Best Breeder Burmese Star

[Tom]

My speculation is too dry (even with 85-90% humidity in the sphagnum moss) and the eyes have been affected and she's had some mucus discharge from her mouth (did it yesterday as well), and seems constipated.

I have the 10.0 bulb 10 inches above tort level (which shouldn't be an issue) but am flummoxed as to what to do.

All my years of tort work never had anything like this before with adults or dozens of hatchlings.

Any thoughts?

Here are the most commonly encountered causes of eye issues that I've seen:

1. Dry, dusty substrate.
2. Overly dry conditions, like what an indoor tortoise in an open table would likely encounter. This happens outdoors too.
3. Sand in any quantity or mixture. Its a possible skin and eye irritant.
4. CFL type UV bulbs. Some of them, not all of them, burn reptile eyes.
5. Mechanical injury. I've seen this with cypress mulch poking them, and with long fibered sphagnum moss getting in the eyes.
6. Injury from another tortoise. Most commonly when they are kept as a pair.

As a side note about the constipation, I've never been able to keep sphagnum moss in any of my enclosures. All hatchlings of all the species I've ever raised try to eat it. I don't know what I'm doing differently than other people but russians, CDTs, sulcatas, both types of leopards, stars and pancakes all tried to eat it. I didn't try it with my platynota, but I have no doubt what would have happened if I had.

Any of these things a possibility? Can we eliminate some or all of these as possibilities and begin looking elsewhere?

 

[Ernie Johnson]

Tom,

1. no, was moist coconut fiber with cypress mulch cover.
2. 40-50% at times at night - 60-75% during the day, 70-90% in/under the spaghnum moss (This is my speculation along with another point)
3. No sand
4. ZooMed 10.0 UVB bulb and 60 watt heat emitter (my speculation is at 9 inches above tort level was too close and caused serious eye irritation. Never had this with little Russian's, but maybe Burm can't handle that level of UVB/UVA (have increased the height to 18 inches.
5. Not likely, but a possibility
6. They're both under 40 grams, so not likely and the male is perfectly fine.


My speculation, eye burn and too low an ambient humidity. Fixed both and have order a xl tub which will allow for an enclosed environment.

Thanks

Ernie

 

[Ernie Johnson]

Consuming SMoss a possibility and plan to look at alternatives to keep humidity up in hide area.

 

[Ernie Johnson]

Tom,

Excellent points!

Let me digest and apply what seems to me to be a simple failing.

Never had a single issue with Berlandiers, Redfoot's Russians, or Greeks, but it seems Burms are a different matter all together.

Good to learn it now. :

thanks

Ernie

 

[Ernie Johnson]

I've always been a big believer in higher humidity for the hatchling to 2-3 year old torts for any species, for no other reason than their size relative to the environments they live in dictate it. The only variant in my mind was the level of humidity in the surrounding environment beyond where they spend 23 out or 24 hours a days.

Berlandiers have burrows of 70-80% humidity and venture out into 20-40% humidity for hours to feed and mate. Russian's much the same, but from a much harsher environment. Redfoot's live in 75-90% humidity all the time, the only variant being muted sunlight forest or direct sunlight Savannah on the occasions they venture out of the forest..

Haven't been able to get a solid read on the Burm environment as they come from two areas in Myanmar and they are somewhat different, with one highly xeric and one quite not so much.

I wonder if breeders know which discreet area their Burms bloodlines are from as that may dictate behavior and adaptability to heat/humidity/food types.

Russian's seem to have 3 variants of the species and there are slight differences in how they handle temperature in particular. I have all three variants in my breeding group, so seeing it first hand is interesting.

Seems raising Burms in a Redfoot setup (for the first 2-3 years at least) is the way to go, based on the experience of long term breeder.

Thanks

Ernie

 

[Ernie Johnson]

Tom,

Simple question. What type of timer do you use on your misting system in your enclosed pens in order to have it run, say for 2-3 minutes per hour or every two hours?

Thanks

Ernie

 

[Tom]

Seems raising Burms in a Redfoot setup (for the first 2-3 years at least) is the way to go, based on the experience of long term breeder.

10.0 tubes make very weak levels of UV, so says my UV meter. A reading of 1.0-1.1 at 9-10" from the meter, so I doubt that was your issue. Further, when its UV troubles, it would usually be both eyes and both tortoises.

Set up would be similar to a red foot, but the burns need a basking area to get hot. I see most RF keepers recommending against bright light and hot basking areas, but I'll defer to those with more experience than me when it comes to RFs.

 

[Tom]

Tom,

Simple question. What type of timer do you use on your misting system in your enclosed pens in order to have it run, say for 2-3 minutes per hour or every two hours?

Thanks

Ernie

I don't run misters or humidifiers in my closed chambers. No need for them. It stays 80-90% in there with just damp substrate, and 100% in the humid hides.

 

[Ernie Johnson]

Then it must be a case of too dry. Eyes aren't open again today, with higher humidity and soaks, but she moves around so needs time to heal.

Will lower the heat emitter to drive up the temp as well.

Just odd since up until Friday she'd been fine and doing great.

Male is doing great, no issues.

Herp vet visit on Saturday had her come up clean, no blockage, no respiratory issues and she was very active on the trip to and from teh vet (45 minutes) and while there.

Yes, RF's should not have bright light as they're a tropical forest tort, although many people seem to think they spend all manner of time in the Savannah and bright sunshine.

