SUDAN SULCATAS: HEY TOM! CHECK OUT THE SWIMMING SUDANS!

[sibi]

Oops...i called them sultans (they are princes to me, I guess that's what I was thinking, haha). I meant "SUDANS."

Well, I'm certainly satisfied with Tom's answer. Daisy probably can still swim even though it has been awhile. I don't know where I read it here, but I was under the impression that sullies can't swim once they become too heavy. I remember when my sullies were a few months old I put them in a tub to see if they could swim. I was amazed to see they did, although I saw my babies eyes bug out. I just figured they were stressed. I hadn't done it again, but this summer, I'm going to try it again. So, naturally, when I saw Dean's sudans, a couple of pics looked like they may have been stressed. But, in retrospect, if members don't see what I did, then I may be wrong. Anyway, I can't wait to see Daisy swim! Btw, Tom, I only have nice things to say about you. So, I'm not sure if there's a history that goes back with the other members who were trying to discredit you, but it's apparent that you have tons of friends here ready to take battle for you. Thanks for getting back to me on this. I really wanted to know.

 

[jaizei]

I was curious about the shiny flecks! If the sludge is perlite, where are the flecks from!?!? If the breeder had never spoken up, you would have used the above as proof positive that it was vermiculite! After he said perlite, you shifted to that without missing a beat! I see the flaws in this type of thinking!

I've already said I was wrong half a dozen times. It's obvious I was wrong. Do you just enjoy hearing it? That horse is dead man. Stop beating it. I made an incorrect assumption based on what most breeders commonly use. He didn't use vermiculite. My bad. The fact that he uses perlite actually made MORE sense. I don't see any problem with admitting I made an incorrect assumption and moving on with the obvious correct answer. I don't have any idea what the vet saw that was shiny. I said before that she didn't know what it was either. She described it to me. I asked if it could be vermiculite since that's what most people use and she said yes, it could be. Turns out my suggestion was wrong. Couldn't be vermiculite since he uses perlite. Perlite actually fits the description better... Why are we still talking about this? I'm done. Whatever your thoughts on the matter, the necropsied babies had a gray sandy sludge lining their intestine, and some thrived, while others did not. Whatever the sludge is composed of, I found the problem, which is a huge step forward.

You can stop playing victim at anytime. It is not about you being wrong but about how you got there. You jumped to one conclusion and then leapt to another. Now the composition of the sludge doesn't matter? I thought that was the whole point. Hatchlings ingesting incubation medium. Which in this case was perlite. Which isn't really shiny. Which is one of the attributes the vet gave in describing something in the sludge.

 

[Baoh]

Silica, the primary component of perlite, is transparent. Not metallic in appearance. Aluminum oxide, the secondary component, is white. Not metallic in appearance. Sodium oxide, the tertiary component, becomes sodium hydroxide in solution if liberated in water, so would present no solid (and would not be metallic in appearance in that environment) to even visually observe. Potassium oxide, the quaternary component, will go a similar route as sodium oxide in that it will become potassium hydroxide if liberated in water, so would present no solid (and would not be metallic in appearance in that environment) to even visually observe. The other three common components (oxides of iron, magnesium, and calcium), which are present in only small relative quantities, are also not metallic in appearance. Digestive processes are not really going to chemically break perlite down anyway. Supposing you even managed (a chemically unlikely event) to dissolve some of the material in an acidic aqueous (gastric) environment at the internal temperature of a live tortoise, though, the resulting substances, as with the list above, would not be metallic in appearance.

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Nice tortoises, though. I am a fan of Brad's Sudanese animals.

 

[Yellow Turtle]

This is a can of worms that I tried not to open. Unfortunately another member opened it for me, tried to make it look like I was throwing someone under the proverbial bus, in an attempt to throw ME under the proverbial bus.

Aside of the facts and finding that are mentioned after those statements above, this question by me is not in any attempt to discredit anyone of his husbandry. I like closed chamber and have passed the information to several local people that I have a chat here. I hope to see it's done here in my country. Since I can't commit to provide all the closed chamber myself for now, if not I will for certain try it myself.

I've learnt a lot from this forum and intend to continue doing all the learning. Those pyramiding I saw, really makes me a bit surprised, and wants to know what has been happening to the torts. All this time I've seen very smooth shells from Tom, Deans and also Zamric using this method.

So those gray sandy sludge causing stunted growth and pyramiding even all those torts have been eating quite the same portion? How does it do, does it just simply block nutrition absorption of the food?

