The End Of Pyramiding

[River14]

WOW, so the old " he grows to fast" theory is still around?

Im new to this whole subject, but my Star hatchlings now a year are not "pyramided", however many tortoises in the wild certainly are.

I have studied the growth and management of young horses and can say absolutely along with all studies and control groups that high protein diets too soon encouraging rapid growth lead to chronic joint problems in warm blood adults and three year olds. These are big animals but must be left to mature slowly.

The problem is grass contains a load of protein, add to this horse feed also high in protein leads to trouble. There is though a three tiered program to get the horse through all this in health. One is daily exercise or preferably unlimited excersise sun rain whatever this strengthens bones and joints and is absolutely vital, the other is to reduce protein or supplementary feed to just grass, hay and or silage. The last is absolutely no supplements unless the grazing is very much lacking in certain important elements. This will differ from area to area but is rarely a problem and if it is it will be well known amongst farmers etc.

Im slightly sceptical about the humidity aspect here. Ok tortoises are not horses, but in the wild hatchlings tortoises will go through humid and extremely dry periods in varying seasons as they grow with no ill affects.

Homopus signatus the smallest tortoise on earth will endure wet cold winters and bone dry summers with no humidity at all in the wild they are naturally pyramided but still require spraying to keep up the humidity level in the first three weeks of life. This isn't to prevent pyramiding but to make sure they are hydrated.

As far as I can work out tortoises are slaves to their environment, and this being extremely volatile will adapt , but most importantly at their own pace.

So if a Sulcata is pyramided or not might depend on many different things but essentially is not a problem for health unless incorrect artificial conditions are forced on it. This might mean rapid growth due to feeding but bone dry, or slow growth due to bad diet combined with overly humid conditions where it most probably simply will die if its lucky.

Im rather amazed that no one looks to the natural environment of these creatures for clues. Experiment all you want with humidity protein but until you know how it all come together in its natural environment and naturally variable conditions you will always be blind.

I suppose in fact there are no perfect conditions rather the variables that nature throws its way. They survive all this just swell, given natural sunshine just enough food and periodical months of extreme lean.

Tey are masters of their environment and not of ours. (im Irish of decent give me a break)

 

[reighneyday]

Just read through this entire thread. Wow! Tom if I ever make it to California, I am going to shake your hand and buy you a case of your favorite beer! HAHA! Purchased a female sulcata, which i named Venus, last month from a show in Southwest Pennsylvania. Total rookie, no experience whatsoever. Friend talked me into buying her on the spot. Did an hour's worth of research at the show before I pulled the trigger and bought her. Since then I have read for countless hours trying to get the husbandry, diet, lighting, etc correct. I really feel like a weight has been lifted off of my shoulders. Just from reading through this forum. I desperately wanted to get this 100% right.


The tiny container I carried her out in.

Obviously, the couple that I bought her from read your thread or have been around for 20 years and on the cutting edge, like yourself! She is smooth as can be!! I'm making the necessary changes to my setup the second I wake up tomorrow. Will post more pictures in the near future. And I'll ask the couple I bought her from about their experiences and post those as well.

Thanks again Tom and all those who have worked toward raising these reptiles properly!!

Reighney, proud papa of Venus

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi Reighney:

Welcome to the forum!!

Your little baby is much to young to be seeing any effects of poor-keeping. They don't start pyramiding until they start growing. You can tell by the dark lines between the scutes on the carapace, that your baby hasn't started growing yet. Also, just so you won't be disappointed down the line, she's much to young to tell the sex yet. I'd be willing to bet she turns out to be "he." (the majority of them are)

Glad to have you here. You seem like a very interested and caring tortoise keeper.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Just read through this entire thread. Wow! Tom if I ever make it to California, I am going to shake your hand and buy you a case of your favorite beer! HAHA! Purchased a female sulcata, which i named Venus, last month from a show in Southwest Pennsylvania. Total rookie, no experience whatsoever. Friend talked me into buying her on the spot. Did an hour's worth of research at the show before I pulled the trigger and bought her. Since then I have read for countless hours trying to get the husbandry, diet, lighting, etc correct. I really feel like a weight has been lifted off of my shoulders. Just from reading through this forum. I desperately wanted to get this 100% right.


The tiny container I carried her out in.

Obviously, the couple that I bought her from read your thread or have been around for 20 years and on the cutting edge, like yourself! She is smooth as can be!! I'm making the necessary changes to my setup the second I wake up tomorrow. Will post more pictures in the near future. And I'll ask the couple I bought her from about their experiences and post those as well.

Thanks again Tom and all those who have worked toward raising these reptiles properly!!

Reighney, proud papa of Venus

Welcome.

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome. Thanks for the support and good luck with your baby.



Hey, Yvonne. Don't wreck my free beer...

 

[PEEEETE]

Thank you for all your hard work, Tom. I'm going to call the lady I got Pépe from and tell her to read this thread as I have. I'm trying to follow your regiment exactly, I only wish that Pépe will be as beautiful as your 3 one day.

