speedyTortoise
Active Member
Hey everyone, happy Thanksgiving! I have a question about UV lamps for my Russian tortoise. Is there any alternative I could use for a tube? Maybe a bulb you can put in a hood?
Alternative to a 10.0 UV tube?
- Thread starter speedyTortoise
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There are bulbs. But none are recommended because they don't broadcast UVB effectively and have other serious potential risks.
In general. Avoid ANY UVB source with a "scew in" fitting.
You want a linear tube T5 or one if the newer LED UVB. But I have no experience with them so far. But I do plan on upgrading my Chameleons soon to them.
In general. Avoid ANY UVB source with a "scew in" fitting.
You want a linear tube T5 or one if the newer LED UVB. But I have no experience with them so far. But I do plan on upgrading my Chameleons soon to them.
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No, there isn't. The coil ones can harm the eyes and give off almost zero UV. The mercury vapor bulbs are too harsh on the shell and give off poor UV.
What's your reason for not wanting to use the tube florescent?
What's your reason for not wanting to use the tube florescent?
No. The alternatives are not effective for a variety of reasons, and sometimes dangerous.
ZooMed has a new-ish LED UV light bar. I've been using that and it seems to work well. I run it next to the heat lamp. It appears that some of the new screw-in type LED UV bulbs produce too narrow a spectrum of light and UV and the tortoises don't seem to understand when to get out from under it because so much of the light spectrum is missing. I think the ZooMed unit solves this problem because it has many other light diodes in addition to the diodes producing the needed UVB of the correct spectrum. These bulbs are expensive and you'll have to figure out how to mount them horizontally, but as far as I can tell, they meet the UV needs and are not dangerous when mounted correctly at the correct height.
speedyTortoise
Active Member
First, it costs a lot of money to buy it and is a pretty big investment. Second, it would be significantly harder to hang over my torts enclosure. Also, I just wanted to see what other options I had.
speedyTortoise
Active Member
Could you please post the link to the light bar that you're using?
speedyTortoise
Active Member
Do some tortoises do better under coil and mercury vapor bulbs than others? I'm asking because a friend of mine has been using coil ones for years, and his tortoise is healthy and doesn't have any damage to his eyes.
No. Your friend is making a mistake. Its not a question of how they do. Its because of the physics involved with each of those type of bulbs.
Cfl typ bulbs sometimes burn their eyes. Not all of them do this, but some of them do this. If you friend keeps using them, he is likely to get a bad one eventually. Some say this is an old problem from when these bulbs first came out and it has been fixed. That is not correct. The problem still exists and my reptile vet friends regularly see cases of photokeratitis from these bulbs. In addition, as if you needed more reason to not use them, the make very little UVB and in a small area, so they are not effective. Your friend likely gets his tortoise out in the sun from time to time, and/or uses a calcium supplement with D3 or Mazuri, or ZooMed pellets which all have D3.
MVBs cause pyramiding even in a humid closed chamber because of the way they make heat and light. They also run too hot for any closed chamber. Also, some of them make WAYYY too much UV, and some of them make no UV at all after a short period of time, even though the bulbs still light up. They are also expensive, delicate and finicky about what hood you can use them in. The wrong hood will make them over heat and they have a time-delay built in to them before they can re-light. They can be used in some situations for full grown small tortoises, like Russians where pyramiding isn't really a concern since they are done growing for the most part, that are housed in open topped tortoise tables, but they need to be monitored weekly with a Solarmeter 6.5 to see what the UV is doing.
Do you have a UV meter?
When mounted at correct height and used with a meter, CFL from the 'name brand' manufacturers (eg Zoo Med, Arcadia, etc) are no more dangerous than the T5HO from the same manufacturers. The bigger problem with the CFL with tortoises is the coverage/size of the basking area.
Alex and the Redfoot
Well-Known Member
@jaizei I'm afraid to open a can of worms here, but maybe you can point me to some threads on CFL with measurements and such? I've found only older general discussions so far and plans to make a research of "evil lamps" samples, but haven't seen any results of the research.
There isn't any, and that is why we keep having this argument over and over. I've seen this in person several times and the vets I work with tell me they see it from time to time, but there is no scientific research done on it. Who would pay for and conduct such a study. There is no money in that.
Jaizei and a couple other experienced members here have not seen it as much or at all, so they make statements like what he said in post #9. I disagree, but I'm frankly sick of arguing about it.
Alex and the Redfoot
Well-Known Member
Yes, arguing is exactly the thing I'm trying to avoid here. Even anecdotal recent evidence was enough for me to switch to T5.
I have seen great threads with radiograms here on metal-hallide lamps and IR deep heat projectors and was hoping to find something alike on CFLs.
I have seen great threads with radiograms here on metal-hallide lamps and IR deep heat projectors and was hoping to find something alike on CFLs.
It's not a can of worms to those interested in knowledge.
There isn't any follow up because those that claim that CFL are bad by design haven't found anything to prove what they're saying. Despite looking for it for a decade plus. First it was claims of bad stock lingering on shelves. But as the years piled done and that was not really a valid explanation anymore, they ultimately shifted to 'better safe than sorry' and 'why risk it'.
The problems with CFL was not limited to CFL. There were fluorescent tubes with the exact same problem at the same time. There are 'generic' tubes sold today with the same problem. Some of the cheap LEDs sold today, if they actually produce UVB, can have the same problem. The UVB halogens, if they actually produce UVB light (unlikely), can have the same problem.
