Big Bertha Doing Great

[ZEROPILOT]

She was out of her house and standing in the middle of her pen this morning at 3:30 am

 

[Anyfoot]

Would my antibiotics maybe kill a gut borne bug?
I'm hoping that it was a miracle cure.
I'm hoping that the shot gun method did what ever was needed.

I'm hoping for the same.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

She usually climbs into her pond in the afternoon. I asked my wife to check it later and drop the hose in and flush it out if she sees poop.
She's not like pooping here and there, it's more like a trickle that is everywhere.
Pretty nasty and hard to keep clean. Yesterday was a little better. A little firmer.
The photo is Bertha the day she came home to me. The next day I first noticed that she wasn't eating.
It's been a year maybe.

 

[Pearly]

It does feel as though my vet has a hit and miss approach, but she is still the best one I have found.
I O.K.ed any and every type of test to be done and there is still no diagnosis. Antibiotics for an infection not found, etc.
There IS the troubling matter of what was/is her original illness?
One day she stopped eating and didn't eat for over three months....She got a feeding tube and then began eating on her own again. Then had a major issue and almost died? What was that? Now she is crawling back to the point that she was originally at.....Certainly no better and nothing has ever been found to be wrong. No X ray. No blood test. No fecal test. No test has found anything. She has had test after test after test. Nothing is abnormal.
Maybe I do need another vet. I've used one in Marathon three hours to the south and in West Palm an hour north. This one is only 30 minutes away. Most "exotics" are clearly guessing when it comes to tortoises. At least this vet HAS a tortoise!
Yes, at this point, I've spent several thousand dollars on her care. She is not better at all. It seems like we should be a little bit further along than this.
Thanks for letting me vent.

I totally sympathize with you! Unless tests other than ones mentioned in this thread have been done, I have to say that plain xray, blood/stool analysis is very basic. There is a very wide array of imaging studies available but with the higher level of sophistication comes the increased cost. I think the answer is somewhere there but one needs to ask himself a question "how far do I want to go with this?" Now, if your gut tells you that Bertha is hiding something that's treatable and your confidence in your vet has weakened, get another vet. How about finding veterinary medicine school in your area and go there? Or, Miami ZOO, I'm sure they have reptile vets there. Or, if you look at Bertha and your heart breaks by asking yourself "am I doing the right thing by putting her through all this?" ... maybe it's time to finish the antibiotic, keep offering good food and soaks, add probiotic and just love her! And hope for the best while preparing for the worst. It would be very helpful to have that differential diagnosis and prognosis but it sounds like the vet is pretty much clueless there. We often face this dilemma in human medicine as well and there are times when people who are faced with life altering illness choose palliative care and that is ok, too. All living things die at some point. Act of dying is a part of our existence in this Universe just like an act of birth. I just want to let you know that I truly admire your commitment to Bertha and I'm right there with you (in heart) whatever happens next. P.s. West Palm Beach has a ZOO, I wonder if they may have a good reptile vet. I think at this point I wouldn't waste time/money going to private vet clinics unless you know for sure the vet is VERY experienced with torts. I'd go with either teaching facility or a ZOO. Hang in there, and please, "vent" any time

 

[Pearly]

Would my antibiotics maybe kill a gut borne bug?
I'm hoping that it was a miracle cure.
I'm hoping that the shot gun method did what ever was needed.

Depending on a "bug". Stool culture would determine presence or overgrowth of bacteria and sensitivity to antibiotics. I think you did mention that stool was tested? Am I correct on it?

 

[Pearly]

Depending on a "bug". Stool culture would determine presence or overgrowth of bacteria and sensitivity to antibiotics. I think you did mention that stool was tested? Am I correct on it?

Also on stool test, there a couple of basic most commonly done stool tests: blood occult (check for presence of blood either fresh or digested), ova and parasites (checking for intestinal parasites), WBC's (white blood cells) and c&s (culture and sensitivity which determines presence/overgrowth of bacteria and matches this organism with appropriate antibiotic). Is it what has been done on Bertha?

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I've had so many tests done. I requested "Any and all" that was available.
I only recall two stool tests as there has been so little of it to actually test.

 

[Pearly]

It doesn't take that much poo to run all that testing. If you gave the vet "card blanche" to test for everything I'd assume she'd done the ones I had mentioned before.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I'm pretty sure that she has. I have a stack of itemized bills I will go through. The problem is I didn't always get an itemized bill. Sometimes just a receipt.
She had very young and very unprofessional kids manning the counter.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

The main thing was and still is...Even if she dies or I have to have her put down....IS SHE CONTAGIOUS?
I don't want this to happen six more times.
My yard isn't that huge and It's hard to keep everything sterile and separate.

