The End Of Pyramiding

[Kristina]

Where I am keeping my babies is 80*F ambient, with about 60% ambient humidity in the enclosure (10% more than in the house itself.) The hide itself has a blacklight bulb over it 24/7 that keeps it a constant 92* in the hide. The only other "basking" area is an incandescent bulb that hangs directly over the water dish. It keeps the water warm, like a little hottub They lay in it a LOT. There is no area that is dry/hot.

My babies are 5 months old now, hard as rocks and actually larger than yours were at the same age (at least heavier.) They have never been under any sort of UV light, and the only "supplementation" they get is once weekly dusting with pure food grade calcium carbonate and a couple of pellets of Mazuri once a week. Just the last two weeks they have been able to go outside during the day.

They are also growing very smoothly. I wish I could STOP LOSING MY CAMERA CORD, I took some nice pictures the other day and I would show you. Ah, well.

Oh, and also, my Greek is 10 months old, hard as a rock, almost ten times the weight she was at 5 weeks. She also has never been under a UV lamp, and never been outside

I have mentioned before that I thought that our basking temps are too hot and dry. I have raised my Sullies without a hot dry area, and they are doing AWESOME.

 

[Tom]

Good stuff Kristina. I've never put a bulb over water like that. Seems logical to me. Doesn't the humid hide dry out with that blacklight in it?

My ambient room humidity is only around 50%, but I get it up to 65-75% in the enclosures by covering the tops. Its 98-100% in the hide boxes.

 

[CtTortoiseMom]

Thanks fellas. Yep these are the same ones from last May. They are not perfect, and there is still more to learn, but I'm very happy with them. I've got a couple of new experiments planned for this year, but its a bit difficult. I'm finding that a major factor in how smooth they turn out is their preference for hanging out in the humid hide box, or not. My biggest smoothest one was in the hide box all the time. My smallest, bumpiest one was almost never in the humid hide. The middle one, seen in this most recent pic, sometimes sleeps in the hide and sometimes not. This year I have more babies to play with, so I'm going to try out a few different ideas that I've been mulling over.

Do they only have one hide in their enclosure? If so do you think it is possible that they don't want to share? I wonder if you put three hides if they would go in whichever is not occupied. Just a thought.

 

[Tom]

I usually use a hide box that takes up an entire end of the enclosure. Plenty big inside, but you might be right. Sort of hard for me to test since I have around 30 babies in a 12x20 room. When I build my next reptile room, I might just have to try that out. I'll put a half dozen in individual enclosures by themselves and see how much they prefer their hide boxes when they are alone.

Once I get rid of these surplus leopard babies, I'll have a free tank...

 

[ticothetort2]

I usually use a hide box that takes up an entire end of the enclosure. Plenty big inside, but you might be right. Sort of hard for me to test since I have around 30 babies in a 12x20 room. When I build my next reptile room, I might just have to try that out. I'll put a half dozen in individual enclosures by themselves and see how much they prefer their hide boxes when they are alone.

Once I get rid of these surplus leopard babies, I'll have a free tank...

How many surplus leo babies do you have to get rid of??

 

[Kristina]

The bulb isn't in the hide, it is over it. That is the beauty of it The hide is just a gladware container with a door cut in it and stuffed with moss. The plastic is thin enough that it warms up nicely, but it also keeps the moisture from evaporating and the moss from drying out.

 

[fgately]

Wow, what a great read! I love it.

It makes logical sense that the baby torts who manage to survive such hot, dry, and dangerous conditions, had to have evolved the ability to stay really well hidden. Staying hidden in burrows, rock crevices, or in and under vegetation will automatically include much higher levels of humidity. These smaller pockets of humidity are micro-climates in an otherwise arid environment. So the evolutionary necessity of good baby-tort-hiding abilities serves two purposes. One, they avoid predation by not being seen. Two, they maintain adequate levels of hydration by living in high-humidity micro-climates. Aint Mother Nature awesome!

I also raise a few species of orchids, and many similar principles apply. It is easy to get orchids to live. Getting them to thrive is another matter. A seemingly small change to their environment can result in huge differences, both positive or negative. I was given an awesome orchid specimen called Schomburgkia about a year ago. Despite all the efforts of it's past owner, who was an orchid expert, it never bloomed in all the years he had it. I hung it up in a tree where it got way too much light (unintentionally) and it proceeded to shoot out a huge flower spike and is ready to bloom for the first time.

So if this high level of humidity is necessary for the baby grassland torts to thrive, is it necessary for the adults? Or juveniles? I'll bet that once the baby torts are off to a good, smooth-shelled start, the humidity levels are not as crucial. Does pyramiding ever happen to a tort that was originally smooth shelled?

