Concerned (pyramiding?)

KronksMom

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The new substrate will make it easier to keep the overall humidity levels better. He'll also, hopefully, figure out that he can burrow down into it. Once he realizes that, he'll be into it. But tortoises donor like change, even when it's good change. It'll just take him a little time to adjust.
 

Sarah_sinc

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The new substrate will make it easier to keep the overall humidity levels better. He'll also, hopefully, figure out that he can burrow down into it. Once he realizes that, he'll be into it. But tortoises donor like change, even when it's good change. It'll just take him a little time to adjust.

O gosh I know! He always hates me Changing the substrate because I get rid of his little holes he likes to create and sit in lol!

Does anyone have any links to better light bulbs too if possible? I'd hate to get the wrong ones and think I'm making improvements
 

Tom

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Hi sarah_sinc, I have a small Herman’s and use coco coir, I see below someone said to pat down the coco coir, just be careful as patting it down might stop him from digging. You want it a little fluffy on the top. Also, be a little careful with soaking the whole enclosure regularly because if your tort is constantly damp he might develop shell rot. You want to aim for one end being dry and cool, one end warm and damp so that he can choose between the two. I keep the humidity up on the warm end by spraying a couple times a day (whenever it looks super dry on the top) -maybe try it and see what you think it definitely works for my tort. I check the substrate every day and only soak it when it needs it (which is hardly ever maybe once a week) and also have attached some sponges out of reach that I wet. They’ve worked really well. I also have the same bridge made out of sticks as you have in your picture which my tort absolutely loves, if you put this in the warm humid area it will encourage him to dig underneath it.
One other thing is that pyramiding can also be caused by over feeding and lack of calcium. So I would recommend keeping an eye on how much you feed him, portions should be roughly the size of his shell and you know if you’re over feeding if he leaves any. You can add some cuttlefish into his enclosure to help with calcium intake, it also helps trim their beaks. Hope this helps.
I don't agree with most of your post.

Leaving the coco coir fluffy is very messy. They can dig into packed coir just fine any time they want.

This species doesn't get shell rot. That is redfoot or yellow foot tortoises. The substrate shouldn't be wet all the time, but damp is fine. I've raised hundreds of hatchings of several species on damp substrate. Not one case of shell rot. Testudo like to dig past the drier layers of substrate at the surface into the more damp layers below. This is the same thing they do in the wild to create their own little humid microclimate.

There are many reasons why a tortoise might choose to park on one end or the other. Giving them a choice of the right or wrong conditions, might end up with them choosing the wrong conditions for reasons we will never understand. I give my outdoor tortoises a warm heated night box. Sometimes they choose to go park under a bush or in a corner when night temps will drop to the 30s. Should I let them choose? Do they know best? I think not. I put them in their warm houses every night if they aren't already in there on their own.

Pyramiding is NOT caused by over feeding or lack of calcium. You are parroting old incorrect information that someone else parroted from someone else. This is exactly how wrong and bad info spreads. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. Tortoises are grazers. They need access to food all day and should be able to graze on the right foods all day. Likewise, calcium intake is important for tortoises, but a lack of it doesn't cause pyramiding. An abundance of it doesn't prevent pyramiding. You can rate a tortoise with the perfect amount of the best foods possible and if conditions are dry, it will pyramid. Likewise, you can raise a tortoise on an overabundance of the wrongs foods, and if conditions are correct, it will grow totally smooth. I know this because I've seen many many examples of both all over the country and all over the world.

We know these things from decades of trial and error, experimentation, consultation with other experimenters, and have raised hundreds and hundreds of babies into adulthood with all this info. You are reading old wrong stuff and perpetuating the old wrong stuff by repeating it here. I have no doubt you mean well and intended to help, but repeating incorrect info doesn't help anyone.
 

