Tortoise left outside overnight and health questions.

[Grxciea]

My 5 Year old Greek tortoise was left out last night due to my father letting her outside and carelessly forgetting about her. I was not at home during this time and got back panicking and got her straight into the warmth. Although its July, the UK weather has not been the best and the temperate last night ranges from 10 degrees Celsius to around 12 at the hottest. She does seem okay but i am aware tortoises can be notorious for hiding underlying issues.

Another question is i am worried about her size because i cannot find any information on Greek tortoise growth progress. As posted before on
this forum, my old tortoise Mavis had a growth problem making her grow too fast for her organs causing her to be put down. This is mainly a concern due to them being from the same breeder. However for Rhiannon its the opposite and has always been quite small although i can’t make a good comparison due to no found knowledge and the only thing i can compare it to is Mavis’s faulty growth.

I will provide some photos of later as i need to take recent ones. if any more are needed with specific details let me know. I’ll get back to you as soon as i am home from school.

 

[wellington]

Who told you your other tortoise grew to fast for its organs and had to be put down?
Were any test done to prove this?
What was going on with him that they suspected something?

If you can post pics of your current tortoise and give us the age and length of him we can help better.
Also the diet.
As for staying out all night, just keep an eye on him for a few days. Keep him with the proper temps and just for a couple days, I would keep the night temps up, around 75.
Most likely he will be fine.

 

[Grxciea]

Who told you your other tortoise grew to fast for its organs and had to be put down?
Were any test done to prove this?
What was going on with him that they suspected something?

If you can post pics of your current tortoise and give us the age and length of him we can help better.
Also the diet.
As for staying out all night, just keep an eye on him for a few days. Keep him with the proper temps and just for a couple days, I would keep the night temps up, around 75.
Most likely he will be fine.

We took the previous tortoise to a specialised reptilian vet due to a prolapse likely to either the growth issue or previous care mistakes. They came to this conclusion after around a couple months of on and off health issues, lots of testing and that her prolapse continued after many attempts of helping with it. I can never 100% guarantee that this was a correct diagnosis as i myself am not a vet however i always hope for the best. If it were not correct, i have improved my care based on the forum’s previous help on an old thread.

I can provide photos a bit later on, approximately two to three hours time. Shes five years old too. I’ll measure the length while taking more recent photos and provide further information then.

Diet wise it varies often with carrot, clovers, bell peppers, collard greens and weeds from the garden. Sometimes we use pellets by Komdo however thats not very often. Thank you for the help, will get back to you with further information soon.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello and welcome to the forum!🥰
Obviously being out at that temperature wasn’t ideal, but after just one night they should be ok, just keep a close eye, usually it takes repeated exposure to low temperatures to make them sick, unless we’re talking freezing.

I’m going to include some information below on an example of an appropriate indoor set up, it includes the correct levels and equipment etc, hopefully it helps for if there’s anything you need to adjust😊

This is one way to come up with an appropriate indoor set up, including the appropriate indoor uv, levels etc.

Basking light should be an incandescent floodlight(example attached) on a 12 hour timer.

Basking temperature directly under the floodlight should be 95-100f. The rest of the enclosure should be ranging 75-80 during the day.

You may also wish to add ambient lighting on the same timer, providing shady areas with hides and safe plants.

Then CHE/CHE’s(ceramic heat emitters) always on a thermostat, for night heat if your house drops below 60’s at night. Set the thermostat for a night temperature place the probe in their cooler end, plug the che into it and the thermostat into the mains, it’ll be plugged in 24/7 but will only turn on when the temperature drops. If your house stays in the 60’s don’t worry about this!

Uv should be a t5 fluorescent tube, avoid the compact and coil uv bulbs, they don’t give out enough uv and can hurt the tortoises eyes. The uv can be on a 4 hour timer from noon. I’ve attached examples of the two brands to go for and some examples of how to mount them.

With lighting always avoid anything labelled halogen or mercury vapour.

For substrates, either coco coir, dampened and packed down by hand as a base, with a layer of orchid(fir not pine) bark or forest floor on top, or just the orchid bark/forest floor. Never use anything with sand mixed in, no top soils and no kinds of moss. The problem with top soil is unless you’ve composted it yourself, you don’t know what kind of plants have gone into it, it could be something toxic. Sand can irritate the eyes and be an impaction risk, moss is an impaction risk too.

