Tortoise Troubles!!!

[sift]

I have some concerns with my Russian tortoise and I'm hoping that someone here can help. Here's the pertinent information:

Husbandry
Substrate: EcoEarth/Soil mixture approximately 30/70
Diet: Dole SpringMix (or comparable salad mix) supplemented with additional greens and dandelions, dusted twice per week w/calcium supplement (one of those times being a calcium +D3), fresh water, cuttle bone and timothy hay are available at all times
Temperatures: Ambient air temperature over the tortoise table is 78F, the soil on the cool side is 74F, the warm side is 83F with a basking spot of 92F, evening temperatures do not go below 65F, once every second day I soak the soil at the cool end of the enclosure and it hits around 66F
UVB: Compact 5.0 bulb placed 14" away from surface
Humidity: Fairly low, which is why I soak the one end of the enclosure - the tortoise also gets a bath in warm water for approximately 15-20 minutes once per week

Here's the problem... My tortoise is losing weight and seems to rub her eyes a lot. She eats all or most of the large pile of greens I provide for her on a daily basis, is quite active, urinates and defecates, but is still losing weight. I've had her to the vet and a fecal sample turns up negative for parasites. The vet (who probably has seen two or three tortoises in his life) also says that she is active, appears healthy, is breathing fine, and has good muscle tone. I say that my yearling tortoise is a runt and has lost around 10g since I first got her in the summer months.

I'm hoping that someone can give me some tips or insight as to what may be ailing her/him. I've gone over my husbandry numerous times, checked and rechecked temps, offered a varied diet, and yet s/he still seems to be declining. I'm really hoping you guys have some ideas. I'd hate to lose the little munchkin...

 

[Yvonne G]

I know that most people don't say to feed veggies, but I do. I offer my Russians zucchini, yellow squash, green peppers, broccoli, cucumber, turnip greens, collard greens, rappini, cactus, clover, dandelion, dichondra, escarole, raddiccio, red and green-leaf lettuce, romaine, tomatoes, yams and endive. Whatever they sell in the produce department, I offer at least once. If they eat it, then I buy it all the time. Because I shop for over 100 tortoises, I can afford to buy a little bit of everything listed above. So one feeding usually always includes everything shown. I feed them every other day and they graze when I don't feed them. Babies I feed every day.

Yvonne

 

[mctlong]

Wow Yvonne, a 100+ tortoises! You must be busy. My hands are full with just two.

Christina,

The low humidity could explain why she keeps rubbing her eyes. Her eyes could be dry.

Have you noticed any bubbles in her nose? Is she having any trouble breathing or is she wheezing at all? She shouldn't be loosing weight on the diet you're feeding her. Did the vet do any bloodwork? If she continues to loose weight, perhaps you should consider taking her to a more qualified vet.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Why don't you get rid of that light bulb and for now just use a regular incandescent 100 watt bulb. Believe me, we have had serious problems caused by certain bulbs. I have read papers that say the bulb problem is fixed, but maybe your bulb is bad. So let's change the bulb for now and offer the diet that Yvonne is saying to try. Then if he doesn't perk up you will have at least narrowed that down and showed that it wasn't caused by the light or diet. I used one of those bulbs and it blinded one Sulcata hatchling, killed a another baby, it was awful.

 

[sift]

Alright.. Plans are to toss the bulb (my day geckos can have it, they like 'em) and get some squash, zucchini, broccoli, cactus, etc. into her diet.

It's been recommended that I give her a precautionary treatment of Panacur... What are your thoughts on this?

 

[K9KidsLove]

Hi Christina...As soon as you said you had a compact bulb, I knew you were going to say your tort was having problems with his eyes.

I wouldn't use it for ANY reptiles. It has a history of causing problems with eyes in lizards as well as with tortoises. Reptiles get lethargic & eventually quit eating while having compacts and coil UVB lights over them.
Go to www.petmountain.com to get a ReptiSun 10 or 5 long fluorescent bulb. They are on sale right now. Check the site for other supplies as well. Even with the shipping charge, it isn't any more expensive than the incorrect ones at PetSmart.
good luck
Patsy

 

[tortoisenerd]

I personally don't believe in giving anyone including a tortoise medication for an unconfirmed illness. I do believe in getting the fecal test re-checked about 2-3 months after the first one due to the life cycles of parasites, and then yearly. They pick up different things each time. Just because it was negative doesn't mean the tortoise is parasite free, it only means none of the parasites were in such high amounts to get counted on the microscope. Others will say de-wormer is cheap and safe.

I recommend a Mercury Vapor Bulb such as Mega Ray or T-Rex. They give off so much more UVB, no safety issues, and have been known to perk up reptiles too.

You can increase humidity by adding water and mixing up the substrate in the entire enclosure. Take some photos if you want opinions. The substrate should hold shape when you pick up and squeeze a handful, but no water should drip out.

Mazuri and/or Grassland Tortoise food both could help increase the calories. Many of us use one or the other as a supplement.

I do think if she seems to be eating well and everything else is ok, then something likely is going on health wise for her not to gain weight, unless she's just not eating enough. How big is a large pile of greens? As large as she is? You can try offering more food, or twice a day too.

