When to be concerned?

[FalconTort]

Hello everyone.

I have a healthy full grown Russian tortoise and a seemingly healthy Sulcata baby (reason for 'seemingly' is below).

I over panic when things do not seem 'normal' for my Sulcata and am at a loss as to when to truly be concerned.

I've read all the possible posts on this website regarding proper care for Sulcata babies, what to feed them, what the enclosure should be like, etc. before deciding that I had enough information to properly set everything up prior to getting my little one.

To give more information: I have had him (using masculine term for ease of reference) for a little over two months. I noticed that his shell was a little soft today (I've read Tom's post about that Jerky syndrome thing and I freaked out more); however, it isn't really spungy... Anyway, his indoor enclosure has two shallow water dishes that I fill with warm water every morning and night because he goes in his water a lot and one was always getting really dirty. I give him daily soaks for 15 to 30 minutes every day (an extra if he is outside when the temp is over 90). His substrate is coconut coir and outside is just dirt (no chemicals used, i.e. weed killer). His indoor enclosure is that turtle box (I modified it to be more suitable to keep in heat and moisture) with two hides. One is under the wire top and the other is in the closed area. The humidity ranges from 70%-100%. Temperature at night is about 80 degrees and during the day it gets slightly above 100. He gets natural sunlight daily (inside and outside). His diet consists mostly of wheat grass, spring mix (omitting the spinach if it's included), kale, and timothy hay. His has a great appetite in the morning and in the evening. He has been pooping more regularly, but definitely not nearly as much as my Russian.

His outdoor enclosure is new. I was keeping him in a little kiddy pool with dirt mixed with the coconut coir and a moist hide. I was only setting him in this for an hour or two every day. Again I made sure he had access to a shallow water dish and food. I built him a better and bigger outdoor enclosure that has shade on all sides, two hides (one facing the morning sun and the other facing the evening sun), two water dishes at each end and a food dish on the cooler side. Right now the outside temp in Nevada is around 95. I spray hot water inside his hides before leaving for work in the morning (today was my first day leaving him in there all day). When I got home, he had eaten almost all of his food from the morning, was in his hide until the temp started to cool down a little and then he was out walking around like normal and ate most of the food I put in there for his evening meal (his meals are not a heaping amount. Maybe about the size of what you put soy sauce in for sushi). I put him back inside before it gets too cool and I soak him before he goes back in his indoor enclosure. This is when I noticed his shell being softer than normal... Then I started researching, and then I started to panic.

His weight is lower than it should be (42.5 grams), but his appetite is really great and he is very responsive when I pick him up or touch his legs... He does have a slight morph/indentation from where the egg sack area didn't heal properly (I'm guessing on this), but I don't know if this would cause problems.

My question is, should I be concerned? Should I not have him outside for too long? What would be considered too long?

Thanks for reading and I'm sorry there's a lot of content. I wanted to be thorough. I can post pictures tomorrow after work if needed.

 

[ascott]

Hello everyone.

I have a healthy full grown Russian tortoise and a seemingly healthy Sulcata baby (reason for 'seemingly' is below).

I over panic when things do not seem 'normal' for my Sulcata and am at a loss as to when to truly be concerned.

I've read all the possible posts on this website regarding proper care for Sulcata babies, what to feed them, what the enclosure should be like, etc. before deciding that I had enough information to properly set everything up prior to getting my little one.

To give more information: I have had him (using masculine term for ease of reference) for a little over two months. I noticed that his shell was a little soft today (I've read Tom's post about that Jerky syndrome thing and I freaked out more); however, it isn't really spungy... Anyway, his indoor enclosure has two shallow water dishes that I fill with warm water every morning and night because he goes in his water a lot and one was always getting really dirty. I give him daily soaks for 15 to 30 minutes every day (an extra if he is outside when the temp is over 90). His substrate is coconut coir and outside is just dirt (no chemicals used, i.e. weed killer). His indoor enclosure is that turtle box (I modified it to be more suitable to keep in heat and moisture) with two hides. One is under the wire top and the other is in the closed area. The humidity ranges from 70%-100%. Temperature at night is about 80 degrees and during the day it gets slightly above 100. He gets natural sunlight daily (inside and outside). His diet consists mostly of wheat grass, spring mix (omitting the spinach if it's included), kale, and timothy hay. His has a great appetite in the morning and in the evening. He has been pooping more regularly, but definitely not nearly as much as my Russian.

