Sully Advice Please

[aco43]

We have had Daisy and Duke since November 2011 when they were both 17 weeks old.

They settled into their new home very well and were very lively and had great appetites. However over the last couple of weeks they seem to have slowed down considerably and are eating less and sleeping more.

Added to that Daisy, who was the best eater started to act strangely about 10 days ago, opening her mouth out wide, rubbing her eyes and squealing loudly.

We noticed her eyes looked inflamed and assumed this was the problem. First thing we did was turn the mvb off for a day and just keep the temps up with a che. We then got some eye ointment and applied this daily for a week.

The good news is that the squealing has stopped and she seems a bit livelier but she does seem to be struggling with her eating?

Upon further investigation we have noticed what looks like a scaly growth under her chin? See pic.

Duke doesn't appear to have this?

A bit of back ground to assist with any guidance given. We keep them in an open table with MVB bulb on for approx 12-14 hours during the day and a CHE at night.

Substrate is a product called Eco Earth which is basically recycled coconut fibre.

Diet consists mainly of dandelion leaves (when we can find them) romain lettuce, herbivore food and grated carrot or squash now and again.

They have access to water at all times and we soak them daily.

We were wondering if the slowing down was due to the weather here at the moment, barely over freezing some days and not very light, however temps in their table are always about 100 degrees during the day and about 75-80 degrees at night.

Not sure what else we can do or indeed if their current behaviour is totally normal? Biggest concern is over Daisy as we are not sure if she is struggling with a mouth ulcer?

Any help appreciated

Pic above showing scaly skin under chin?

Daisy and Duke share lunch!

 

[Laura]

what kind of calcium do they get? Any sunlight?
Try Spring Mix dark green, salad mix as well..
I dont see a problem with the chin.
if they are cold they slow down, if the lights arent on long enough during the day they may slow down.

 

[aco43]

Thanks Laura, we sprinkle their food with calcium powder a couple of times a week and there is a cuttle bone in the table. Unfortunately it is very difficult to give them any natural sunlight at the moment as it is too cold to take them outside. They have a basking stone and get the MVB for 12-14 hours a day.

 

[ascott]

I also don't see a weird growth, apologies. I am a little concerned if you saying the day temps are 100°...does that mean the entire enclosure or do you mean their basking spot?

 

[aco43]

Hi Angela,

100-110 degrees basking spot. Drops to about 70 degrees elsewhere in the enclosure.

Looks like we night be worrying unnecessarily regarding the skin issue. Suppose it's like being a new parent for the first time all over again!

 

[tortuga_please]

I don't see anything out of the ordinary, try cycling in different foods; maybe they just want something else.

 

[Tom]

Interesting...

On the surface, this sounds like a temp thing, but your temps sound okay. Try warming things up a bit to see if it helps. Your daytime low of 70 on the cool side seems too low to me, but it's not THAT far off. Can you put the CHE on a thermostat, set it for 80, and just let it run? And leave your light on its timer?

Also your diet does not sound great. Carrots, squash and romaine should only be fed once in a while, not as a staple. You need more variety, more weeds and more fiber. They really need some grass. Do you have Bermuda hay for horses over there? That, or something similar, will work. Get a pile of rocket salad and wet it. Chop up the grass hay over it with scissors and spray it all with water while mixing. Wait five minutes for the grass to rehydrate and serve. Spineless opuntia would be good too.

As a side note, not related to your original question, it is really difficult to maintain good conditions in an open topped enclosure. All the beneficial heat and humidity simply rise up and out into the room. The notches around the scutes of your babies are the start of pyramiding and if you continue this way, it will get worse.

Another possible problem is that they are living as a pair, and really shouldn't. Is one or the other faring better? You mainly talked about Daisy. She may be the lower one on the totem pole, and therefore more stressed. The stress could lead to decreased immune function and decreased appetite.

Anyhow, there are a few possibilities. Anything striking you?

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Interesting...

On the surface, this sounds like a temp thing, but your temps sound okay. Try warming things up a bit to see if it helps. Your daytime low of 70 on the cool side seems too low to me, but it's not THAT far off. Can you put the CHE on a thermostat, set it for 80, and just let it run? And leave your light on its timer?

Also your diet does not sound great. Carrots, squash and romaine should only be fed once in a while, not as a staple. You need more variety, more weeds and more fiber. They really need some grass. Do you have Bermuda hay for horses over there? That, or something similar, will work. Get a pile of rocket salad and wet it. Chop up the grass hay over it with scissors and spray it all with water while mixing. Wait five minutes for the grass to rehydrate and serve. Spineless opuntia would be good too.

As a side note, not related to your original question, it is really difficult to maintain good conditions in an open topped enclosure. All the beneficial heat and humidity simply rise up and out into the room. The notches around the scutes of your babies are the start of pyramiding and if you continue this way, it will get worse.

Another possible problem is that they are living as a pair, and really shouldn't. Is one or the other faring better? You mainly talked about Daisy. She may be the lower one on the totem pole, and therefore more stressed. The stress could lead to decreased immune function and decreased appetite.

Anyhow, there are a few possibilities. Anything striking you?

Good stuff!