 

[Angel Carrion]

That is a major concern. Is there any way to try and 'catch' the runny poo water so as to prevent it from seeping into the soil and working its way to your other enclosures? If this is contagious and can be passed my bodily waste/fluids, runny poo water is a bad bad thing if it spreads into the soil

 

[ZEROPILOT]

That is a major concern. Is there any way to try and 'catch' the runny poo water so as to prevent it from seeping into the soil and working its way to your other enclosures? If this is contagious and can be passed my bodily waste/fluids, runny poo water is a bad bad thing if it spreads into the soil

It would take a small Tsunami to wash it to the other pens. I'm more worried about garden tools and tracking poo on my shoes back and forth..
The one thing that eases my mind about THAT is that her sister, who lived with her for at least eight years and was with her when I got them together is still fine. She is as active as a little mule......And so are the other four living with her.
So it stands to reason that if it was/is a virus and the others were exposed to it, but didn't succumb, That maybe Bertha was just weak. Now she might be stronger and can fight it off or with any luck, the antibiotics knocked it off.
I'm just imagining....

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

It would take a small Tsunami to wash it to the other pens. I'm more worried about garden tools and tracking poo on my shoes back and forth..
The one thing that eases my mind about THAT is that her sister, who lived with her for at least eight years and was with her when I got them together is still fine. She is as active as a little mule......And so are the other four living with her.
So it stands to reason that if it was/is a virus and the others were exposed to it, but didn't succumb, That maybe Bertha was just weak. Now she might be stronger and can fight it off or with any luck, the antibiotics knocked it off.
I'm just imagining....

That's the way I'd think (and certainly hope) too.
The others may have an immunity that Bertha didn't, the illness may be more physiological or genetic than pathogenic or Bertha may just be weaker , the runt of the litter' so to speak.
Sorry, I meant Queen Bertha.

 

[Angel Carrion]

It would take a small Tsunami to wash it to the other pens. I'm more worried about garden tools and tracking poo on my shoes back and forth..
The one thing that eases my mind about THAT is that her sister, who lived with her for at least eight years and was with her when I got them together is still fine. She is as active as a little mule......And so are the other four living with her.
So it stands to reason that if it was/is a virus and the others were exposed to it, but didn't succumb, That maybe Bertha was just weak. Now she might be stronger and can fight it off or with any luck, the antibiotics knocked it off.
I'm just imagining....

Small wonders, I guess. Thankfully the sister is safe and healthy. So many it is not contagious....

 

[ZEROPILOT]

That's the way I'd think (and certainly hope) too.
The others may have an immunity that Bertha didn't, the illness may be more physiological or genetic than pathogenic or Bertha may just be weaker , the runt of the litter' so to speak.
Sorry, I meant Queen Bertha.

I've been so sloppy in my quarantine and separate bowls and different tools, It would stand to reason that they SHOULD ALL be ill.
So that is the best theory that I have. Bertha has a yet UNdetected, UNdiagnosed internal PHYSICAL issue. Or a mild virus that a healthier tortoise could have dealt with.
What do you think?

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

I've been so sloppy in my quarantine and separate bowls and different tools, It would stand to reason that they SHOULD ALL be ill.
So that is the best theory that I have. Bertha has a yet UNdetected, UNdiagnosed internal PHYSICAL issue. Or a mild virus that a healthier tortoise could have dealt with.
What do you think?

Well you know me, Ed, I read a lot, but ultimately rely on gut instinct a lot too.
I'm absolutely no expert and have no personal experience of either redfoots or what Bertha has been through, but I tend to agree.
If and when Queen Bertha gets through this, I would wait a bit and then reintroduce her.
I too suspect a physical problem at least underlying any later infection and I'm sure the others would have got it by now.
Maybe they have ( but I think not) and the symptoms are not yet showing or they're more resistant and will never get sick.
Just my opinion for what it's worth.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I've already mad the decision that even if Queen B gets better, she will live alone. I don't want her ever getting any stress again of any kind.

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

I've already mad the decision that even if Queen B gets better, she will live alone. I don't want her ever getting any stress again of any kind.

OK, i get that, but I wouldn't be overly concerned about cross-contamination on a speck of mud or something.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

OK, i get that, but I wouldn't be overly concerned about cross-contamination on a speck of mud or something.

It must be obvious by now. I worry about it ALL.
Thanks.

 

[tortadise]

Have you had a PCR done on TINC (intranuclear coccidiosis) yet? I've dealt with that before, and it's one of the worst things imaginable. It reaffirmed why I quarantine. It's highly contagious and lives in the soil. This sounds exactly like what a leopard tortoise that came here had. I strongly recommend that. Tests are done through UFL.