dog training advice needed

drew54

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My wife's great Dane is about 5 months old and we believe he was sold to us around 4 weeks old and was told he was 9 weeks old. His behavior is very uncontrollable. He constantly mouths, jumps, bites, all the stuff puppies do, but he gets so excited it interferes with his learning. His behavior is getting more aggressive and we're afraid he is going to hurt somebody. We are looking at many training places, but my question is what type of training would be best for this situation? Personal training or group training?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.
 

Tom

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My wife's great Dane is about 5 months old and we believe he was sold to us around 4 weeks old and was told he was 9 weeks old. His behavior is very uncontrollable. He constantly mouths, jumps, bites, all the stuff puppies do, but he gets so excited it interferes with his learning. His behavior is getting more aggressive and we're afraid he is going to hurt somebody. We are looking at many training places, but my question is what type of training would be best for this situation? Personal training or group training?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.
Normal Dane pup behavior. I've raised 9 of them. My favorite pet breed. LOOOOOVVVVE them. My most recent is Logan. Got him as an 8 month old rescue for exactly the problems you are describing. His family couldn't handle him.

150 pounds at one year old:
IMG_6606 copy 2.JPG

3 ways to train a dog:
  1. Group classes. Lowest cost. Middle effectiveness, and effectiveness depends greatly on who your trainer is.
  2. Private one-on-one training lessons. Middle cost. Most effective by far if you get a good trainer.
  3. Send your dog away for training. Most expensive by far. Least effective by far. I recommend against this in most cases, even though I make a stack of cash doing it. I already know how to train a dog. Teaching my client how to train a dog (Option #2) is the most effective way to fix problems.
I suggest #2 for you. Find a trainer near you that does protection dog training. You don't need protection training, but protection dog trainers understand drive, compulsive training, and motivational training, better than trainers who don't do aggression work.

Also, be prepared to jump right into the debate about "positive reinforcement only" style training vs. traditional training with correction collars and no cookies. The debate is absurd. BOTH methods are good and valid. BOTH methods have their strong and weak points. Each dog needs BOTH of the methods applied in the correct way at the correct time to get a well behaved family pet. Don't let anyone tell you that either method is wrong. Find someone who has a large "bag of tricks" and uses many varied methods to train dogs. I don't handle a vicious 120 pound Rottweiler the same way I handle a terrified mini poodle. I don't handle a protection trained malinois the same way I handle a beagle puppy. Every dog needs something different, and what they need changes as they learn and mature.

Danes tend to be buck wild and a little scary for about a year and a half, and then most of them settle down nicely and become wonderful family pets after that. Logan walked right up and confidently bit me in the... uhhh.... "crotch area" the day I met him. I smacked him good across the nose for that one and he promptly answered by biting my arm next. It was love at first sight. My kind of dog! Very playful, bold and outgoing, and not overly sensitive to corrections. Young Danes sometimes have a hard time taking "no" for an answer when they are wound up and want to play. A good trainer will show you how to get your point across effectively.

Feel free to ask more questions. I'm happy to talk about it all day long. My fee for answering your dog training questions is a few pics of your dog posted here in your thread. :). Please pay up promptly. :D
 

wellington

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@Tom for the possible safety of the dog, could you elaborate on the traditional training you mentioned. I think I know what you are talking about, I too believe in training collars if the situation calls for it. However, there have been some trainers out there and I'm sure still are out there, that believe in a training method that I would call abuse.
Just so some understand what the "traditional" you speak of.
 

wellington

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The biggest problem with training a dog is inconsistency and patience. All family members need to be on the same page, consistent and patient.
Training is 90% human problems and 10% dog. If the above don't happen you'll get a partially trained dog.
Not the same or to the degree Tom trains, but back in the day I too trained dogs among other jobs and hobbies that involved dogs. The dog wasn't the problem as much as it was the owners.
Humans don't start most training until there's a problem or the dog is 4,5,6 months old other then potty training. Mother dogs start training from day one.
Good luck.
 

Violanna

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My best advice is throw out that ‘you can’t teach an old dog new tricks’!! ALL dogs need training and retraining and reminders EVERYDAY their whole life! Even the best dog. I spend at least 20 mins a day with each of my dogs working on training.