Thanks again for the insight.

 

[Ernie Johnson]

I don't run misters or humidifiers in my closed chambers. No need for them. It stays 80-90% in there with just damp substrate, and 100% in the humid hides.

Interesting.

I used a closed pen for years for my now Adult Redfoot's when we lived in greater Minneapolis and was able to keep it 60-80% humid too with no misting, just dumping the water bowl into the substrate every other day and let the 2, 100watt heat emitters drive the humidity up ant tort level.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

With this interest here and a high readership thread I'd like to ask...

Can some of you folks that have bred them and held back suggest what accuracy of TSD you have found? If someone is saying these are TSF and they are a credible person, what is the break down, 80:20 they are female? 95:5? At what size do you decide if it worked or it is an individual of the opposite sex from the dialed in temp (desired sex)?

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

With this interest here and a high readership thread I'd like to ask...

Can some of you folks that have bred them and held back suggest what accuracy of TSD you have found? If someone is saying these are TSF and they are a credible person, what is the break down, 80:20 they are female? 95:5? At what size do you decide if it worked or it is an individual of the opposite sex from the dialed in temp (desired sex)?

I was hoping for a post like this...

"2012 I had 23 eggs hatch , some incubated for males some incubated for females. I held back four 'females' all are indeed females."

I don't think that is too complicated, maybe five years is not long enough? Whatcha-all doing?

 

[Shaif]

I was hoping for a post like this...

"2012 I had 23 eggs hatch , some incubated for males some incubated for females. I held back four 'females' all are indeed females."

I don't think that is too complicated, maybe five years is not long enough? Whatcha-all doing?

I’ll “bump” this question because I’m interested too. Are the odds as bad as 50:50?

I put a deposit down for a baby from a February clutch. Have asked for a TSM, because I read that they are sometimes friendlier/less shy.
I’ll be happy either way, of course, but I’m painting the room blue.

S.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

I’ll “bump” this question because I’m interested too. Are the odds as bad as 50:50?

I put a deposit down for a baby from a February clutch. Have asked for a TSM, because I read that they are sometimes friendlier/less shy.
I’ll be happy either way, of course, but I’m painting the room blue.

S.

Thank you. Blue is a good room color. LOL

I spoke with a long term breeder and he broke it down like this

Females: if incubated at least 87 or higher and eggs hatched in about 90 days or less once incubation commences.
Males: if incubated at 85 or less and incubation takes 110 days or more.

Everything in between is a toss-up. Incubation days start when placed in the incubator AFTER diapause condition is met.

 

[Tom]

I’ll “bump” this question because I’m interested too. Are the odds as bad as 50:50?

I put a deposit down for a baby from a February clutch. Have asked for a TSM, because I read that they are sometimes friendlier/less shy.
I’ll be happy either way, of course, but I’m painting the room blue.

S.

I have platynota from four different sellers. All of them were incubated for female. I'm at 50:50 from each and every breeder. Either this is an amazing coincidence, or its not a coincidence at all...

 

[Ernie Johnson]

I wonder if the diapause for Burms is a mitigating factor vs. other torts. All of the Redfoot eggs I incubated for Females in 2010 and 2011 have turned out to be females. Tyler Brooks on this forum has 9 of my 2011's. Since then I've stuck with 84-85 degrees to get a mix. Not a big data set, but. . . .

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Hi @Ernie Johnson ,

I think you have a strong point about diapause being a bit of a mitigating factor. Otherwise there would not be so much doubt about TSF and TSM in radiateds or for the matter P. planicauda.

Most of this could be cleared up with better incubation records and a meta data analysis, but I don't see that happening. Further complications arise when folks do a more 'natural' type incubation with day/night fluctuations of a few degrees. Even folks who do keep good data sets - that data is suspect just because of the horrible variability in temperature monitoring devices. I can line up many of any given temp monitoring device and get a range as high as 20F difference, let alone the critical few degrees attributed to TSD.

But back to Burms @Tom did any of those four breeders share the specific incubation protocol? Not by name, of course, but do share please the protocol and the result you are finding.

 

[Markw84]

@Will The closest to a really good study I have seen on G platynota had the results of:
28.9°C produced 9 males and 1 female
30.0°C produced 14 males and 13 females
Young were endoscopically sexed to determine sex.

In the same incubators at the same time A radiata had results of
28.9°C produced 1:11.5 male/female ratio
30.0°C produced 100% female

This study suggests the pivot temperature and therefore the transitional range is lower than what I hear most people are using. Perhaps there is a high reversal in sex produced as in some chelonians where males are produced at the low range AND the high range???

 

[HermanniChris]

Just wanted to jump in on this really quick to add some info to it.

The following pair were born here. Female on the left, male on the right. Female was incubated in an Avey Rept100 at 90.8F hatched at 89 days. Confirmed female. Male was incubated at 84.6F in a Little Giant Hovobator at 84.6F and hatched at 101 days. I have another 0.2 held back that turned out as such when incubated under the same conditions.

 

[Tom]

But back to Burms @Tom did any of those four breeders share the specific incubation protocol? Not by name, of course, but do share please the protocol and the result you are finding.

I did not press for specifics, but I was told all were incubated on the higher end for female. No one mentioned any day to night variation, and I didn't get details on diapause either. 3 of the four are on this forum, so I will privately invite them to join this thread and share heir details. I will text the fourth.