Do you think it's ethical to keep reptiles as pets?

[sibi]

Now that most of the squabble is over, I'll jump in. The question was, "Do you think it's ethical to keep reptiles as pets?" Yes, it's certainly ethical, provided you care for them and try to simulate an environment similar to what's natural for them. That environment may not be sufficient but it will be necessary for them to survive and grow. Today, all kinds of reptiles, including our tortoises, are being exploited and sold to anyone who is willing to pay for it. Often times, they become objects placed in a plastic bag and sold as key rings, or they are abused by their owners who don't provide the foods and environment necessary just to sustain life. Now, that's unethical! As far as seeing an emotion that we cannot absolutely know exists in these reptiles, I will not debate you on that because the fact is, no one can really know for a certainty. But, what I will say about reptiles is that there are emotions that they feel, perhaps not like humans, but emotions nonetheless. For instance, reptiles may not vocalize pain, but they do feel pain. I have seen and heard it with both my water turtle and sulcata. They obviously feel fear, stress, even anger...so why not love? Why do reptiles feel all these other emotions, but not love? When I stare into my sulcata's eyes, and make a long blink, he imitates me. I look straight into his eyes and say, "I love you so much," and at that moment, I sense he's feeling the same. Now, you can say I'm off my rocker, but animals do have senses that humans don't have...and it may not be the "love" that humans experience, but it's close to it. No ones intellectual's studies of animal/reptiles behaviors could convince me that I'm wrong about this even if I can't prove it. That's all I have to say for now.

 

[lovelyrosepetal]

I agree with you sibi. I think tortoises and other animals can feel love and I think that they can be happy with their owners. My son had a chameleon in Hawaii. It was such a cool reptile. We loved it. At first I could not get it to eat, but one day I asked it to please eat, I did not want it to die because I loved it and right after I said this, it looked at me, right into my eyes, opened up and ate. I was so happy. You cannot convince me that tortoises cannot be happy with being captive. cemmons has Cooper who obviously loves him and maggie3fan has Bob who, I think, adores her. There are so many other examples than these. I truly don't know why anyone would want to tell someone else that they can't do this and they can't do that with their own lives and their own money. If you have the means and you take care of them, there is nothing unethical about it. If you are not doing a proper job of taking care of these animals than that would be unethical. I think that by having a demand, these tortoises will never become extinct and that is a good thing.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

I don't know so much about emotions but i think Bob just gave me the finger when I woke him up.

---

I don't know so much about emotions but i think Bob just gave me the finger when I woke him up.

Ummm Fred.

 

[Floof]

OH. I thought of a good one. I would like to have a dish sponge that isn't always covered in bits of food and grime and bacteria and yuck, but my roommate claims that wanting that makes ME incredibly selfish.

Everything is selfish to someone in some context or another. I think it's incredibly selfish to deny passionate, caring animal lovers the chance to experience and care for these animals just because YOU, one singular person, just so happen to have the opinion that it might be "unethical." Face facts. The reason reptiles are so widely and successfully kept is because they DO do well in captivity. Many, many species THRIVE in captivity. So long as they're fed and cared for correctly, they're healthy and happy. For all any of us here knows, your definition of a large enclosure for a Uromastyx is a 20 gallon tank. For all any of us here knows, you have a basking rock, a hide, an inch of dirt, and that's it. For all we know, you only feed it once a week or so. Not saying that's the case, of course. My point is, if your uromastyx is truly unhappy in captivity, how do we know that's not for some other reason that you fail to notice?

On another point, you seem to have deemed that any escape behavior at all is automatically a sign that the animal is terribly unhappy in captivity. Not hungry, not (in the case of many pet bearded dragons) wanting a bit of exercise, not needing to poop, not trying to figure out why there's another snake/lizard/tortoise in the glass looking back at them. None of that. Just wanting freedom.

I'm just going to take a look at my animals here for a moment, because, frankly, those are the animals I'm familiar with. Just like you based this whole thread solely on your experience with some unknown number of animals under an unknown quality of care.

Most of my snakes are fed every two weeks. Occasionally, feeding day will be pushed out an extra week. Sometimes it'll be moved up a few days.

Right around the 13-15 day mark, my woma python, who, the majority of the time, is quite satisfied and happy with exploring the limits of his world (and the limits of the couch when I bring him out solely for my own benefit of being able to bask in his glory), will begin to search for the mysterious mechanism that makes the front of his cage magically swing open whenever I (strange primate creature that brings food and water and cleans up that stinky mess that comes out of his bum every few weeks) go to check on him. Does that mean he suddenly yearns for freedom and laments his captivity? No... He's just hungry.