My lab/boxer is incredibly intelligent when it comes to rules but dense when it comes to boundaries. We have an invisible fence and even though he has dealt with it since we moved to this house, he still tries to cross the boundaries and get his reminder. So we regularly have to train him on it.

My German shorthair, not so smart. But she she picks up new tricks all the time and she is 5 years old.

There are many tools out there to help with any training situation you may have. Training chain collars for leash walking, electric collars for behavioral corrections and boundary training( you can usually get away with just the sound correct and never need the shock but some dogs are stubborn)

The real key is consistency, think of that puppy as a toddler, they will test you again and again to learn the rules. If they get away with it even once they will keep doing it. Tough love builds a great dog!
 

Tom

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@Tom for the possible safety of the dog, could you elaborate on the traditional training you mentioned. I think I know what you are talking about, I too believe in training collars if the situation calls for it. However, there have been some trainers out there and I'm sure still are out there, that believe in a training method that I would call abuse.
Just so some understand what the "traditional" you speak of.
Sure. When I speak of "traditional" dog training, I'm referring to the "old school" where you put a leash and an appropriate correction collar on the dog and then use a combination of appropriate leash corrections and praise to encourage the behavior you want and discourage the behavior you don't want. Which collar to use, and how hard to correct the dog varies tremendously. Likewise, when to praise, how to praise, and how much to praise, varies tremendously. This method has been in use for centuries and is very effective. Done correctly it creates a wonderful relationship between dog and handler. This method works exceptionally well when paired with other methods at the appropriate times in a dogs life. Again, I emphasize, I don't use one method or another. I employ many methods in infinite degrees and combinations.

For anyone who wants more study on this, look up the terms classical conditioning and operant conditioning. The best illustration of classical condition is Pavlov's dogs. Ring the bell, feed the dog. Pretty soon the dog associates the bell with food. This is equivalent, in training terms, to a young puppy learning that the trainer expressing "GOOD!" means petting, praise or food is coming. The newer style of "clicker" training takes advantage of the principals of classical conditioning.

Operant conditioning is much more complex and consists of two basic principals and four basic components:
  1. Principal #1: If a behavior is followed by a positive consequence, it is likely to occur again.
  2. Principal #2: If a behavior is followed by a negative consequence, it is likely to not occur again.
Examples: #1: If you approach me and I hand you a $100 bill and a box of your favorite candy, you are likely to approach me again the next time you see me. #2: If you approach me and I punch you in the nose, you are likely to try really hard to avoid me the next time you see me. Simple, right?
  1. Component #1: Positive reinforcement. Everyone is familiar with this term, but few really understand it as it pertains to animal training. For our purposes in this discussion, think of positive and negative in mathematical terms. Adding to, or taking away from. Positive reinforcement then is giving the animal something it wants. Example: Dog sits on command, and I throw a ball. I gave the dog something it wanted, a ball chase, and the dog then is likely to sit again as a result.
  2. Component #2: Negative reinforcement. In this one, I take away something the animal doesn't like. Herding is a good example. In Africa I had a great time herding a group of 11 giraffe form a distance of about 200 meters. I wanted them to move left so I took a few steps toward them (from 200 meters away...) and wiggled my right hand. When they complied, I backed away and kept my hand still. I took away something they didn't like (Me moving closer) to reinforce their behavior of moving to my left.
  3. Component #3: Positive punishment. This is giving the dog something it doesn't want to discourage a behavior. Easy example is a leash correction or Logan's swat to the snout for biting my tender vittles, which was reflexive in all honesty. Ouch.
  4. Component #4: Negative Punishment. Remember, mathematical positive and negative here. Negative punishment is taking away something the dog wants. When I have one of those rare extremely vicious cases where the dog is going to be euthanized if I don't fix it, I put the dog in a kennel and use negative punishment initially. I approach the dog and make it very obvious that I have a big bowl of yummy dog food in my hand. I approach from upwind and usually add chicken or bacon to a mix of kibble and canned food. As I approach the kennel I look for the dog's response. If the dog is aggressive and tries to lunge and bark aggressively at me, I simply turn and walk away. Negative punishment. I take away something the dog wants to discourage the bad behavior. If the dog remains calm and doesn't behave aggressively, I give it the yummy bowl of food. Positive reinforcement. I give it something it wants to encourage that good behavior to happen again. Works like a charm.