His outdoor enclosure is new. I was keeping him in a little kiddy pool with dirt mixed with the coconut coir and a moist hide. I was only setting him in this for an hour or two every day. Again I made sure he had access to a shallow water dish and food. I built him a better and bigger outdoor enclosure that has shade on all sides, two hides (one facing the morning sun and the other facing the evening sun), two water dishes at each end and a food dish on the cooler side. Right now the outside temp in Nevada is around 95. I spray hot water inside his hides before leaving for work in the morning (today was my first day leaving him in there all day). When I got home, he had eaten almost all of his food from the morning, was in his hide until the temp started to cool down a little and then he was out walking around like normal and ate most of the food I put in there for his evening meal (his meals are not a heaping amount. Maybe about the size of what you put soy sauce in for sushi). I put him back inside before it gets too cool and I soak him before he goes back in his indoor enclosure. This is when I noticed his shell being softer than normal... Then I started researching, and then I started to panic.

His weight is lower than it should be (42.5 grams), but his appetite is really great and he is very responsive when I pick him up or touch his legs... He does have a slight morph/indentation from where the egg sack area didn't heal properly (I'm guessing on this), but I don't know if this would cause problems.

My question is, should I be concerned? Should I not have him outside for too long? What would be considered too long?

Thanks for reading and I'm sorry there's a lot of content. I wanted to be thorough. I can post pictures tomorrow after work if needed.

Pics are always a good help....however, when you say soft shell do you mean slightly pliable or do you mean like a water balloon? Slightly pliable is no reason to go off to crazy town....

 

[Tom]

Here is what I see:

1. Those "turtle boxes", I assume you are talking about the ZooMed Tortoise house, are not a good way to house them. I don't see how humidity could be 70-100% in one of those with lights on the outside creating a chimney effect. Did you close in the lights too? What type of hygrometer are you using? If its the stick-on dial type, we've found our problem. Those aren't accurate or reliable.
2. Coco coir is too messy for baby sulcatas, as you are seeing. Fine grade orchid bark works much better.
3. Sprouted wheat grass is good. Spring mix or kale should only make up a small percentage of the diet and not be fed very often. Timothy hay has no purpose for a 42 gram baby. Its too stemmy for all but the larger adults in my opinion. Save the hay for when the tortoise is around 12", and when its time for hay, use orchard grass hay or bermuda. Hay should also not be offered in the indoor enclosure because it is too messy and will mold. Read this for what to feed your baby: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/
4. Babies should not be outside for more than an hour or two. Outside all day is not good for sulcata babies, and its especially bad in a dry climate like yours or mine.
5. Where in the indoor enclosure is the temperature 100 during the day? Do you mean directly under the basking lamp, or the whole enclosure?
6. Please reassure us all that the russian and sulcata are being housed in separate enclosures.
7. Hopefully this baby was at least a month old when you bought it. That would make it three months old now. They hatch at 35-40 grams and by 60 days old, they should double their hatch weight. By 90 days old, triple or over 100 grams. If your baby is still 42 grams, something is wrong. Where did you get the baby and how was it started? If it had a dry start and the kidneys were too badly damaged before you bought it, there is nothing you or anyone can do to save it. No vet and no amount of money. No expert and even the best care in the world cannot undo that damage. All you can do is soak daily, keep it warm and humid, feed it right and hope for the best. Some make it and some don't.

Hope this helps. Questions are welcome.

 

[FalconTort]

Pics are always a good help....however, when you say soft shell do you mean slightly pliable or do you mean like a water balloon? Slightly pliable is no reason to go off to crazy town....

His shell is definitely not like a water balloon. Just seems softer than usual. It is pliable so maybe it's okay. He doesn't have any problems keeping his eyes open and hasn't had any oozing from eyes, mouth, or nose.

 

[FalconTort]

Here is what I see:

1. Those "turtle boxes", I assume you are talking about the ZooMed Tortoise house, are not a good way to house them. I don't see how humidity could be 70-100% in one of those with lights on the outside creating a chimney effect. Did you close in the lights too? What type of hygrometer are you using? If its the stick-on dial type, we've found our problem. Those aren't accurate or reliable.
2. Coco coir is too messy for baby sulcatas, as you are seeing. Fine grade orchid bark works much better.
3. Sprouted wheat grass is good. Spring mix or kale should only make up a small percentage of the diet and not be fed very often. Timothy hay has no purpose for a 42 gram baby. Its too stemmy for all but the larger adults in my opinion. Save the hay for when the tortoise is around 12", and when its time for hay, use orchard grass hay or bermuda. Hay should also not be offered in the indoor enclosure because it is too messy and will mold. Read this for what to feed your baby: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/for-those-who-have-a-young-sulcata.76744/
4. Babies should not be outside for more than an hour or two. Outside all day is not good for sulcata babies, and its especially bad in a dry climate like yours or mine.
5. Where in the indoor enclosure is the temperature 100 during the day? Do you mean directly under the basking lamp, or the whole enclosure?
6. Please reassure us all that the russian and sulcata are being housed in separate enclosures.
7. Hopefully this baby was at least a month old when you bought it. That would make it three months old now. They hatch at 35-40 grams and by 60 days old, they should double their hatch weight. By 90 days old, triple or over 100 grams. If your baby is still 42 grams, something is wrong. Where did you get the baby and how was it started? If it had a dry start and the kidneys were too badly damaged before you bought it, there is nothing you or anyone can do to save it. No vet and no amount of money. No expert and even the best care in the world cannot undo that damage. All you can do is soak daily, keep it warm and humid, feed it right and hope for the best. Some make it and some don't.

Hope this helps. Questions are welcome.

Thanks for your reply Tom.
1) I haven't had any problem with humidity, but mainly because I have plants I start off in the same room (outside his enclosure of course) and they get watered pretty consistently. The heat of the room never goes below 80 and the heat from the afternoon sun also helps with humidity. When my Russian was inside for the winter I had a harder time keeping the humidity down and had to move his indoor enclosure to another room when I got my Sulcata. I only cover the wire cage part at night and made a cover to allow enough air flow, but to keep in heat as well as humidity. I use a digital humidity and temperature gage that I bought at Home Depot. Should I use something different?
2) Noted and will be replacing as soon as possible.
3) For some reason I thought kale and spring mix were on the 'good to feed' list, but also noted and will be improving as of today.
4) Yesterday was his first day outside and will no longer exceed one to two hours like before.
5) Only under the basking light. The covered part of the cage is a little cooler - 95 and about 93 if the humidity is higher. Again if I'm using the wrong thermometer, this will not be accurate.
6) I've never had my Russian with my Sulcata. Not even for the purpose of taking pictures. I don't let my Sulcata go in the same areas as my Russian either because of the concerns I have with how dirty my Russian can get...
7) This one is a little harder to answer. I was told he was around 4 weeks old when I got him. I got him from a breeder in the Sacramento area, but I can't remember his name. I was told that he was kept in high humidity with access to water and sprouted grass. The enclosure he was in didn't seem terrible when I saw it in person, but there were some concerning areas. Glass enclosure with a steep den that could have easily caused roll over from the babies. Other than those two things, the humidity was about 80% and the temperature was around 97 degrees. I asked for more pictures on where they started since he only placed them in this after the egg sack was dissolved... That enclosure wasn't very good. He used rabbit pellets which I've learned are a huge problem and it was quite dry. I honestly didn't know how detrimental this could be for the babies.

Thank you for the reply and for the information.

 

[Tom]

Thanks for your reply Tom.
1) I haven't had any problem with humidity, but mainly because I have plants I start off in the same room (outside his enclosure of course) and they get watered pretty consistently. The heat of the room never goes below 80 and the heat from the afternoon sun also helps with humidity. When my Russian was inside for the winter I had a harder time keeping the humidity down and had to move his indoor enclosure to another room when I got my Sulcata. I only cover the wire cage part at night and made a cover to allow enough air flow, but to keep in heat as well as humidity. I use a digital humidity and temperature gage that I bought at Home Depot. Should I use something different?
2) Noted and will be replacing as soon as possible.
3) For some reason I thought kale and spring mix were on the 'good to feed' list, but also noted and will be improving as of today.
4) Yesterday was his first day outside and will no longer exceed one to two hours like before.
5) Only under the basking light. The covered part of the cage is a little cooler - 95 and about 93 if the humidity is higher. Again if I'm using the wrong thermometer, this will not be accurate.
6) I've never had my Russian with my Sulcata. Not even for the purpose of taking pictures. I don't let my Sulcata go in the same areas as my Russian either because of the concerns I have with how dirty my Russian can get...
7) This one is a little harder to answer. I was told he was around 4 weeks old when I got him. I got him from a breeder in the Sacramento area, but I can't remember his name. I was told that he was kept in high humidity with access to water and sprouted grass. The enclosure he was in didn't seem terrible when I saw it in person, but there were some concerning areas. Glass enclosure with a steep den that could have easily caused roll over from the babies. Other than those two things, the humidity was about 80% and the temperature was around 97 degrees. I asked for more pictures on where they started since he only placed them in this after the egg sack was dissolved... That enclosure wasn't very good. He used rabbit pellets which I've learned are a huge problem and it was quite dry. I honestly didn't know how detrimental this could be for the babies.