 

[aco43]

Thanks for the responses guys, much appreciated.

Tom, thanks for your comments, having read some of your other posts we will definitely give your recommendations some consideration.

With regards to the enclosure this has been a difficult topic for us. When we first decided to get the torts we did some considerable research on this, including from this site and ultimately went with the advice given to us from the breeder we got them from. Basically she suggested that a table was better than a viv as they have the opportunity to find a cooler spot if they need it etc etc. Fully understand your argument as well so not quite sure which way to go on this now!

With regards to living as a pair I think you have a valid point, however my mother in law kept a pair of torts for over 30 years with no obvious issues and is doing so again with two new torts. Our two came from the same clutch and if anything I would say they would be lost without each other. Daisy was actually the best eater out of the two of them and has always been slightly bigger and heavier and we have seen no obvious signs of bullying.

I think they have slowed down due to the temps as we raised the hight of the MVB due to the fact that we thought it was affecting their eyes. It is since then that they have slowed down, this also coincided with a drop in temps externally as we had our first real snow fall this year at the same time.

We are in the process of fitting an additional CHE to the inside of the enclosure (away from harms way) controlled by a stat at 80 degrees as you suggested.

I had a good look at Daisy this morning during a soak and she does seem a bit brighter now so hopefully back on the mend!

Richard.

 

[Tom]

Just want to add a couple of points for consideration.

1. Sometimes pairs do work out. It happens occasionally. More often though, in my experience, it causes problems. I'm going to guess that your mother in law did not do this with sulcatas, right? It is different for different species. Sulcatas are one of the ones that are least likely to thrive this way. Again, its not impossible, its just usually not ideal.

2. In a closed chamber or mostly covered chamber, they still have the exact same basking spot and cooler end. They can still choose to move to a cooler spot at anytime. Its just that twmps and humidity stay a lot more stable and it takes a lot less electricity to keep temps where you want them. Outside of this site very few people recommend keeping them this way. Also outside of this site, very few people raise a smooth healthy hydrated sulcata. Ask you breeder for pics of smooth babies that are a few months to a couple of years old, raised with their methods. I quick look around this site will show 100's of pics of smooth ones raised my way. Can the breeder show you evidence that open topped tables work for them? Nearly everybody did it the way your breeder is recommending for decades. We now know that it doesn't work, and a small number of us (relatively small number compared to the whole world of tortoise keepers) have figured out what DOES work.

Either way, I wish you the best and hope for a speedy recovery for your babies.

 

[aco43]

Thanks Tom, you are right, she didn't have Sulcata's. I would be daft not to consider your comments regarding housing and pairs considering your experience. Have taken it all on board

 

[TaraDodrill]

My Sullies seem pretty content together, for now. But I would always defer to Tom and the other patient and kind forum experts for advice. They were housed in a nice yet over-crowded enclosed tort table before I regimes them, so maybe they are just used to each other. There were three redfoots and two yellowfoots in the enclosure as well.
Babette and Scarlet (name change to Rhett is very likey in the near future) are now in an enclosure a little more than 4 feet in diameter with two basking spots and two hides, so they have plenty of space for destressing seclusion. Yesterday Babette buried herself in a hole and Scarlet searched frantically for her for at least five minutes. She kept walking right past her and didn't even know it. Even though they each have their own hides and basking areas, 90% of the time they choose to hang out together.
That could easily change in the future though. Fortunately I have plenty of space for separate enclosures. The seeds I planted in the enclosure are growing it made me so happy to grow healthy food for them.
Scarlet us really still too young to tell sex but her tail is a lot longer and thinner than the older and larger Babette's and he/she always jeeps it tucked in sideways. Anal scutes tend too look more like a male. Hard to tell. Healthy and happy is my only concern. We all love them so much and my teenager is becoming quite the tort expert caregiver, that is reassuring too.

 

[wellington]

DITTO DITTO READ THREADS AT BOTTOM OF MY POST. I also see pyramiding.

Interesting...

On the surface, this sounds like a temp thing, but your temps sound okay. Try warming things up a bit to see if it helps. Your daytime low of 70 on the cool side seems too low to me, but it's not THAT far off. Can you put the CHE on a thermostat, set it for 80, and just let it run? And leave your light on its timer?

Also your diet does not sound great. Carrots, squash and romaine should only be fed once in a while, not as a staple. You need more variety, more weeds and more fiber. They really need some grass. Do you have Bermuda hay for horses over there? That, or something similar, will work. Get a pile of rocket salad and wet it. Chop up the grass hay over it with scissors and spray it all with water while mixing. Wait five minutes for the grass to rehydrate and serve. Spineless opuntia would be good too.

As a side note, not related to your original question, it is really difficult to maintain good conditions in an open topped enclosure. All the beneficial heat and humidity simply rise up and out into the room. The notches around the scutes of your babies are the start of pyramiding and if you continue this way, it will get worse.

Another possible problem is that they are living as a pair, and really shouldn't. Is one or the other faring better? You mainly talked about Daisy. She may be the lower one on the totem pole, and therefore more stressed. The stress could lead to decreased immune function and decreased appetite.

Anyhow, there are a few possibilities. Anything striking you?

Good stuff!