For orchid bark I’m currently doing some more research into the kind we get in the uk, so forest floor might be best for now.

You want to aim to have the bottom layer of substrate damp, to do this pour lukewarm water into the corners, not loads but enough to dampen the entire bottom layer. To stop that top layer getting a little too dry/dusty, mix the substrate now n then. Check your monitors and substrate to do the pours as and when needed.

I’d personally recommend you make your own base to go as big as you possibly can for the space you have, roaming room is vital for tortoise health, it aids in digestion and builds muscle strength. The closer you can get to an 8x4 size the better, it’s considered the minimum for an adult Herman.

When making your base, just make sure the material is safe, some use flower beds, or take a large bookcase, take out the shelves and lie flat, or just make their own, for all these options I’d line with cheap pond liner to protect the base, making sure the liner goes up the sides too and make sure those sides are deep enough! They can be professional escape artists😂

I’ve also included examples of stands people make/buy to hang their lighting, use a temperature gun to determine how high the basking bulb needs to be, the uv I suggested needs to be mounted 18-20 inches from the substrate.

For a water dish a shallow terracotta saucer is considered safest, they have grip in the event your tortoise flips themselves, most pet store options are a known hazard.

I’d also always recommend getting your hands on a temp gun, they’re SO handy when setting up a new environment or for checking your monitors are correct🙂

Also you may find this link below useful for some food ideas😁

The Tortoise Table - Home

The Tortoise Table plant database and resource site for Tortoise owners

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

We’ll await for more information from you/ enclosure photos😊

 

[Tom]

@Grxciea
Outside at those temps for one night shouldn't be any problem for a temperate species as long as the tortoise can fully warm up the next day.

There is no info on growth rate because many variables determine growth rate. They grow at vastly different rates for any combination of these variable reasons, so any "average" is completely meaningless and not helpful.

They cannot "grow too fast for their organs". That is silly to even say. There was obviously some sort of nutritional or metabolic problem. Maybe lack of calcium, or lack of D3 due to indoor housing without the correct UV levels? Possibly poor foods, which is sadly the norm with many captive tortoises. Incorrect heat, small enclosure, wrong lighting, organ damage due to dehydration, etc... The advice that is typically given for tortoises is deplorable, so this sort of thing is not surprising. A tortoise that is housed, heated, and fed correctly, cannot grow too fast. They are grazers and need to be able to eat all day. Restricting their food intake to forcibly slow their growth, starving them, is both unnecessary and cruel.

If you want to go over all of these details with your current enclosure for your remaining tortoise, we'd be happy to look over your housing and routine and make recommendations. Tell us what you did previously, what you are doing now, and we can share our thoughts with the intention of helping you.

 

[Grxciea]

@Grxciea
Outside at those temps for one night shouldn't be any problem for a temperate species as long as the tortoise can fully warm up the next day.

There is no info on growth rate because many variables determine growth rate. They grow at vastly different rates for any combination of these variable reasons, so any "average" is completely meaningless and not helpful.

They cannot "grow too fast for their organs". That is silly to even say. There was obviously some sort of nutritional or metabolic problem. Maybe lack of calcium, or lack of D3 due to indoor housing without the correct UV levels? Possibly poor foods, which is sadly the norm with many captive tortoises. Incorrect heat, small enclosure, wrong lighting, organ damage due to dehydration, etc... The advice that is typically given for tortoises is deplorable, so this sort of thing is not surprising. A tortoise that is housed, heated, and fed correctly, cannot grow too fast. They are grazers and need to be able to eat all day. Restricting their food intake to forcibly slow their growth, starving them, is both unnecessary and cruel.

If you want to go over all of these details with your current enclosure for your remaining tortoise, we'd be happy to look over your housing and routine and make recommendations. Tell us what you did previously, what you are doing now, and we can share our thoughts with the intention of helping you.

Thank you so much for the help its very much appreciated. I’d rather know i hadn’t been the best at caring for them than never finding out and making the same mistakes.
I would also like to elaborate that i am currently a teenager living with my parents and as much as i attempt to improve their quality of living it can be difficult with parental restrictions. However i am happy to listen to any constructive criticism and advice. I’m also currently finding ways i can make more money to help provide for them so i can have full responsibility of it.
I’ve been caught up something so photos will be sent later once more (very frustrating) sorry for any inconveniences!