 

[Yellow Turtle]

For the record, this was supposed to be a fun thread...free of controversy (we have enough of those already). However, since it's taken this left turn, don't be discouraged from continuing down this path. This is how we ALL learn. Critiques (and compliments) welcome! Just be fair! Don't attack with unfounded theories! If you have a claim that's inconsistent with what's already been discussed...then be prepared to back it up...or remain silent!

Dean, this is fun thread and pictures. I tested all my torts for swimming sometime ago. And all of my torts can swim pretty well.

I don't think there is anymore need for back up theories and debates for pyramiding. If you don't mind, please update those 2 pyramided torts you've got, I'm interested to know their progress.

 

[Tom]

Silica, the primary component of perlite, is transparent. Not metallic in appearance. Aluminum oxide, the secondary component, is white. Not metallic in appearance. Sodium oxide, the tertiary component, becomes sodium hydroxide in solution if liberated in water, so would present no solid (and would not be metallic in appearance in that environment) to even visually observe. Potassium oxide, the quaternary component, will go a similar route as sodium oxide in that it will become potassium hydroxide if liberated in water, so would present no solid (and would not be metallic in appearance in that environment) to even visually observe. The other three common components (oxides of iron, magnesium, and calcium), which are present in only small relative quantities, are also not metallic in appearance. Digestive processes are not really going to chemically break perlite down anyway. Supposing you even managed (a chemically unlikely event) to dissolve some of the material in an acidic aqueous (gastric) environment at the internal temperature of a live tortoise, though, the resulting substances, as with the list above, would not be metallic in appearance.

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Nice tortoises, though. I am a fan of Brad's Sudanese animals.

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When I say broken down I'm mean it in a physical sense, not a chemical one. If you take some perlite, squish it back and forth between your thumb and fingers, it "breaks down" into somewhat of a sandy powder. Add water, all sorts of different foods, and let it site for a few weeks in an intestinal tract and Ill make a guess that you'll end up with a gray sandy sludge.

Why are we hung up on the shiny bits? Maybe it was just light reflecting of the wetness or reflecting off of some mucus. Maybe she was just agreeing with my suggestion, since it didn't seem like it could be anything else at the time. Who knows? Again, if it wasn't perlite orchard grass or orchid bark, then what was it? Fresh grass, cactus pads, weeds, spring mix, and Mazuri aren't going to create a "gray sandy sludge".

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This is a can of worms that I tried not to open. Unfortunately another member opened it for me, tried to make it look like I was throwing someone under the proverbial bus, in an attempt to throw ME under the proverbial bus.

Aside of the facts and finding that are mentioned after those statements above, this question by me is not in any attempt to discredit anyone of his husbandry. I like closed chamber and have passed the information to several local people that I have a chat here. I hope to see it's done here in my country. Since I can't commit to provide all the closed chamber myself for now, if not I will for certain try it myself.

I've learnt a lot from this forum and intend to continue doing all the learning. Those pyramiding I saw, really makes me a bit surprised, and wants to know what has been happening to the torts. All this time I've seen very smooth shells from Tom, Deans and also Zamric using this method.

So those gray sandy sludge causing stunted growth and pyramiding even all those torts have been eating quite the same portion? How does it do, does it just simply block nutrition absorption of the food?

NOT referring to you yellow turtle. This happened a long time ago.

 

[sibi]

Hey Dean, the bet is on! Tom said that he hasn't put Daisy to swim in a while, but that he plans to soon. So, what say you? Will Daisy be able to swim? Btw, the above thing is very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

 

[DeanS]

Dean, this is fun thread and pictures. I tested all my torts for swimming sometime ago. And all of my torts can swim pretty well.

I don't think there is anymore need for back up theories and debates for pyramiding. If you don't mind, please update those 2 pyramided torts you've got, I'm interested to know their progress.

The first three pics are the ONLY Sudans that are pyramided. And, let me say, it is barely noticeable. The fact that they are in the water creates an illusion, making it look more advanced than it actually is...

What it really is is more like lumps...kind of like comparing a concrete driveway with an asphalt one...weird analogy, but that's the best I can come up with right now!

My three-year-olds, Climber and Jamie, look better than when I received them. At a month, they already had a slight degree of pyramiding, and even the breeder was impressed that they grew to this point with no further pyramiding! Here's a shot of them coming in for the night...you get a pretty good idea of their development. Only that initial 'baby scute' stands out at all...but as they grow into adults, I see that disappearing altogether!

Climber is bringing up the rear and is 17" and weighs 26 lbs. His sister, Jamie, is 10" and weighs 11 lbs.

 

[sibi]

That's pretty amazing. I see what you mean about the lumps. Personally, I didn't see any pyramiding on the Sudan's. How could I? Did you ever see what a straight stick looks like in a glass of water? They look just beautiful.