Thank you for the reply and for the information.

1. You found the one way that an open topped enclosure can work. Heat and humidify the entire room. This is better than being in a typical dry room, but still not as good as a closed chamber. I say this based on years of results using both methods with hundreds of hatchlings. Your digital thermometer and hygrometer from HD should be adequate.
3. These things are good to feed, but only as a small part of a varied diet. Not as main staples. Grass should be a large portion of the diet on a daily basis. A wide variety of other stuff, including kale and spring mix, should make up the rest. Weeds and leaves are better for them and free.
5. This sounds great! I like a daytime ambient in the low 90s for sucata babies. It suits them well. 80 at night is great.
6. If you are a woman, you get an internet hug for this answer. If you are a man, you get an internet high five and a hearty slap on the back. Maybe a shoulder punch too, but that might be going too far…
7. What an odd mixed bag… High humidity, but rabbit pellets? Access to water is good, but that is not soaking. Babies need to be soaked every day. Sprouted grass is excellent, but what else did he feed them? This leaves us with a lot of "ifs… If the baby drank enough… If the diet was varied… If he soaked them often enough… If the dry substrate and high heat didn't desiccate them too much over that four week period…

Time will tell. All you can do is offer the best conditions, hydration and diet possible and hope for the best. Some make it and some don't when started too dry. I hope yours is one of the survivors and everything is fine. If not, you at least know why.

 

[Yvonne G]

Did you mention calcium and I missed it? A pinch of calcium over the food three times a week, then mashed in with a fork and all mixed up so he can't see it.

 

[FalconTort]

1. You found the one way that an open topped enclosure can work. Heat and humidify the entire room. This is better than being in a typical dry room, but still not as good as a closed chamber. I say this based on years of results using both methods with hundreds of hatchlings. Your digital thermometer and hygrometer from HD should be adequate.
3. These things are good to feed, but only as a small part of a varied diet. Not as main staples. Grass should be a large portion of the diet on a daily basis. A wide variety of other stuff, including kale and spring mix, should make up the rest. Weeds and leaves are better for them and free.
5. This sounds great! I like a daytime ambient in the low 90s for sucata babies. It suits them well. 80 at night is great.
6. If you are a woman, you get an internet hug for this answer. If you are a man, you get an internet high five and a hearty slap on the back. Maybe a shoulder punch too, but that might be going too far…
7. What an odd mixed bag… High humidity, but rabbit pellets? Access to water is good, but that is not soaking. Babies need to be soaked every day. Sprouted grass is excellent, but what else did he feed them? This leaves us with a lot of "ifs… If the baby drank enough… If the diet was varied… If he soaked them often enough… If the dry substrate and high heat didn't desiccate them too much over that four week period…

Time will tell. All you can do is offer the best conditions, hydration and diet possible and hope for the best. Some make it and some don't when started too dry. I hope yours is one of the survivors and everything is fine. If not, you at least know why.

What does a closed chamber look like? I can definitely modify what I have to accommodate the proper housing for him.
That's my first 'internet hug' so thank you haha.
And I apologize I may have miss-typed the humidity with rabbit pellets... I don't have all of the information on how they were kept exactly prior to the humid dirt glass enclosure. I just know it was another glass tank with rabbit pellets and a couple water dishes and I don't think there was any humidity other than from what could have accumulated from the water dishes mixed with the heat... I'm assuming this is where the problem lies and I didn't find this out until I had questions about the indentation on his plastron (it literally looks like someone's fingernail went into the shell and it left a permanent indent).
As far as I was told, he was only fed sprouted wheat grass. He eats it well now so I'm assuming this information was mostly accurate.
I'm going to weigh him weekly to mark his progress. If he doesn't increase in weight, I'm assuming it's only a matter of time before he starts declining, but I'm hopeful only because he does drink a lot of water and lays in his water before eating. He does this even after a soak. I'm hoping he had this behavior before which could increase his chances.

Thank you so much for your advice. I really appreciate it.

 

[FalconTort]

Did you mention calcium and I missed it? A pinch of calcium over the food three times a week, then mashed in with a fork and all mixed up so he can't see it.

I sprinkle calcium on his food about twice a week, but could easily increase this to three times a week.
Thank you!

 

[Tom]

What does a closed chamber look like?

Here is one way to do it:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-stack-of-animal-plastics-closed-chambers.165626/#post-1600958