 

[Grxciea]

Here are some photos screenshotted off of a previous tiktok i made aswell as some photos of her. They’re not the most helpful photos so once i am actually home i’ll take better ones and do the measurements. Thank you for your patience

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I completely appreciate the position you’re in, it can be very difficult coming up against parents.

Looking at these initial photos one thing that jumps out is the need to change that substrate asap. It’s not appropriate and will do absolutely nothing for your humidity, pellets like that can be very hazardous if swallowed and potentially swell in the stomach.

Hopefully we can go over what kind of equipment you’re using and you can go over my previous reply once you’re more freed up to make adjustments there if needed. If you don’t already, I’d highly suggest some digital monitors that measure both temperature and humidity👍

 

[Grxciea]

@Grxciea
Outside at those temps for one night shouldn't be any problem for a temperate species as long as the tortoise can fully warm up the next day.

There is no info on growth rate because many variables determine growth rate. They grow at vastly different rates for any combination of these variable reasons, so any "average" is completely meaningless and not helpful.

They cannot "grow too fast for their organs". That is silly to even say. There was obviously some sort of nutritional or metabolic problem. Maybe lack of calcium, or lack of D3 due to indoor housing without the correct UV levels? Possibly poor foods, which is sadly the norm with many captive tortoises. Incorrect heat, small enclosure, wrong lighting, organ damage due to dehydration, etc... The advice that is typically given for tortoises is deplorable, so this sort of thing is not surprising. A tortoise that is housed, heated, and fed correctly, cannot grow too fast. They are grazers and need to be able to eat all day. Restricting their food intake to forcibly slow their growth, starving them, is both unnecessary and cruel.

If you want to go over all of these details with your current enclosure for your remaining tortoise, we'd be happy to look over your housing and routine and make recommendations. Tell us what you did previously, what you are doing now, and we can share our thoughts with the intention of helping you.

I thought i’d elaborate on routines etc too for feedback until i can take photos later.

Previous routine was absolutely terrible and i will own up to my previous neglect. I suffered with quite depressive episodes where i woudlnt get out of bed for weeks and during that time my tortoises were neglected. Their diet consisted of iceburg lettuce which has no nutritional value and for a while they both shared an enclosure and would fight. When they seperated they were in small tortoise tables that they eventually were too big for. I will forever feel guilty for this however i will use it as motivation to be better.

Despite the heavy start, Rhiannon has a larger enclosure with what i think is enough space however that cannot be guaranteed. On days that are warm enough she goes outside into our garden sometimes for the whole day if its in her outdoor pen. Often i’ll let her free roam and supervise for up to 3 hours.
She gets fed and her water filled up as well as her UV light getting turned on at around 7:30AM
Her diet consists of:
-Carrots
-Peppers
-Mixed organic salad bags
-Clovers and a tortoise weed grow kit and occasionally weeds in the garden
-Dandelions when in season

On days where im busy when i’m home i give her more food if she has none left i give her more.
I used to have a stick on thermometer on the wall but it fell off so i’ll fix that. I’ll turn her UV bulb off at around 8:30-9PM.

I calcium dust her food once a week and soak her once a week too. I clean any messed substrate, old food and poo every few days and fully clean out her enclosure around every month (likely not the best but parents don't buy substrate)

Any feedback would be appreciated with this too!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I’m glad you separated them because no matter the species, tortoise should never be in pairs, anyone who tells you pairs are ok doesn’t know tortoises very well.