How to do this all correctly is an art form. Some people are the DaVinci's of dog training, and some people who call themselves trainers can't paint any better than a below average toddler. Lifetimes are spent learning and perfecting these techniques and principals. Some people are just naturally talented at these things and other people can't seem to "get it" even with the best coaches in the world helping them. This aspect of some people naturally understanding these subtleties, while other people can't seem to grasp even the broadest generalities of these concepts has been a source of fascination to me since I was a child.

Again, questions, comments and discussion are welcome. This is my career, profession, hobby and passion. The above paragraphs are literally how I earn my living. I'm on set getting paid for understanding and applying these concepts right now. :)
 

Violanna

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Danes tend to be buck wild and a little scary for about a year and a half, and then most of them settle down nicely and become wonderful family pets after that. Logan walked right up and confidently bit me in the... uhhh.... "crotch area" the day I met him. I smacked him good across the nose for that one and he promptly answered by biting my arm next. It was love at first sight. My kind of dog! Very playful, bold and outgoing, and not overly sensitive to corrections. Young Danes sometimes have a hard time taking "no" for an answer when they are wound up and want to play. A good trainer will show you how to get your point across effectively.D

My GSP is very similar! She loves to play rough, so we play fight all the time. However she knows my queues when I’m done, and I know her queues when she is done. She usually will set her paw on your hand and put her head on your chest for a hug and rub.

My lab though, he likes to pretend play like the whole boxer play stance and chasing. But he was abused as a puppy so he is scared to be bopped even if it’s affectionate.
 

Tom

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Training is 90% human problems and 10% dog.

I agree, but I'd go even further with the percentages. 99% to 1%. I frequently ask a struggling client: "If the leash was in my hands, would your dog be doing that?" They always answer, "No." I follow up with: "Its not the dog. Its the person holding the leash...", and continue with encouragement and more explanation of the concept we are working on at that moment.

I've had a few smart Alec client answer "yes", just so I'd take the leash and prove them wrong. Either way, we all have fun, and the dog's life improves as the owner understands more and more.
 

drew54

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Oh thank you @Tom! My wife and I would be going over all this information tonight and I'm sure we will have lots of questions. But in the mean time a little payment is due. [emoji16]

Before I post some photos I thought I would share some facts. I'm not a dog person mostly because I was attacked by to Doberman and a chow chow when I was younger. On top of that every dog I owned was killed when I was younger. Actually, almost every animal that I had was killed by someone. Circumstances vary ranging from straight murder to accidental. I find myself a lot getting very anxious when I'm and other people's dogs and when Bowser jumps on me and bites me. Most of the time I just freeze and tense up and other times I'm able to keep myself gathered and correct him. I'm also allergic to dogs and cats.

I've been working on this fear of mine for a free years. My wife is an avid dog lover as am for all animals, but I'm definitely far from a dog person. I mention this because I've cine a long way with dogs. I've put myself around them and I force myself to interact with them. Because I knew one day a dog was destined to be in my life's [emoji30]

I'm doing a lot better and i absolutely love Bowser even though he is an *** and eats socks all the time. I could lock them all in a safe and he would still find a way to get the socks.

So, I to the interesting facts. As bowser got bigger it occurred to me that he looks line Scooby doo. Soxi called him Scooby. He is also a scared of everything! Seriously everything, so I thought it was only fitting. Well my wife says "babe Scooby doo is a great Dane that's why her looks like him".

[emoji15] then it hit me and I also looked it up just to be sure. I had no idea that Scooby was a great Dane. Blows my mind. Anyway, here is the big guy.

IMG_0347.jpg the day we got him

IMG_0388.jpg his favorite place to sleep. Now he is much too big to sleep with my three year old. He tries but he just lays on my son's head and upper body. [emoji23] He is also the size of the bed.

IMG_0938.jpg him now he has gotten so big! He is such a baby though.