Tom

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At the moment I feel like a terrible owner
I researched so much before getting him and now I feel I have failed. I'm so glad I have found this forum to be able to tweek little areas to perfect his care
The world is full of the wrong info when it comes to tortoises. This is not your fault. You should feel great about yourself for continually trying to do your best for your tortoise. Almost all of us started with the wrong info, myself included. What makes us good keepers is willingness to continually learn and try to do better.

About your weeds... Collect samples and take them to a local nursery. There is always a local plant nerd, or several, that can help you ID everything. Put each sample in a separate container and bring a pen and some tape to label them as the whiz explains each one. You won't remember them 5 minutes later. Ask me how I know this...
 

Sarah_sinc

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The world is full of the wrong info when it comes to tortoises. This is not your fault. You should feel great about yourself for continually trying to do your best for your tortoise. Almost all of us started with the wrong info, myself included. What makes us good keepers is willingness to continually learn and try to do better.

About your weeds... Collect samples and take them to a local nursery. There is always a local plant nerd, or several, that can help you ID everything. Put each sample in a separate container and bring a pen and some tape to label them as the whiz explains each one. You won't remember them 5 minutes later. Ask me how I know this...

Thank you tom. I agree i did have the wrong information in the start and wish I found this forum a few months ago! I just hope he will be ok and I am doing enough improvements to make him a healthy little boy!
I've put the new substrate in the viv and the glass is misty? I don't have aids to test the humidity yet i hope it's ok
 

Maggie3fan

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@sarah-sinc...I know my tortoises are bigger then yours but their example goes right along with what Tom said...this is Knobby...a badly pyramided rescue...I've had him for 3 yrs and all his new growth is smooth...
100_3979.JPG
kept in the same shed as Knobby is a 50+lb 8 yr old Sulcata Big Sam...he was completely smooth and beautiful when he was put away for the winter last October...had UVB bulbs...ambient heat...running humidifier...look what happened to Sam despite my best efforts100_3976.JPG100_3977.JPG...
 

Sarah_sinc

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O my look
@sarah-sinc...I know my tortoises are bigger then yours but their example goes right along with what Tom said...this is Knobby...a badly pyramided rescue...I've had him for 3 yrs and all his new growth is smooth...
View attachment 296592
kept in the same shed as Knobby is a 50+lb 8 yr old Sulcata Big Sam...he was completely smooth and beautiful when he was put away for the winter last October...had UVB bulbs...ambient heat...running humidifier...look what happened to Sam despite my best eff
@sarah-sinc...I know my tortoises are bigger then yours but their example goes right along with what Tom said...this is Knobby...a badly pyramided rescue...I've had him for 3 yrs and all his new growth is smooth...
View attachment 296592
kept in the same shed as Knobby is a 50+lb 8 yr old Sulcata Big Sam...he was completely smooth and beautiful when he was put away for the winter last October...had UVB bulbs...ambient heat...running humidifier...look what happened to Sam despite my best effortsView attachment 296594View attachment 296595...
[/QUO
@sarah-sinc...I know my tortoises are bigger then yours but their example goes right along with what Tom said...this is Knobby...a badly pyramided rescue...I've had him for 3 yrs and all his new growth is smooth...
View attachment 296592
kept in the same shed as Knobby is a 50+lb 8 yr old Sulcata Big Sam...he was completely smooth and beautiful when he was put away for the winter last October...had UVB bulbs...ambient heat...running humidifier...look what happened to Sam despite my best effortsView attachment 296594View attachment 296595...
o my but look how gorgeous they are!!! Wow!
I guess you're right sometimes we can do everything and something happens. I just hope I'm doing enough for him as I adore the little dude! /
 

ZDR94

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I don't agree with most of your post.

Leaving the coco coir fluffy is very messy. They can dig into packed coir just fine any time they want.

This species doesn't get shell rot. That is redfoot or yellow foot tortoises. The substrate shouldn't be wet all the time, but damp is fine. I've raised hundreds of hatchings of several species on damp substrate. Not one case of shell rot. Testudo like to dig past the drier layers of substrate at the surface into the more damp layers below. This is the same thing they do in the wild to create their own little humid microclimate.

