, and hopefully learn more. Questions and criticisms are welcome.

 

[Thalatte]

Is sudan a subspecies? How many subspecies of sulcatas are there? And what's the difference?

 

[Tom]

There is only one recognized species of sulcata and no subspecies. People who know the species well from various parts of its range comment that there are at least three geographically distinct "types". The one we are discussing here come from the country of Sudan in Africa. They are characterized by a very large size in adult males and a generally more rounded higher domed shell than the other types of sulcatas from other parts of the range.

 

[Thalatte]

Oh. Ok thanks.

 

[DeanS]

Good eye...both of you! This is one of the great enigmas! All of mine and the other four of Tom's are perfectly smooth! The two I got from him are slightly pyramided. But, as I now employ the CLOSED CHAMBERS method...save for the few hours they spend outdoors running the yard, eating and soaking (for an hour or so)...I hope to curb that! STAY TUNED!

I'm sure you can correct it, but my question is why that happens? Since I remember Tom put his sudanese hatchlings in closed chamber as well, or I'm wrong?

I see it this way. Because I live in the extremely arid high desert, my tortoises would be spending 24/7 in CLOSED CHAMBERS until they were (at least) three years old...only out long enough to graze a little. Before I found this forum, I allowed my babies to run my yard for an hour or so before placing them in a kiddie pool with about 1.5" of water. Furthermore, I left the pool half in the sun, half in the shade. All the hatchlings I received had some degree of pyramiding. Obviously, the eight hours plus in this artificial environment helped considerably. But, I don't necessarily consider it the right way...it just worked for me...because of my environment. To back this up, look at the picture at the top right of page 43 in THE CRYING TORTOISE. They spent the night in screen top terrariums, with only a CHE. The room they were kept in at night was constantly around 80-85F with 50-75% RH. After I joined this Forum, I found Tom...and we clicked from the start. The first time I saw his set-up, I nearly flipped. But, it wasn't until he acquired his South African leopards that I truly saw the advances in tortoise husbandry. His closed chamber approach was truly without equal. Since then, there have been copycats all over the place, but he still has no peer! Then, he built his habitat for the Sudans...UN-FU**ING-BELIEVABLE! And, YES! All of his larger Sudans are FLAWLESS! Just as 4 of my 5 are flawless! Ironically, it's the middle three that show any signs of pyramiding...the two I acquired from Tom and the largest of mine are all in the 200-250 gram range...i.e. the first three pictures in this thread. The breeder has 100 breeding animals...or is it 100 breeding groups...so there could be a slight variation from one genetic strain to the next. But, those looking to attack Tom (you know who you are) for taking this hobby to the next level are so off base, you don't know!

For the record, this was supposed to be a fun thread...free of controversy (we have enough of those already). However, since it's taken this left turn, don't be discouraged from continuing down this path. This is how we ALL learn. Critiques (and compliments) welcome! Just be fair! Don't attack with unfounded theories! If you have a claim that's inconsistent with what's already been discussed...then be prepared to back it up...or remain silent!

 

[RV's mom]

sweet pics Dean

 

[sibi]

So Tom, is it true that sullies swim, no matter how big they are? Does Daisy still swim?

 

[theelectraco]

So Tom, is it true that sullies swim, no matter how big they are? Does Daisy still swim?

Be careful, you may be joining us at the kiddie table

 

[Tom]

So Tom, is it true that sullies swim, no matter how big they are? Does Daisy still swim?

Daisy was about 8" if I remember correctly the last time I tried. She's now around 16" and I just have not gotten around to trying it again. Every time there is a warm sunny day I either forget or I'm busy with other things. Don't worry. The theory WILL be tested and results posted.

 

[Tony the tank]

Well.. Back to the original post..

My leopards could swim even at 8" they did very well... But I doubt my adult sulcatas will float...I worry because every now and then one wanders into the pool house and sets off the alarm... I have watched them in person and on the camera go to the edge look in and quickly back away....anyone have any experience with adult sulcatas and swimming??

 

[Mjdeisher]

The great thing about good science, is that even if you come to the incorrect conclusion is that it will steer you in the direction of the right answer. While doing research for work or fun, you might believe the answer is one thing and then discover it's something completely different. If Tom was being ignorant he would of said the breeder lied, but Tom accepted that his original hypothesis was wrong and that it was a different substrate. End of story. From where I'm standing, sounds like good science to me.


Anyways... I was under the impression tortoises couldn't swim. But makes sense I guess, they aren't a solid rock under their shells. There has to be some sort of equilibrium there. Lol.

 

[cemmons12]

The great thing about good science, is that even if you come to the incorrect conclusion is that it will steer you in the direction of the right answer. While doing research for work or fun, you might believe the answer is one thing and then discover it's something completely different. If Tom was being ignorant he would of said the breeder lied, but Tom accepted that his original hypothesis was wrong and that it was a different substrate. End of story. From where I'm standing, sounds like good science to me.


Anyways... I was under the impression tortoises couldn't swim. But makes sense I guess, they aren't a solid rock under their shells. There has to be some sort of equilibrium there. Lol.

I would love to see if Cooper can swim, but I am toooo big of a chicken! Lol! And as much as he is not a fan of his baths, that may make him hate them even more!

 

[RedfootsRule]

I believe it prevents anyone from being incorrect in the fact that the breeder didn't use vermiculite...How would it be vermiculite if the torts never came into contact with it? After, perlite is an "amorphous volcanic glass" so I can see how it would leave "gray, sandy sludge". Sorry, its pretty known me and Tom often disagree, but even I can see there is no reason to argue this...
Either way, they are pretty sulcatas, which I'm pretty sure was the POINT of this thread....

 

[sibi]

Well, I'm certainly satisfied with Tom's answer. Daisy probably can still swim even though it has been awhile. I don't know where I read it here, but I was under the impression that sullies can't swim once they become too heavy. I remember when my sullies were a few months old I put them in a tub to see if they could swim. I was amazed to see they did, although I saw my babies eyes bug out. I just figured they were stressed. I hadn't done it again, but this summer, I'm going to try it again. So, naturally, when I saw Dean's sultans, a couple of pics looked like they may have been stressed. But, in retrospect, if members don't see what I did, then I may be wrong. Anyway, I can't wait to see Daisy swim! Btw, Tom, I only have nice things to say about you. So, I'm not sure if there's a history that goes back with the other members who were trying to discredit you, but it's apparent that you have tons of friends here ready to take battle for you. Thanks for getting back to me on this. I really wanted to know.

 

[N2TORTS]

Dean~O .... Luv the shots! ......perfect for a new " Water Wing" infomercial ~