 

[mctlong]

this is a fun thread with pictures of "swimming" sullys. Which, by the way Dean, are freakin' adorable!!!

 

[Tony the tank]

Ok.. Let's try this again.. Anyone ever see a lg Sulcata swimming?? ..or better yet any lg tortoise swimming...pics or basis of knowledge??

Thank you

 

[cemmons12]

Hey Dean, how old are Climber and Jamie now? Thanks!

 

[Neal]

I like this pictograph.

 

[Shannon and Jason]

Dean your torts look great if I look really hard I can see slight lumps(the water pics are very deceiving to the eye) but nothing really noticeable........ before long won't even know it was ever there.

I also want to say thanks to you guys for taking that left turn and educating the rest of us with the knowledge you all have gained from experience.

 

[DeanS]

Ok.. Let's try this again.. Anyone ever see a lg Sulcata swimming?? ..or better yet any lg tortoise swimming...pics or basis of knowledge??

Thank you

I saw a large yellow foot swimming on a NGW documentary...that was impressive!

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Hey Dean, how old are Climber and Jamie now? Thanks!

Not quite 3.5 years! They didn't start growing until they were about 2 years...then Climber exploded! Jamie's grown a little slower but she's holding her own now!

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Dean your torts look great if I look really hard I can see slight lumps(the water pics are very deceiving to the eye) but nothing really noticeable........ before long won't even know it was ever there.

I also want to say thanks to you guys for taking that left turn and educating the rest of us with the knowledge you all have gained from experience.

Thanks Shannon! You are right! There is barely anything going on there...and if I had waited to post this thread 6 months or so, nobody would've seen anything!

Second, all credit goes to Tom here! He and I were traversing the same path on how to raise tortoises. I was doing it wet from the start...and he had the humidity thing down to a fine art! Everything he's discovered should be the norm! All the haters should spend a day with him! Attitudes would definitely change at that point!

 

[Kerryann]

They are super cute

 

[Yvonne G]

But!!!! This is still no reason to have tortoises in a back yard that has an unfenced in-the-ground-swimming pool. Tortoises can't swim forever, and just like a dog that falls in the pool, will eventually tire and drown.

 

[DeanS]

Hey Dean, the bet is on! Tom said that he hasn't put Daisy to swim in a while, but that he plans to soon. So, what say you? Will Daisy be able to swim? Btw, the above thing is very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Having seen what a big girl Daisy is now? I say no chance! I know Tom has an ear-to-ear grin right now! If she (surface) swims...or even floats...Tom has free manual labor for a day! And seeing the early footprints of upcoming projects...we're talking huge projects!

 

[cemmons12]

Ok.. Let's try this again.. Anyone ever see a lg Sulcata swimming?? ..or better yet any lg tortoise swimming...pics or basis of knowledge??

Thank you

I saw a large yellow foot swimming on a NGW documentary...that was impressive!

---

Hey Dean, how old are Climber and Jamie now? Thanks!

Not quite 3.5 years! They didn't start growing until they were about 2 years...then Climber exploded! Jamie's grown a little slower but she's holding her own now!

---

[qu
ote='Shannon and Jason' pid='614671' dateline='1360185319']
Dean your torts look great if I look really hard I can see slight lumps(the water pics are very deceiving to the eye) but nothing really noticeable........ before long won't even know it was ever there.

I also want to say thanks to you guys for taking that left turn and educating the rest of us with the knowledge you all have gained from experience.

---

---

Thanks Shannon! You are right! There is barely anything going on there...and if I had waited to post this thread 6 months or so, nobody would've seen anything!

Second, all credit goes to Tom here! He and I were traversing the same path on how to raise tortoises. I was doing it wet from the start...and he had the humidity thing down to a fine art! Everything he's discovered should be the norm! All the haters should spend a day with him! Attitudes would definitely change at that point!


WOW! I knew they were older then Cooper but I didnt think they were that much older. I think they look fantastic! Time sure has flown by since I joined the forum!



[/quote]

 

[Tom]

Ok.. Let's try this again.. Anyone ever see a lg Sulcata swimming?? ..or better yet any lg tortoise swimming...pics or basis of knowledge??

Thank you

Sorry Hector. Didn't mean to ignore you the first time. I have not seen it for sure. A while back ATC posted pics of his adults hanging out in a pond. I could not tell from the picture if they were floating or touching bottom. Send him a PM and let us know.

We have more rain and a cold spell coming in the next few days, but I'll get my big ones in some deep water as soon as its a little warmer and we'll have a more definite answer then.