As adults they ideally need a minimum of an 8x4 enclosure, roaming is vital to tortoise health, it aids digestion and strengthens their muscles.
They can’t get away with smaller if allowed to free roam, I’d highly discourage indoor free roams, being away from their heat source means they’re being exposed to temperatures that are too low quite often, smooth surfaces like laminate flooring will wreak absolute havoc on their hip joints over time.
There’s just numerous reasons it isn’t a good idea unfortunately, harmful floor cleaners, foreign objects being swallowed, getting stuck under things they shouldn’t like shelving or sofas, low temperatures, no uv, getting hit by doors, one member has mentioned they knew someone who’s tort got their head crushed in a door jam😣, flipping hazards, smooth services, the list goes on and is endless.
Outdoor roams should also be in a secure enclosure for safety.
They feel most comfortable and safe in a space that best mimics their natural environment, so an appropriate sized enclosure is always the ultimate goal, hopefully we can help🥰

UV wise, hopefully you can get switched the the appropriate T5 type if not already using that, compact bulbs aren’t any good. If using the incorrect type for a little longer you may get away with it being on longer.
But for the correct UV, you actually only need it on roughly 4hours from noon, there’s lots of debate online and in stores around UV needing to be on a full 12hours, the confusion stems from the fact that it’s presumed once the basking light is on, ie the ‘sun’ that UV must automatically be on with it. If you’re to actually take a UV meter outside, you’ll soon discover that UV rays do not peak for 12 full hours a day, nor to tortoise’s in the wild get exposed to 12 hours of UV a day, therefore it’s not needed in captivity.
If using the incorrect UV there’s no telling if it’s too powerful or too weak, so I’m reluctant to advise you change the timing until it’s corrected.

Diet wise, carrots and peppers could do with being phased out of their diet altogether, they are too high in sugars for these guys. Leafy greens and weeds are the way, have a look through that link I mentioned above when you can🙂also be aware not to be feeding them any fruits👍

The stick on monitor sounds like once of those dial monitors, you’ll be better getting digital that measure the temp and humidity, and I recommend getting a temp gun for back up checks, plus it’s so easy being able to scan the entire parameter😊

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Oh also I just really want to reassure you we are a completely judgment free zone here, we all simply want to give the best advice possible to ensure people have a positive tortoise keeping experience. There’s so much misinformation out there and outdated care, which cause many common health problems.

We are so glad you’ve made your way here and good on you for wanting to improve things, we’ll be here to help every step of the way, each circumstance is different which I completely sympathise with, hopefully we can help getting the best possible set up moving forward whilst taking into consideration your situation living at home❤️

 

[Grxciea]

I’m glad you separated them because no matter the species, tortoise should never be in pairs, anyone who tells you pairs are ok doesn’t know tortoises very well.

As adults they ideally need a minimum of an 8x4 enclosure, roaming is vital to tortoise health, it aids digestion and strengthens their muscles.
They can’t get away with smaller if allowed to free roam, I’d highly discourage indoor free roams, being away from their heat source means they’re being exposed to temperatures that are too low quite often, smooth surfaces like laminate flooring will wreak absolute havoc on their hip joints over time.
There’s just numerous reasons it isn’t a good idea unfortunately, harmful floor cleaners, foreign objects being swallowed, getting stuck under things they shouldn’t like shelving or sofas, low temperatures, no uv, getting hit by doors, one member has mentioned they knew someone who’s tort got their head crushed in a door jam😣, flipping hazards, smooth services, the list goes on and is endless.
Outdoor roams should also be in a secure enclosure for safety.
They feel most comfortable and safe in a space that best mimics their natural environment, so an appropriate sized enclosure is always the ultimate goal, hopefully we can help🥰

UV wise, hopefully you can get switched the the appropriate T5 type if not already using that, compact bulbs aren’t any good. If using the incorrect type for a little longer you may get away with it being on longer.
But for the correct UV, you actually only need it on roughly 4hours from noon, there’s lots of debate online and in stores around UV needing to be on a full 12hours, the confusion stems from the fact that it’s presumed once the basking light is on, ie the ‘sun’ that UV must automatically be on with it. If you’re to actually take a UV meter outside, you’ll soon discover that UV rays do not peak for 12 full hours a day, nor to tortoise’s in the wild get exposed to 12 hours of UV a day, therefore it’s not needed in captivity.
If using the incorrect UV there’s no telling if it’s too powerful or too weak, so I’m reluctant to advise you change the timing until it’s corrected.