 

[mctlong]

Why don't you get rid of that light bulb and for now just use a regular incandescent 100 watt bulb. Believe me, we have had serious problems caused by certain bulbs. I have read papers that say the bulb problem is fixed, but maybe your bulb is bad. So let's change the bulb for now and offer the diet that Yvonne is saying to try. Then if he doesn't perk up you will have at least narrowed that down and showed that it wasn't caused by the light or diet. I used one of those bulbs and it blinded one Sulcata hatchling, killed a another baby, it was awful.

OMG, that scary! These bulbs were causing blindness and death ?! Were they recalled? I'm so glad this forum exists so that information like this can get out to tort owners.

 

[Rhyno47]

My little sulcata is always scratching his face. But I blame it on his scales that are shedding right now. He was starting to lose the two big ones that sulcatas have on their cheeks and they were hanging half off so it looked like he had ears. Plus substrate gets in their eyes sometimes and agitates them.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

The compact coil bulbs caused a lot of trouble a few months back. Suposedly they are fixed now, but I continually hear about torts with eye problems or eating problems and they are under a compact bulb. I lost one hatchling and another is blind now because of those bulbs...
I seem to have lost the link to those bulbs, but I bet Yvonne has it...Hey sis...you have that link?

 

[Yvonne G]

No, I no longer have it. But this link was just posted this a.m. by Shelly (Mctlong) on another thread:

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-summary.htm

Yvonne

 

[Shelly]

No, I no longer have it. But this link was just posted this a.m. by Shelly (Mctlong) on another thread:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-summary.htm

No, I didn't post that, and I am not "Mctlong".

 

[Yvonne G]

No, I no longer have it. But this link was just posted this a.m. by Shelly (Mctlong) on another thread:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-summary.htm

No, I didn't post that, and I am not "Mctlong".

Mctlong is Shelly Long in Southern Calif. She posted the link this a.m. And I now know that YOU, Mr. Shelly, are JOHN!!

Yvonne

 

[mctlong]

I'm Shelly! Apparently, one of many.

I'm very concerned about the UV bulbs and wonder why they have not been recalled. Obviously, the problem has not been corrected.

 

[sift]

She's still losing weight and rubbing her eyes. I've been giving her more regular baths and I've got some Flagyl on the way. I think I'm going to start up a fairly regular routine of Flagyl being as Nor DOES go outside and a regular deworming program just makes sense (I deworm my dogs proactively without knowing whether or not they actually have worms and all veterinarians I know agree with that regimen). I'm also considering changing her substrate from soil/eco earth to cypress mulch in case the dust from the dirt is what's causing the irritation. What are the thoughts on that? I know she was on cypress mulch/repti bark before she came home with me so maybe it would help her to be back on it.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

It's the bulb, I promise...and not enough humidity...Pour water over all the substrate. Cypress mulch is what I use, but eco earth and sand are a good substrate to have, experienced keepers have been using it for months.
If that was my baby I would get rid of that bulb ASAP and get a flourscent or let her outside for a couple of hours a day...

 

[Yvonne G]

Also, there's no need to use Flagyl or Panacur that often. Once you rid the tortoise of the parasites, whether worms or protozoa, you don't need to do it again unless you get a fecal test done and the tortoise is re-infested. Flagyl and Panacur are the de-wormers of choice for tortoises, however, these medications are actually poisons that are intended to poison and kill the parasites. They can be harmful to your tortoise and no need to subject him to them unless really required to do so.

Yvonne

 

[sift]

It's the bulb, I promise...and not enough humidity...Pour water over all the substrate. Cypress mulch is what I use, but eco earth and sand are a good substrate to have, experienced keepers have been using it for months.
If that was my baby I would get rid of that bulb ASAP and get a flourscent or let her outside for a couple of hours a day...

The bulb is gone and I've been soaking her substrate. Still no marked improvement but she seems to be enjoying her now daily bath. I think humidity will be easier to maintain with the cypress mulch (the reptile room tends to get dry on me) so I'll probably be switching over to that shortly.

Also, there's no need to use Flagyl or Panacur that often. Once you rid the tortoise of the parasites, whether worms or amoeba, you don't need to do it again unless you get a fecal test done and the tortoise is re-infested. Flagyl and Panacur are the de-wormers of choice for tortoises, however, these medications are actually poisons that are intended to poison and kill the parasites. They can be harmful to your tortoise and no need to subject him to them unless really required to do so.

Yvonne

I was thinking once a year for the Flagyl when she 'comes back inside', i.e. is no longer able to go out due to temperatures (I live in Canada so that stopped being a possibility in August). I don't think that this could be considered over doing it and the benefits outweigh the risks (in my opinion).

I want to thank everyone very much for their help and concern. I'll keep you updated on how the little munchkin is doing!

 

[K9KidsLove]

Hi...Do you know how to dose the Flagyl? It is easy to overdose it, which can make him completely stop eating...forever!

Good luck
Patsy

 

[egyptiandan]

Flagyl is just used for protozoa and not any kind of worms. Like Kate said, I'd have the fecal test re-done and have them check for protozoa this time. Actually you should have 3 fecal tests (at 2 week intervals) done. This way worm eggs will most likely be found in one of the tests if she has worms.

Danny