Do you think it's ethical to keep reptiles as pets?

[Cowboy_Ken]

When I see my tortoises stretched out basking asleep, I think they are dreaming of the next stage of their evolution, which they believe is flight, based on the fact that they spend time on the glass not trying to get out but trying to get airborne. If they wanted out, surely they would ram the glass and break it. My Uro climbs the glass not to escape but to get to the refrigerator where he knows the good greens are. Doves released at weddings fly away not to be free but to feed hawks and uphold an agreement hawks and doves made long ago.
These are just some of my thoughts.

 

[lovelyrosepetal]

Hi Tortus, I know how you feel. You want the best for your animals and it discourages you when all they want to do is escape. I had seven box turtles,all of them rescues. They were all wild caught and I got them off of people on craigslist who got tired of having them. Out of all of those I only have four left. It just about breaks my heart. I spent hours on their enclosures and so much money on them, not to mention all the emotional investment. I don't know how they got away. I thought everything was secure, but in the morning they were gone, at different times. While I do think most wild animals would prefer to be free, I don't think that all do. I still have four box turtles. They have been outside of their enclosure and have not escaped for freedom. Wrong or right, I think that they like having the easy life. They are fed and have their needs met without having to do anything. They have a large outside enclosure and get to do the things they want, when they want and have never made a break for freedom. They seem to like my company and are content. While my heart breaks for my missing box turtles, I hope that they are safe and happy where ever they are.
I do not think it is unethical to keep reptiles. If you want them and can care for them, then you should. The Lord put us on this earth and one of those reasons was for us to have experiences, if one of the experiences you want to have is to take care of His creations then you should. I am not saying take them and neglect them, I am saying take care of them.
That is my two cents worth. Plus, I agree with StudentoftheReptile, animals do not have the same mental process as us and I think can be fine physically and mentally if their needs are met.

 

[Tortus]

My uro often climbs the glass when it's hungry or wants to poop. I have a litter box that I put it on to do its business then it settles down a bit. But sometimes it does it simply out of boredom and trying to escape I assume. Or it will look at the floor and scratch at the glass. I can't think of any other reason aside from wanting to get out and do its own thing.

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Hi Tortus, I know how you feel. You want the best for your animals and it discourages you when all they want to do is escape. I had seven box turtles,all of them rescues. They were all wild caught and I got them off of people on craigslist who got tired of having them. Out of all of those I only have four left. It just about breaks my heart. I spent hours on their enclosures and so much money on them, not to mention all the emotional investment. I don't know how they got away. I thought everything was secure, but in the morning they were gone, at different times. While I do think most wild animals would prefer to be free, I don't think that all do. I still have four box turtles. They have been outside of their enclosure and have not escaped for freedom. Wrong or right, I think that they like having the easy life. They are fed and have their needs met without having to do anything. They have a large outside enclosure and get to do the things they want, when they want and have never made a break for freedom. They seem to like my company and are content. While my heart breaks for my missing box turtles, I hope that they are safe and happy where ever they are.
I do not think it is unethical to keep reptiles. If you want them and can care for them, then you should. The Lord put us on this earth and one of those reasons was for us to have experiences, if one of the experiences you want to have is to take care of His creations then you should. I am not saying take them and neglect them, I am saying take care of them.
That is my two cents worth. Plus, I agree with StudentoftheReptile, animals do not have the same mental process as us and I think can be fine physically and mentally if their needs are met.

These are good points. I do think however that reptiles have some of the same feelings we do. Happiness. Fear. Sadness. Maybe not love since they're mostly solitary. You can't tell by facial expressions of course but just body language. Just my opinion.

I'm glad to hear different points of view.

 

[Baoh]

I imagine my tortoises would probably love to be free up until the point where they are eaten by predators, starve in a seasonal famine, or are hit by a significant negative weather/environmental event.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

I have had three different species of Uros, and none of them did that. Mine were content to hide when they wanted and bask when they wanted. The only time they ever exhibited "unhappiness" was occasionally when picked up. But all seemed very content in their spacious housing, various hiding shelters, nice digable substrate and 1 square meal brought to them daily. And these were WC specimens, too.

 

[EricIvins]

^^Dogs and cats love to go outside, but all of mine come back. Most seem to genuinely enjoy human contact. I can't say the same for my green iguana with his own room. I put him on the screened porch one day to get some sun. Went in for a drink. And that was the last I saw of him. I still don't know how he got out since there are no holes in the screen. I thought it was secure but it wasn't.

Iguanas are masters of escape. My cousin had one that got loose when we were kids and we posted flyers around the neighborhood. Someone found it 1/2 a mile away.

I knew my alien/human comment would get some flack, but from watching reptile behavior for so many years I have to think this is how they feel. Some cope much better than others in captivity so I won't assume they're all miserable. But I do think they all want to get away. I remember seeing a large iguana in a zoo in a large outdoor enclosure. It was pacing back and forth trying to get through the mesh. Even though it had trees and all kinds of things you'd see in nature.