Two of my snakes are rosy boas. These two snakes are perpetually hungry. It can be three weeks since they were last fed, or it can be three days. They are always cruising around looking for food. They don't push and shove at the confines of their tubs. They don't appear to loathe their captivity. When I open their tubs to check in on them, clean their poop, and so on, they do not automatically dive for freedom. They do not make any moves to leave their comfortable pieces of territory. They poke their heads over the lip of the tub and they check to see if there's a mouse nearby that needs to be eaten. One will either crawl out and investigate my hand or return to nosing around her enclosure if there's no food; the other will continue leaning out of the tub and, if given the opportunity, test to see if my fingers are food. They do not yearn for freedom. They do not lament their captivity. They just really like to eat.

My Schneider's skink does this thing where she'll start scrabbling at the sides of her enclosure about every other day. Can you guess how often she eats? Yup... Every other day. Once she has a full belly, and on that off day that she's learned the Food God won't be delivering, she's quite content to bask, explore, burrow. She does not yearn for freedom. She does not lament her captivity. And the best part about this one? She's a wild-caught animal, so she, at one time, knew exactly what this "freedom" thing is that you go on about. It took her only a week to settle in and recognize that nothing would be eating her in this new slice of territory she'd been relegated to. Once she came to realize that, she settled down and became very satisfied with her new lot in life.

I remember when my dear little tortoise still lived in an all glass enclosure. He did no glass dancing. He made no attempts to escape. During heat waves when the combination of his MVB and the lack of household air conditioning was just a bit too powerful for his enclosure, I would open his door, sit on the couch, and watch as he moved to the door, sat in the opening, and observed his "kingdom." The only times I have ever seen this animal unhappy in captivity? When I first took him in, as a very poorly cared for little animal, and then during a brief period when I had to take away his precious dirt to deal with a snake mite infestation. So long as he has his dirt, his food, a good sized enclosure to explore, and the right temperatures, he's perfectly happy right where he is.

Why is it always that, by the time I come up with the right words to express what I want to say, the conversation has already ended? LOL. Oh well. It will drive me nuts if I do not say my piece, even if this debate IS long since over.

All this talk of cookies makes me really, really want pumpkin chocolate chip cookies. Mmmm...

 

[BowandWalter]

OH. I thought of a good one. I would like to have a dish sponge that isn't always covered in bits of food and grime and bacteria and yuck, but my roommate claims that wanting that makes ME incredibly selfish.

Everything is selfish to someone in some context or another. I think it's incredibly selfish to deny passionate, caring animal lovers the chance to experience and care for these animals just because YOU, one singular person, just so happen to have the opinion that it might be "unethical." Face facts. The reason reptiles are so widely and successfully kept is because they DO do well in captivity. Many, many species THRIVE in captivity. So long as they're fed and cared for correctly, they're healthy and happy. For all any of us here knows, your definition of a large enclosure for a Uromastyx is a 20 gallon tank. For all any of us here knows, you have a basking rock, a hide, an inch of dirt, and that's it. For all we know, you only feed it once a week or so. Not saying that's the case, of course. My point is, if your uromastyx is truly unhappy in captivity, how do we know that's not for some other reason that you fail to notice?

On another point, you seem to have deemed that any escape behavior at all is automatically a sign that the animal is terribly unhappy in captivity. Not hungry, not (in the case of many pet bearded dragons) wanting a bit of exercise, not needing to poop, not trying to figure out why there's another snake/lizard/tortoise in the glass looking back at them. None of that. Just wanting freedom.

I'm just going to take a look at my animals here for a moment, because, frankly, those are the animals I'm familiar with. Just like you based this whole thread solely on your experience with some unknown number of animals under an unknown quality of care.

Most of my snakes are fed every two weeks. Occasionally, feeding day will be pushed out an extra week. Sometimes it'll be moved up a few days.

Right around the 13-15 day mark, my woma python, who, the majority of the time, is quite satisfied and happy with exploring the limits of his world (and the limits of the couch when I bring him out solely for my own benefit of being able to bask in his glory), will begin to search for the mysterious mechanism that makes the front of his cage magically swing open whenever I (strange primate creature that brings food and water and cleans up that stinky mess that comes out of his bum every few weeks) go to check on him. Does that mean he suddenly yearns for freedom and laments his captivity? No... He's just hungry.

Two of my snakes are rosy boas. These two snakes are perpetually hungry. It can be three weeks since they were last fed, or it can be three days. They are always cruising around looking for food. They don't push and shove at the confines of their tubs. They don't appear to loathe their captivity. When I open their tubs to check in on them, clean their poop, and so on, they do not automatically dive for freedom. They do not make any moves to leave their comfortable pieces of territory. They poke their heads over the lip of the tub and they check to see if there's a mouse nearby that needs to be eaten. One will either crawl out and investigate my hand or return to nosing around her enclosure if there's no food; the other will continue leaning out of the tub and, if given the opportunity, test to see if my fingers are food. They do not yearn for freedom. They do not lament their captivity. They just really like to eat.