There are many reasons why a tortoise might choose to park on one end or the other. Giving them a choice of the right or wrong conditions, might end up with them choosing the wrong conditions for reasons we will never understand. I give my outdoor tortoises a warm heated night box. Sometimes they choose to go park under a bush or in a corner when night temps will drop to the 30s. Should I let them choose? Do they know best? I think not. I put them in their warm houses every night if they aren't already in there on their own.

Pyramiding is NOT caused by over feeding or lack of calcium. You are parroting old incorrect information that someone else parroted from someone else. This is exactly how wrong and bad info spreads. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. Tortoises are grazers. They need access to food all day and should be able to graze on the right foods all day. Likewise, calcium intake is important for tortoises, but a lack of it doesn't cause pyramiding. An abundance of it doesn't prevent pyramiding. You can rate a tortoise with the perfect amount of the best foods possible and if conditions are dry, it will pyramid. Likewise, you can raise a tortoise on an overabundance of the wrongs foods, and if conditions are correct, it will grow totally smooth. I know this because I've seen many many examples of both all over the country and all over the world.

We know these things from decades of trial and error, experimentation, consultation with other experimenters, and have raised hundreds and hundreds of babies into adulthood with all this info. You are reading old wrong stuff and perpetuating the old wrong stuff by repeating it here. I have no doubt you mean well and intended to help, but repeating incorrect info doesn't help anyone.
Hi, I think we will have to agree to disagree. This isn’t information I’ve “just read”.

Coco coir is what I use and I personally don’t find it “very messy“, which is why I suggested that it’s best to try it and make own opinions on it. I’m not forcing my opinion on anyone as people can make up their own minds.

I appreciate you’re passionate but I’m not here to argue with anyone so I won’t go into each point. However, I think we’d both agree that all aspects such as humidity, food, temp etc are all important to grow a healthy tortoise and so there is no harm in keeping an eye on it all.
 

Tom

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Hi, I think we will have to agree to disagree. This isn’t information I’ve “just read”.

Coco coir is what I use and I personally don’t find it “very messy“, which is why I suggested that it’s best to try it and make own opinions on it. I’m not forcing my opinion on anyone as people can make up their own minds.

I appreciate you’re passionate but I’m not here to argue with anyone so I won’t go into each point. However, I think we’d both agree that all aspects such as humidity, food, temp etc are all important to grow a healthy tortoise and so there is no harm in keeping an eye on it all.
I'm not here to argue either, but I also can't let incorrect info stand. We've been working very hard here for over a decade to dispel some of the old myths and get the correct info out into the world. When someone comes along and repeats the old wrong info, something needs to be said about it so that people reading don't get the wrong info and keep parroting it.
 

ZDR94

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Sure, I understand what you’re saying. But there is a way to disagree without seeming aggressive, we’re all here to help one another and share information. The information I’ve been given was passed on by a long standing tortoise sanctuary that has cared for many many tortoises and some of it from my own personal experience. Some things such as substrate and methods to create humidity are keepers preference and so I was just sharing what works best for me and how my tort reacts. I really don’t want to argue, I completely get your viewpoint (and will take some of it onboard) but the way it was said I felt I had to defend myself to some degree. All the best.
 

Maggie3fan

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Hi, I think we will have to agree to disagree. This isn’t information I’ve “just read”.

Coco coir is what I use and I personally don’t find it “very messy“, which is why I suggested that it’s best to try it and make own opinions on it. I’m not forcing my opinion on anyone as people can make up their own minds.