I have a Dog that loves to outside and NEVER come back.......Should I just let him go because he wants to feel "freedom"? Isn't much for Human interaction either.........

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

I will concur that green iguanas require A LOT of space, and few people are willing to offer them the space they need.

I've never had a snake of any species exhibit sadness, or general discontent at being in captivity. Being picked up by large hairless primates, yes! But not in their habitats.

I could go on...Tortus, I'm not trying to "show off my resume" so to speak. But like you, I have been keeping reptiles for 20 yrs, and I have not seen much of the behavior you are describing that suggests reptiles in general are "unhappy' in captivity.

 

[shellysmom]

This was inspired by another thread. Maybe "ethical" isn't the right word.

I've had reptiles all my life. I've had green iguanas, uromastyx, bearded dragons, anoles, horn toad lizards, snakes, aquatic turtles, and now a tortoise.

What they all have in common is they don't want to be restrained. They don't want to be in enclosures. They don't want their range limited to one small area. They really don't like our company, even if we want to believe they do.

I find them beautiful and fascinating. But when I think about it, I don't believe they were meant to be pets. They tolerate us at best.

I think this tortoise will be my last reptile. It was captive born and I can't release it into the wild, so I'll do my best to make it happy. Even captive born reptiles yearn to be free. Sometimes I feel selfish.

I didn't read anyone else's response to this, because I didn't want to get distracted. And I'm not going to visit this thread again, because I don't want to see how people respond to my comments. BUT, in my ideal world--let's call it La La Land--wild animals, i.e., reptiles would never be pets. That's why I never have, and probably never will, buy any animal from a breeder or pet store. I don't want to support the wild-caught pet trade, or the people who exploit live creatures for profit. That being said, I obviously understand the attraction people have for these animals, and enjoy having them around. I just choose to rescue them, or give "gently used" ones a new home, instead of participating in the supply-demand dynamic. I've said it before, and I'll say it again and again: too many sulcatas are being dumped by their owners because they are completely impractical for the average person, yet people are still breeding them and selling them to average people like there's no tomorrow. That's really messed up, and I wish sellers would be a little more conscientious than that. If someone out there wants to breed tortoises, I'm in no position to stop them, but for God's sake choose a more practical (i.e., small, non-burrowing) species that can be housed easily. But, I can't control what other people do, so I just do whatever I can to help make up for it.

If reptile ownership were banned tomorrow, I would not mind at all, as long as I would be able to keep the ones I already have.

 

[Floof]

If reptile ownership were banned tomorrow, I would not mind at all, as long as I would be able to keep the ones I already have.

Now, where is that popcorn when you need it...

I am utterly horrified at this statement (and completely baffled at Tortus's views). Were I a more articulate individual, I would be jumping head-first into this debate. But I'm not, so I think I'm going to go fetch some cookies, sit back, and enjoy the debate.

It'll be interesting to see where this goes, now that I know there are borderline animal rights activists amongst us... Well, if any of those AR activists decide to stick around to even talk about it, anyway.

 

[terryo]

I've kept box turtles for well over 30 years, and my Dad before me did. Now I have the Tortoises. I think I've provided the best homes inside and outside that I could for them. I love seeing how they come to me when they see me....looking for food....not a pat on the head. But, I don't think there is a living thing, even though provided with the best possible care, and habitat, that doesn't want to be free. Most would rather die then be confined. I've struggled with guilt feelings for years, sitting on a fence, wanting no part of keeping them, but my selfishness always won out. I don't think I would compare owning a pet to a breeding program to keep a species alive.

 

[Jacqui]

But I'm not, so I think I'm going to go fetch some cookies, sit back, and enjoy the debate.

*uses sad puppy dog eyes* Boy those cookies sure look good. *hint hint*

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

I had children for selfish reasons. I think it's the same, right?

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

I really have nothing more to say, except some of the views expressed in this thread is exactly why I fear for the herp hobby in general. Its nice to know exactly who some of our enemies are.

Probably for the best that I have a new job where I won't be on the computer as much now anyway. It has always saddened me that some of the enemies of my hobby are on a herp forum of all places.

 

[Floof]

But I'm not, so I think I'm going to go fetch some cookies, sit back, and enjoy the debate.

*uses sad puppy dog eyes* Boy those cookies sure look good. *hint hint*

Awww... Okay... You can have one. *gives cookie*

 

[wellington]

Cookies, there's cookies, hey, where's the COOKIES

 

[dannel]

This is getting real serious now that cookies are involved!

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And my 2 cents about keeping species alive, hypothetically speaking, what if a person had a "herd" of Pinta island tortoises. They could breed them, and release into the wild, and the species wouldn't be extinct anymore.

 

[Yvonne G]

I really have nothing more to say, except some of the views expressed in this thread is exactly why I fear for the herp hobby in general. Its nice to know exactly who some of our enemies are.