Diet wise, carrots and peppers could do with being phased out of their diet altogether, they are too high in sugars for these guys. Leafy greens and weeds are the way, have a look through that link I mentioned above when you can🙂also be aware not to be feeding them any fruits👍

The stick on monitor sounds like once of those dial monitors, you’ll be better getting digital that measure the temp and humidity, and I recommend getting a temp gun for back up checks, plus it’s so easy being able to scan the entire parameter😊

i’ll definitely have to take a proper look at the link tonight and write down some notes. I don’t let her free roam inside of the house especially because she has a habit of eating anything unedible ahah. Again thank you so much for all the advice you’ve given. I’m not too sure what bulb it is so i’ll try to find out or find the box.
With the temperature equipment i’ll likely have to save a bit of money first but i’m hoping to get £300 from one of my literature pieces. Do you think that will cover for some of that?

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

i’ll definitely have to take a proper look at the link tonight and write down some notes. Again thank you so much for all the advice you’ve given. I’m not too sure what bulb it is so i’ll try to find out or find the box.
With the temperature equipment i’ll likely have to save a bit of money first but i’m hoping to get £300 from one of my literature pieces. Do you think that will cover for some of that?

Hello!
That's an example set of heating/lightning for one enclosure. It's on SwellReptile online shop (they have sale ongoing now). For two enclosures some items can be reused (e.g. timers). Also, if enclosures are side-by-side, a single longer UVB tube instead of two can be used. Same for the ambient lights. For the basking lamp dome is not necessary, but I have included it just in case.

If you have any questions - please, ask.

 

[Tom]

i’ll definitely have to take a proper look at the link tonight and write down some notes.

Here are those links again. Diet, substrate, and much more is on these:

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[wellington]

Follow advice given. Top priority is the substrate and diet. Diet needs improving, substrate needs to be gone and either orchid bark or fir bark used. If you don't have the money for substrate, use the ground that is in her outdoor enclosure.
Minimum enclosure size is 4x8 foot
If you get her outside 3-4 times a week, you can leave the indoor uvb light off.
Basking temp needs to be with an incandescent flood bulb and reach temps of 95-100. Over all temp should range from 75-80.

 

[Grxciea]

Here are the promised photos, sorry for the time inconvenience. I’ve measured her too.
Length wise she is around 12cm and width is around 8 or 9cm. It was hard to get an accurate measure due to her moving a lot.

This is a photo of her enclosure, i’ve just arrived at home and am aware its a bit of a mess. I am currently mucking it out. Also took a picture of the bulb as i still cannot find the make yet. Also i her water was full this morning, i dont know how she gets it so dirty!

 

[zolasmum]

Hello from Devon. Rhiannon looks very sweet - and what a lovely name ! I'm sorry you had such a bad time with depression - however, when you get things running smoothly for Rhiannon, and can relax and just enjoy her company, I think you will feel a lot better in general - tortoises are good at cheering one up.
Angie

 

[Grxciea]

Follow advice given. Top priority is the substrate and diet. Diet needs improving, substrate needs to be gone and either orchid bark or fir bark used. If you don't have the money for substrate, use the ground that is in her outdoor enclosure.
Minimum enclosure size is 4x8 foot
If you get her outside 3-4 times a week, you can leave the indoor uvb light off.
Basking temp needs to be with an incandescent flood bulb and reach temps of 95-100. Over all temp should range from 75-80.

My bulbs direct heat is 96

But the actual hot area of the enclosure is 82

The rest of the area is 75

The cool area/hide is 64

I borrowed a temp gun from my neighbour who is also a tortoise owner.

My father, who bought the lamp, says it was a basking and UV bulb however he does not remember the brand.

I have taken notes on what i’ve read on the given links , those will be attached below.

I am also considering purchasing or making a vivarium rather than the table as she needs a larger space. I will replace my desk area with it. Would it be okay if i were to rest my TV on the vivarium?

This will obviously take a lot of saving and time but when i do get the vivarium i’ll have a basking light separate to a uv one with timers.

 

[wellington]

A basking a uvb in one bulb is the wrong bulb. It's likely a mercury or halogen and those are not good to use.
Neither are any of the coil/cfl bulbs.

 

[Grxciea]

A basking a uvb in one bulb is the wrong bulb. It's likely a mercury or halogen and those are not good to use.
Neither are any of the coil/cfl bulbs.

I thought so, im going to make something i can clamp a basking bulb onto aswell as a UV strip. Would that work? I am currently looking through the recommendations i’ve been sent here and finding those things online.