Even though it appears as though the majority of us here are not formally scientists, this thread is all about utilizing the Scientific Method regarding humidity and pyramiding in the growth of tortoise shells. I used to teach the fifth grade, and the Scientific Method was one of the subjects I taught my students about. The Scientific Method is "a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses." Of course this has not been a carefully controlled scientific study, but it is adding to the body of knowledge out there regarding tortoise husbandry.

This has also been a lot of fun!

Good work out there!

 

[SnakeyeZ]

Tom, they look really good. While you feel you can get them smoother those are still the smoothest I have seen. I am greatly envious of all you sulcata keepers.

 

[Melly-n-shorty]

I have learned a lot buy reading this thread!

 

[Tom]

Long overdue update: They are over one year now, as of Mid-May. They are both right around 600 grams. They are left outside now most of the time when the weather is nice, but then I soak them and they sleep in their humid enclosure at night. They use their underground burrow/box from time to time now, but usually hang out in the above ground weed bushes.

Trey:


I trained him to sing songs:

He caught me lookin', "Hey you!!!, Yeah you in the bushes with the camera..."



Tuck:
Check out the evil reptilian eye.

Just some beauty shots.

 

[dmmj]

Those are beautiful tom, great job, I wonder is your nickname around your house "Tortoise paparazzi guy"?

 

[CGKeith]

They are looking great Tom.

 

[l0velesly]

So cute! Love the pictures.

 

[Sulcatifornia]

Hello everyone, I'm a new member, I found this forum through google searches about tortoises and it's helped us alot. This thread especially has caught my interest and I have a question for everyone. I've never had tortoises before and I now have 3 baby sulcata, I plan on choosing 1 and eventually adopting out the other 2. I have no information about them from before they've been with me but I believe they're only a few months old. I'm wondering if any of you can tell if their carapaces are pyramiding?

Thanx so much!
Alyssa

 

[dmarcus]

Hello everyone, I'm a new member, I found this forum through google searches about tortoises and it's helped us alot. This thread especially has caught my interest and I have a question for everyone. I've never had tortoises before and I now have 3 baby sulcata, I plan on choosing 1 and eventually adopting out the other 2. I have no information about them from before they've been with me but I believe they're only a few months old. I'm wondering if any of you can tell if their carapaces are pyramiding?

Thanx so much!
Alyssa

Hello Alyssa and welcome.

All three of them look good no pyramiding, smooth as they should be..

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome. They look good so far. Have you seen the care sheet at the top of the sulcata page yet? That is a summary of how I like to keep the babies. You might finding it entertaining and even possibly a little bit useful. I find it VERY difficult to ever part with any of mine. Good luck choosing.

 

[dmmj]

Hello everyone, I'm a new member, I found this forum through google searches about tortoises and it's helped us alot. This thread especially has caught my interest and I have a question for everyone. I've never had tortoises before and I now have 3 baby sulcata, I plan on choosing 1 and eventually adopting out the other 2. I have no information about them from before they've been with me but I believe they're only a few months old. I'm wondering if any of you can tell if their carapaces are pyramiding?

Thanx so much!
Alyssa

So far they look smooth to me.

 

[Paganthegoat]

My first Tortoises were raised in the early 1980`s , we hadnt a clue no one had and i found i had this Pyramiding, as time went on and everyone learnt more i had read that it was too much rapid growth much the same as a puppy getting a complete high protien puppy food and then being given vitamin and calcium suppliments on top .

We saw this a lot when complete dog foods came out (bone deformaties in pups), and the explaination seemed to make sence for the Tortoises too.

I last saw my youngesters when we moved they were the oldest about 15 years , the pyramiding had smoothed out in later years as i guess they had gone out more as they got older.

With a new clutch in the incubateing chamber im hopeing if thier fertile to get it right this time , very interesting thread .

 

[-EJ]

The idea of rapid growth as being a cause of pyramiding is slowly being accepted as being wrong... doesn't really make sense.

There is pretty much one source of this misinformation... and people are starting to realize... it's wrong in some cases.

My first Tortoises were raised in the early 1980`s , we hadnt a clue no one had and i found i had this Pyramiding, as time went on and everyone learnt more i had read that it was too much rapid growth much the same as a puppy getting a complete high protien puppy food and then being given vitamin and calcium suppliments on top .

We saw this a lot when complete dog foods came out (bone deformaties in pups), and the explaination seemed to make sence for the Tortoises too.

I last saw my youngesters when we moved they were the oldest about 15 years , the pyramiding had smoothed out in later years as i guess they had gone out more as they got older.

With a new clutch in the incubateing chamber im hopeing if thier fertile to get it right this time , very interesting thread .

 

[Paganthegoat]

Well if thats so it makes life easier .........i read my info from the British Chelonia group back in the 80`s i cannot remember who wrote the article did the study etc..I have just had a quick look and i cant find the article i am refering to , when i do i will post the details as i think it all helps compareing data etc .