Probably for the best that I have a new job where I won't be on the computer as much now anyway. It has always saddened me that some of the enemies of my hobby are on a herp forum of all places.

You really can't judge who is on a forum by the responses to a hot topic like this. I will fight for my right to keep tortoises as "pets," but I usually don't debate about it. There are probably many more like me in the world.

 

[Floof]

LOL. It's all Target's fault. The Halloween frosted sugar cookies looked too yummy to resist.

I'm still just incredibly speechless that there are people right here on a herp forum that support reptile bans. It's just... I mean, if you have kept and even currently keep reptiles, how is it that you could come to the conclusion that no one should be able to enjoy them? Not only is that incredibly hypocritical (I don't care if you rescued them from death's door, you're doing the very thing that you're so adamantly against), it's... Well, you know how much of a joy they are to interact with. One would think that, being here, you might have come to realize that you aren't the only person on the planet who cares for them correctly and are able to provide them with a happy, fulfilled life. It's just... Ugh. I can't even put words to it.

Like I said, I am not a terribly well articulated person, especially during a passionate discussion.

Anyway, I'll be off now. There are animals to be fed, cleaned, and enjoyed.

And, yes, I'm quite aware of how selfish I am for having pets. I'm also selfish for wanting cookies, lower gas prices, a house that isn't moldy in a climate where everything is, cheap rent, a job that's enjoyable. Any "want" can be labelled as "selfish" under some context. It's part of being human to be selfish. But as long as I am able to keep my selfishly owned pets happy, healthy, well-fed, and properly kept, I won't be losing any sleep.

Well, I guess I wasn't completely done after all. LOL.

 

[BowandWalter]

It's the human condition to transfer our mental structure onto animals, I do, I'm certain tons of people do. When my dog goes outside in the rain to do her business she behaves exactly how I imagine I would if I was expected to grovel around in wet grass. Miserable.

I'm not observant, or particularly good at not being distracted by pretty much anything. All the times I've been on the lawn and thought "Wholly cow! I've lost Walter" and frantically started looking for him, he's right behind me. He devotedly follows around after me, he likes to attack me, but if he really hated me he would have just charged off into the wilds by now. Maybe it's because he's a rescue, maybe he just hates me with the fiery passion of a thousand burning suns.
Same with my bird, he likes to sit outside in the kiwi vine if I'm outside. His wings aren't clipped, if he wanted he could just leave. But he doesn't. He follows me everywhere, outside, inside, wherever. He even gives me pieces of lint and weird things he's found, according to the avian vet for all intensive purposes I am Duki's partner. He's happier with me, a human, then he is with his own kind, we've even gotten him a girl, he has no interest in her, or any of the other birds I've rescued. I even Skype with him now that I'm going to school far far away.
I've rescued enough animals in 19 years to know that some people shouldn't have pets, heck some people shouldn't even be allowed to reproduce. As long as theirs silly people buying pets for S and G, there will be people like me rescuing them.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

You really can't judge who is on a forum by the responses to a hot topic like this. I will fight for my right to keep tortoises as "pets," but I usually don't debate about it. There are probably many more like me in the world.

Yes I most certainly can, especially when members all but come out and say they in support of banning ownership of reptiles. This is not the first time I have observed this mentality on this forum, and honestly, I am sick of seeing it, discussing it, ever acknowledging its existence. I've said it before, but this is the ONLY forum I have seen "alleged" reptile keepers actually support bans, and I have been on quite a few over the years.

This isn't like I disagreed with someone over gun rights, or politics, or whether they believe in ghosts, or whatever. When someone says:

If reptile ownership were banned tomorrow, I would not mind at all, as long as I would be able to keep the ones I already have

...that sends a fairly clear message that they do not value their privilege (don't care what anyone says, it is not a right, it is a privilege) to keep these animals (regardless of reason), and that statement right there basically says, "It's fine for me to keep on owning them, but not for anyone else."

I know Erika is not the only one has made such statements; there have been others. Their misguided delusions of animal welfare are a large part of what threatens what I enjoy doing. I have no interest in being associated with this forum any longer because of it. They are part of the problem I face constantly. Period.

If the administration wants to create a new forum exclusively for "tortoise conservationalists" who clearly oppose the pet trade, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea.

---

I'll tell you all why I'm acting this way, and then I'm done.

Like I said, we've had similar discussions before, and I've resigned myself to the fact that some of you tortoise folk are more than happy to throw snake keepers under the bus, for any number of silly, bogus reasons. I deal with it.

But on this thread, I have gotten the impression for at least two different people that you are willing to throw your own fellow tortoise keepers under the bus! That is completely backwards to me. I want to go into a room, shut the door, and scream into a pillow right now because I'm sitting here wondering to myself, "Why on earth are you on this forum?!"

If you're willing to throw the rest of us aside like that, shoot, you are indeed dead to me as a reptile enthusiast of any kind, and I don't want to be associated with you at all.

Those who know me well, you got my email. Feel free to shoot me a letter sometime. But I'm done with this place.