I appreciate you’re passionate but I’m not here to argue with anyone so I won’t go into each point. However, I think we’d both agree that all aspects such as humidity, food, temp etc are all important to grow a healthy tortoise and so there is no harm in keeping an eye on it all.
@ZDR94 It's obvious that you have done some research....and I applaud you for it...and you are cautious about accepting advice from a stranger...all good...however...your research has brought you here and this is where you've been researching to find. So pull up a chair and an open mind, get to know us and you and your tortoise will benefit from it...I give you my word. My sister has 30+ years of turtle and tortoise rescue and keeping. There's KarenSoCal, ZEROPILOT Toddrickfl1 Wellington ALDABRAMAN Tortulas-len oh jeeze, so many my old mind can't bring them all up...so if I have forgotton a name, plz forgive me...years and years of tortoise keeping... research...genetics...and research for advice. Oh man...how could I have forgotten...Tom. I also have an 'agree to disagree' deal with Tom. I have been a member here since 2008. I have known him since he came on a few months later I think. I have spent years reading his posts, reading about his adventures with a man from Africa who seems to be rescuing native Sulcata one at a time. I have spent those years being irritated by him, fighting with him, and I have been to his place up the Grapevine in Calif. It irritates me no end to see a new post asking for advice on Sulcata and see that ? do do dummm TOM has already answered complete with the proper care sheets.
 

Maggie3fan

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@ZDR94 It's obvious that you have done some research....and I applaud you for it...and you are cautious about accepting advice from a stranger...all good...however...your research has brought you here and this is where you've been researching to find. So pull up a chair and an open mind, get to know us and you and your tortoise will benefit from it...I give you my word. My sister has 30+ years of turtle and tortoise rescue and keeping. There's KarenSoCal, ZEROPILOT Toddrickfl1 Wellington ALDABRAMAN Tortulas-len oh jeeze, so many my old mind can't bring them all up...so if I have forgotton a name, plz forgive me...years and years of tortoise keeping... research...genetics...and research for advice. Oh man...how could I have forgotten...Tom. I also have an 'agree to disagree' deal with Tom. I have been a member here since 2008. I have known him since he came on a few months later I think. I have spent years reading his posts, reading about his adventures with a man from Africa who seems to be rescuing native Sulcata one at a time. I have spent those years being irritated by him, fighting with him, and I have been to his place up the Grapevine in Calif. It irritates me no end to see a new post asking for advice on Sulcata and see that ? do do dummm TOM has already answered complete with the proper care sheets.

@Tom...I said very nice things about you in the part of my post that was deleted. I said in all this time I have never heard/read/or seen bad advice given by you...I hoped my post was honest but funny...I said nobody HAS to follow Tom's advice...I mostly don't...but read it...take it in...then decide what applies to you and your tortoise and what doesn't...sorry Tom...without moderating this was a good comment...
 

ZDR94

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@ZDR94 It's obvious that you have done some research....and I applaud you for it...and you are cautious about accepting advice from a stranger...all good...however...your research has brought you here and this is where you've been researching to find. So pull up a chair and an open mind, get to know us and you and your tortoise will benefit from it...I give you my word. My sister has 30+ years of turtle and tortoise rescue and keeping. There's KarenSoCal, ZEROPILOT Toddrickfl1 Wellington ALDABRAMAN Tortulas-len oh jeeze, so many my old mind can't bring them all up...so if I have forgotton a name, plz forgive me...years and years of tortoise keeping... research...genetics...and research for advice. Oh man...how could I have forgotten...Tom. I also have an 'agree to disagree' deal with Tom. I have been a member here since 2008. I have known him since he came on a few months later I think. I have spent years reading his posts, reading about his adventures with a man from Africa who seems to be rescuing native Sulcata one at a time. I have spent those years being irritated by him, fighting with him, and I have been to his place up the Grapevine in Calif. It irritates me no end to see a new post asking for advice on Sulcata and see that ? do do dummm TOM has already answered complete with the proper care sheets.
Hi @maggie3fan, I really appreciate your reply. I don’t wish to fall out with anyone on here and as you’ll see from my reply to Tom minutes before your comment I said that I would take some of what he said on board. However, whether you soak the soil or spray it is personal preference and a bit silly to argue over. I do feel it’s good practice for multiple people to share their preferences and ways of doing things on here. Discouraging people to share their knowledge and experiences defeats the point of this forum. I wasn’t trying to make an enemy out of anyone and sure that we will all learn from each other with the right attitudes and open minds as you said.
 