I was curious about the reaction to the mistings... My baby seems to run back to his hide, or to his basking spot, every time i mist him. Is this normal? Should I use warm water? Is is possibly just shocking him because it's a new thing to him, and it scares him? Thanks for your help, again.

Also, which town in So-Cal are you from? I got my hatchling in Hemet.

 

[Tom]

They get used to the spraying within a few days usually. My yearlings don't even react any more. Some of the babies run for the hills, but its good for them so I do it anyway. You can always pick them up and spray in your hand r put them in a shallow tub of water and lightly splash them before putting them back in their enclosure.

I know Hemet well. I'm up in Santa Clarita, just North of Los Angeles. Still L.A. County.

If your baby lady will give the "wet" method a try, she will never go back to the "dry" method again. The difference is amazing!

 

[drgnfly2265]

I know I'm a little late to thise thread but after reading this I have changed somethings to how I take care of Bowser.

The first was getting rid of the hay and getting cypress mulch (ty again for the help Tom ). The hay was horrible with humidity that I aleady had on the porch and molded like crazy.

Also I am now misting her once or twice daily. At first she was a little hesitant of what was going on but now she loves it! I mist her when she is inside in her area and she walks around in it and tries to eat the spray bottle (maybe getting a yellow one wasn't a great idea, it looks like one of her favorite food squash, lol). Plus I'll mist her area too to keep it humid. Then not to mention the huge water bowl that she has that she drinks out of a lot and lays in too. Right after I mist her I notice that she wants to eat during or right after the misting, it makes her hungry I guess?

After seeing how great your little torts looked I couldn't resist. They look amazing! Bowser seems to be a little more active since I have been doing this, and not to mention that it is a great bonding time

 

[Tom]

Its been a long time since my last update. Tuck and Trey are doing great. They've been living outside full time now for most of the summer. Trey puts himself away every night, but Tuck can't seem to figure it out...
They live here now:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Daisy-s-New-Enclosure#axzz1bODSMaJo

Tuck is 850 grams and Trey is 1026. They are fantastic torts and I look forward to watching them grow up.

 

[CtTortoiseMom]

They are perfect Tom!! I want them!!

 

[Tom]

Thank you Erin. I let one go a few months ago and I've regretted it ever since. I should have just kept all three. I don't think I'll ever part with these two. I hope my daughter continues to love tortoises into adulthood...

 

[Morty the Torty]

This is great! I'm going to start misting every day now

 

[Tom]

Richard Fife is the one who convinced me that misting was the way to go with sulcatas and leopards. Terry K. introduced me to the concept with his redfoots.

 

[jackrat]

Its been a long time since my last update. Tuck and Trey are doing great. They've been living outside full time now for most of the summer. Trey puts himself away every night, but Tuck can't seem to figure it out...
They live here now:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Daisy-s-New-Enclosure#axzz1bODSMaJo

Tuck is 850 grams and Trey is 1026. They are fantastic torts and I look forward to watching them grow up.

Wow Tom,are they ever growing! And smooth as a baby's butt too.

 

[Kristina]

They are about a year and a half now, am I right?

They look beautiful. They are going to be some of the most gorgeous captive bred Sulcatas that ever were when they are adults. You have to stick with TFO, Tom... I *HAVE* to see what they look like in 5 years!

 

[Tom]

Thanks Kristina. I have no intention of going anywhere. They are outside full time now, so I wonder what the "weathering" will do to their already pretty smooth shells. I've seen plenty of examples of young sulcatas that were fairly pyramided turn out fantastically smooth and beautiful, so I can't wait to see how these are going to turn out. I'm also dying to know the sex. They are hovering right in the middle. I can't tell at all yet.

 

[paper_boy]

Hi this would be my first post. First of all congrats to tom for finally winning the war on pyramiding! I have read all post on the subject and I'm convinced that this is the way to go in raising torts. Now for my question, do you this can also apply to radiatas? i know that weather in madagascar, from which the originate, is somewhat different than sulcatas. But from my understanding, radiatas experience monsoon rains half a year so it would make sense to me that tom's approach will work well for radiatas.

Any insights guys?

 

[Tom]

That is uncharted territory paper_boy. I think most people do keep radiata with more humidity than a typical sulcata or leopard, but I don't know if anyone has gone so far as the daily soaks, spraying and humid hides. I'd love to learn from someone else's experience.

---

Just saw your intro thread. If your radiata are already 5", then the pattern for growth is probably already pretty well set. If they are smooth, I'd love to know how whoever raised them did it. Well heck, even if they aren't, I still love to know how they were raised.

 

[terribrown71]

How pretty Tom. [/color][/b]

 

[MatrixDJ]

Thank you Tom, for creating this thread! It is an amazing story and great research!! I just got Athena, my 4 month old greek a short while back and she gets misted every day now too after her bath.