I am unaware of anyone that does extensive testing of UVB lamps, (ie with spectrometers, etc) that would agree with the sentiment that CFL are unsafe for the ambiguous, unspecified reasons people on this forum believe. Those that say CFL are irredeemably bad are in the minority when it comes to serious discussions of UVB lighting. If they're included at all.
UVB is not a topic that can easily be distilled down to 'this bulb good, that bulb bad'. While you were looking in old threads, notice all those that were proclaiming MVB to be the best UVB bulbs? 'Only bulb you need'. How'd that age. Considering where we are, and whats being said now, it appears that no actual lessons were learned.
Actually the research & testing done on UVB bulbs supports what I said. CFL are not bad by design, and can be used safely in the appropriate situations.
Seeing how you and your vet friends are the only ones seeing this, and you were challenged like 10 years ago with sending one of these bad (name brand) bulbs to someone with the equipment to test it, maybe you could do that.
No! I already said, coil can hurt their eyes and mercury is too harsh on them and both gives poor UV.
Like most animals, tortoises are not cheap. Rehome him if you can't afford to keep him properly.
What kind of enclosure do you have? Any proper sized enclosure should not be hard to rig a tube light.
Totally agree with this. We do still see tortoises with eye problems and most of those people are using the coil bulbs. Never seen anyone with a tube florescent that has had problems needing to change the tube to correct the eye issue. Tom works with many many different kinds of animals and with that comes a lot of working with vets.
The cheap way, if that's your concern, is to rehome the tort
Alex and the Redfoot
Well-Known Member
Please, let's stay away from "pay or rehome" statements.
In fact, I've checked the Amazon and don't see huge price difference between CFL and T5HO lamps made by Arcadia. The fixture itself is pricey but compatible fixtures should be available at hardware stores. And for the 5-10 years perspective it's not that much anyway.
The second thing, I can't make any advice on mounting CFLs the safe and effective way - height, horizontal or vertical, what fixture to use.
OP, you can try to go with CFL and copy your friends setup. But there is no warranty that it works for you the way it should. Any low-quality or wrong mounted UVB source will do the harm. I feel, that with T5 it's just easier to do things right.
In fact, I've checked the Amazon and don't see huge price difference between CFL and T5HO lamps made by Arcadia. The fixture itself is pricey but compatible fixtures should be available at hardware stores. And for the 5-10 years perspective it's not that much anyway.
The second thing, I can't make any advice on mounting CFLs the safe and effective way - height, horizontal or vertical, what fixture to use.
OP, you can try to go with CFL and copy your friends setup. But there is no warranty that it works for you the way it should. Any low-quality or wrong mounted UVB source will do the harm. I feel, that with T5 it's just easier to do things right.
This all sounds nice, but essentially you are calling me a liar. As I said the last time we argued about this, no one is saving the bad bulbs, and vets have better things to do than chasing down customers to make Jaizei on the tortoise forum happy. You just aren't that important and your unfounded opinions do not negate what I and others have seen first hand.
I completely agree with @jaizei I also feel this is one thing that keeps many very serious, scientific-based keepers from using this forum.
The research has certainly been done. Read through the forum Reptile Lighting. Several of the contributors there do have the extremely expensive spectrometers and equipment to thoroughly test bulbs and do so regularly. They were actually the first to really call manufacturers on the problems with CFL and other faulty bulbs (it was not limited to CFLs) and push to get changes. Extensive testing has been done and is done constantly and no one has produced a faulty CFL bulb from a brand manufacturer in over 10 years. Not one.
I have watched this forum for over 7 years now for a post on eye damage from a CFL and have not found one that turned out to be shown to be the CFL. I see many that immediately assume that as soon as CFL is mentioned. Far more eye damage posts were due to MVBs and even tubes that were placed wrong. With UVB use, it is too easy to mount any bulb too close, especially CFLs that appear dimmer and cooler, and then jump to the conclusion that there is a problem with the bulb if it is a CFL, yet not come to the same conclusion if it is a tube!
How many issues have been missed because as soon as anyone mentions a CFL immediatley there is an outpouring of how bad they are and no further looking into what the real problem may be is done! Yet this forum continues to simply parrot the CFLs are simply bad mantra.
The research has certainly been done. Read through the forum Reptile Lighting. Several of the contributors there do have the extremely expensive spectrometers and equipment to thoroughly test bulbs and do so regularly. They were actually the first to really call manufacturers on the problems with CFL and other faulty bulbs (it was not limited to CFLs) and push to get changes. Extensive testing has been done and is done constantly and no one has produced a faulty CFL bulb from a brand manufacturer in over 10 years. Not one.
I have watched this forum for over 7 years now for a post on eye damage from a CFL and have not found one that turned out to be shown to be the CFL. I see many that immediately assume that as soon as CFL is mentioned. Far more eye damage posts were due to MVBs and even tubes that were placed wrong. With UVB use, it is too easy to mount any bulb too close, especially CFLs that appear dimmer and cooler, and then jump to the conclusion that there is a problem with the bulb if it is a CFL, yet not come to the same conclusion if it is a tube!
How many issues have been missed because as soon as anyone mentions a CFL immediatley there is an outpouring of how bad they are and no further looking into what the real problem may be is done! Yet this forum continues to simply parrot the CFLs are simply bad mantra.
Many, many who eyes have improved once they stopped using the cfl! Don't remember any eye problems from tube or mvb unless placed to close.
Many want the cheapest possible and buy cheap cfl and are likely still getting the bad bulbs from places that have not pulled them.
Many hang them wrong which does cause problems.
Maybe you or Jaizei could do an experiment with them?
No, don't need to stay away from "pay or rehome". If one can't afford, then rehoming should be done. It's a living thing, not a piece of furniture!!