KronksMom

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While I agree with everything you just posted, I think it's very important for us to say when someone's preference is flat out wrong. If you want to spray your substrate instead of pour water into it, that's up to you. But telling people that pyramiding is caused by over feeding and lack of calcium is just not true. When confronted with things that can be proven to be false, one must speak up. Otherwise a new keeper could come on here, see only that comment, and make terrible decisions in the care of their brand new tort. Hopefully a new tortoise owner would read more than just your one post, but you never know what will stick in someones mind. That's why it's important to not let information you KNOW is wrong stand.
 

ZDR94

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While I agree with everything you just posted, I think it's very important for us to say when someone's preference is flat out wrong. If you want to spray your substrate instead of pour water into it, that's up to you. But telling people that pyramiding is caused by over feeding and lack of calcium is just not true. When confronted with things that can be proven to be false, one must speak up. Otherwise a new keeper could come on here, see only that comment, and make terrible decisions in the care of their brand new tort. Hopefully a new tortoise owner would read more than just your one post, but you never know what will stick in someones mind. That's why it's important to not let information you KNOW is wrong stand.
I totally agree if I was to question something I would offer my thoughts (in a pleasant tone). But being told I’m wrong by a stranger with no explanation is a bit bizarre and hard to just accept and not question. I’ve not just information I’ve read, I’ve contacted sanctuary’s and asked for advice from knowledgable people in the tortoise world. I was told calcium is necessary for shell growth and over feeding makes tortoises grow too quickly, creating keratin stress on the shell which is early signs of pyramiding and I’ve found much research that supports this. Am I wrong for sharing my findings? Slowly starting to regret it. If there is evidence that shows this is not the case I’ll absolutely have an open mind but no one seems willing to actually explain.
 

Relic

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Hi @maggie3fan, I really appreciate your reply. I don’t wish to fall out with anyone on here and as you’ll see from my reply to Tom minutes before your comment I said that I would take some of what he said on board. However, whether you soak the soil or spray it is personal preference and a bit silly to argue over. I do feel it’s good practice for multiple people to share their preferences and ways of doing things on here. Discouraging people to share their knowledge and experiences defeats the point of this forum. I wasn’t trying to make an enemy out of anyone and sure that we will all learn from each other with the right attitudes and open minds as you said.
I don't think soaking the soil (which goes deep into the underlayer) and spraying the soil (which wets the surface) can be considered comparable. Spraying the surface quickly evaporates, while keeping the base wet provides longer-term moisture release and more constantly high humidity. Honestly, some things are really not just personal preferences, but established fact by NUMEROUS successful breeders/keepers over MANY years. Don't take any replies you get here as "offensive" or"harsh," but as folks who patiently, and repeatedly correct husbandry mistakes that persist from the past, despite the large volume of data that presents better techniques with better results. As an old man, I've found nearly every single thing I learned in my 20's is wrong...and my wife reminds me daily.
 

ZDR94

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I don't think soaking the soil (which goes deep into the underlayer) and spraying the soil (which wets the surface) can be considered comparable. Spraying the surface quickly evaporates, while keeping the base wet provides longer-term moisture release and more constantly high humidity. Honestly, some things are really not just personal preferences, but established fact by NUMEROUS successful breeders/keepers over MANY years. Don't take any replies you get here as "offensive" or"harsh," but as folks who patiently, and repeatedly correct husbandry mistakes that persist from the past, despite the large volume of data that presents better techniques with better results. As an old man, I've found nearly every single thing I learned in my 20's is wrong...and my wife reminds me daily.
I agree it’s not the same, which is why in my initial comment I advised that I do both. The enclosure only needs soaking once a week. But I spray daily. -was one of my points.

I completely get that people might get frustrated saying the same things over but without explanation it’s hard for others to agree.
 
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