IMG_0940.jpg one of my favorite pictures. He was so excited to see my wife he wouldn't stop hugging her. And if she tries to get up when he is with her he bites and tugs on her shirt to keep her with him. Cute, but were trying to break that and his suckling on her hand.
I will post more when I get some. I will also keep updating his progress also. For now I have to get bank to work and then I should be able to go over everything with her and post questions. Thanks
 

CarolM

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Oh thank you @Tom! My wife and I would be going over all this information tonight and I'm sure we will have lots of questions. But in the mean time a little payment is due. [emoji16]

Before I post some photos I thought I would share some facts. I'm not a dog person mostly because I was attacked by to Doberman and a chow chow when I was younger. On top of that every dog I owned was killed when I was younger. Actually, almost every animal that I had was killed by someone. Circumstances vary ranging from straight murder to accidental. I find myself a lot getting very anxious when I'm and other people's dogs and when Bowser jumps on me and bites me. Most of the time I just freeze and tense up and other times I'm able to keep myself gathered and correct him. I'm also allergic to dogs and cats.

I've been working on this fear of mine for a free years. My wife is an avid dog lover as am for all animals, but I'm definitely far from a dog person. I mention this because I've cine a long way with dogs. I've put myself around them and I force myself to interact with them. Because I knew one day a dog was destined to be in my life's [emoji30]

I'm doing a lot better and i absolutely love Bowser even though he is an *** and eats socks all the time. I could lock them all in a safe and he would still find a way to get the socks.

So, I to the interesting facts. As bowser got bigger it occurred to me that he looks line Scooby doo. Soxi called him Scooby. He is also a scared of everything! Seriously everything, so I thought it was only fitting. Well my wife says "babe Scooby doo is a great Dane that's why her looks like him".

[emoji15] then it hit me and I also looked it up just to be sure. I had no idea that Scooby was a great Dane. Blows my mind. Anyway, here is the big guy.

View attachment 256581 the day we got him

View attachment 256584 his favorite place to sleep. Now he is much too big to sleep with my three year old. He tries but he just lays on my son's head and upper body. [emoji23] He is also the size of the bed.

View attachment 256587 him now he has gotten so big! He is such a baby though.

View attachment 256588 one of my favorite pictures. He was so excited to see my wife he wouldn't stop hugging her. And if she tries to get up when he is with her he bites and tugs on her shirt to keep her with him. Cute, but were trying to break that and his suckling on her hand.
I will post more when I get some. I will also keep updating his progress also. For now I have to get bank to work and then I should be able to go over everything with her and post questions. Thanks
Scooby looks gorgeous. Good luck with him.
 

wellington

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Your anxiety and fear is definitely going to work against you. It will send signals that there is a fear in you and in return tells the dog there is a reason too not trust you. Dogs can sense all kinds of things that we put off that we don't even know we are putting off.
Keep working on your fear and anxiety double time if you can. Remember if you don't fear him, he has no reason to fear and distrust you.
Beautiful dog.
 

Gillian M

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Your anxiety and fear is definitely going to work against you. It will send signals that there is a fear in you and in return tells the dog there is a reason too not trust you. Dogs can sense all kinds of things that we put off that we don't even know we are putting off.
Keep working on your fear and anxiety double time if you can. Remember if you don't fear him, he has no reason to fear and distrust you.
Beautiful dog.
That is so true, but one cannot help it.

I was thinking of a dog, before Oli came along, however people here scared me like mad: "He'd bite you, hurt you" and so on. Since then I've been scared to death of dogs and I just cannot overcome that fear.
 

drew54

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Your anxiety and fear is definitely going to work against you. It will send signals that there is a fear in you and in return tells the dog there is a reason too not trust you. Dogs can sense all kinds of things that we put off that we don't even know we are putting off.
Keep working on your fear and anxiety double time if you can. Remember if you don't fear him, he has no reason to fear and distrust you.
Beautiful dog.
Oh I love Bowser. I don't fear him. But there are times I do get anxious, but i quickly recover and correct him. I'm quite proud of myself in this area. My wife notices a huge improvement as well. Bowser is just a pup and I understand his behaviors are due to his lack of understanding and just being a pup in general. I also understand the difficulty and the high expectations we set for these animals. He has to learn or Leesburg and he has to learn to be civil. All human behaviors and far from his instincts. I guess I have those oh crap moments where it's not so much fear as it is a reality check. I am working double time on this as I love his floppy ears and his uber amount of slobber that covers my face and even though he won't quit trying to eat everything and everyone. Lol
 

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