My Schneider's skink does this thing where she'll start scrabbling at the sides of her enclosure about every other day. Can you guess how often she eats? Yup... Every other day. Once she has a full belly, and on that off day that she's learned the Food God won't be delivering, she's quite content to bask, explore, burrow. She does not yearn for freedom. She does not lament her captivity. And the best part about this one? She's a wild-caught animal, so she, at one time, knew exactly what this "freedom" thing is that you go on about. It took her only a week to settle in and recognize that nothing would be eating her in this new slice of territory she'd been relegated to. Once she came to realize that, she settled down and became very satisfied with her new lot in life.

I remember when my dear little tortoise still lived in an all glass enclosure. He did no glass dancing. He made no attempts to escape. During heat waves when the combination of his MVB and the lack of household air conditioning was just a bit too powerful for his enclosure, I would open his door, sit on the couch, and watch as he moved to the door, sat in the opening, and observed his "kingdom." The only times I have ever seen this animal unhappy in captivity? When I first took him in, as a very poorly cared for little animal, and then during a brief period when I had to take away his precious dirt to deal with a snake mite infestation. So long as he has his dirt, his food, a good sized enclosure to explore, and the right temperatures, he's perfectly happy right where he is.

Why is it always that, by the time I come up with the right words to express what I want to say, the conversation has already ended? LOL. Oh well. It will drive me nuts if I do not say my piece, even if this debate IS long since over.

All this talk of cookies makes me really, really want pumpkin chocolate chip cookies. Mmmm...

This is awesome, and perfect. You lie about not being eloquent in a discussion.

 

[bigred]

Wow I cant believe I wasted that much time reading this whole thing

 

[lynnedit]

Yes, Floof, you are very eloquent. This is a very tangled topic, but I am glad it was introduced, and have enjoyed reading the comments.
But why do I still want cookies too? Warm from the oven?

 

[Holycow]

Hmmm... Yes.

 

[Floof]

Thank you. I'm flattered. I'm really not nearly as good a wordsmith as many, many, many people here. It really did take me several hours of sitting and thinking this whole subject over to figure out how to form a coherent paragraph (or 7). I just need to start reading dictionaries when I'm bored. Or, god forbid, take a speech class. LOL.

Aaah, Lynne, evil! Now I want warm cookies, too... I just have these room temperature, super-sweet sugar things.

 

[shellysmom]

LOL, I couldn't resist coming back to take a look. My comments have made some people sad, or at least perplexed.. I just want to clarify, if reptile ownership were to be banned, (which is NEVER going to happen) I strongly feel that EVERYONE who currently owns reptiles should be able to keep those that they already have, not just me. I wouldn't be special in that regard. It's called being grandfathered in. It happens all the time when new laws are made. I love and am very attached to the animals in my family, so I wouldn't want to lose them, specifically. But, I would be very happy to live in a world where wild animals just lived in the wild, where they belong. Is that really such a horrible, foreign idea to people? Besides, my opinion doesn't even matter, because we are so far past the point of no return when it comes to having reptiles as pets, nothing is going to change in that regard. Sure, certain reptile species might be restricted in some locations for specific reasons, but who cares. Even restricted species can still be kept with the proper permit, so just get a freaking permit if you feel the absolute need to have a certain animal. How I feel in my heart obviously does not match up with reality, and never will, so I, personally, am not a threat to anyone's hobby or livelihood. I am WAY more focused on matters related to wild chelonian conservation and pet tortoise rescue, than I am in trying to take someone's hobby away. Also, I don't quite understand why some people here have such a hard time believing there are animal welfare and animal rights people on this forum? Every single person is here because they love or want to learn more about tortoises. How on Earth does that exclude AW or AR folks? Frankly, I'm surprised there aren't more of them here. Or, maybe there are, but they're smarter than me and just lurk .

 

[EKLC]

It's not ethical the way 90% of reptile owners keep their reptiles.

If you're doing it right, I would say not only is it ethical, but you're giving that animal a better life than they would have in the wild. I would say constant temperatures, no predators, no parasites, water readily available, and a constant supply of diverse and plentiful foods would make for a stress free animal.

 

[ascott]

I love tortoise as well as about a gazillion other critters that try to share this world with us.

I have a special place for CDTs, just do and could not tell you how that exactly happened...I find that I also have developed a soft spot for redfoot torts as well and their very different personalities and quirks in comparison to CDTs....I am blessed that I have the opportunity to have learned the quirks of these two species....as well as the RES turtles---pigly little critters....

I also LOVE LOVE LOVE dogs---of which I have two that are discards from other folks who thought they were absolutely adorable when they were little and then did not want to deal with them when "one day" they discovered they had no manners and should just be taken to the pound...well, I have the two huligans here and they make me crazy (absolutely crazy ) at least a million times a day each and every day---but I would have nothing else to whoop and hollar at, with, to if they had indeed been taken to the pound....so, well---they will live out their days here just as they are---pains in my rump...lol

I am a proud animal activist ; however, I believe everyone has had their own experiences with animal control, peta and the like--so not many two opinions of that "beast" will ever be the same--right?

Conservationists are a group of folks banning together for a common goal on behalf of animals---hence an animal rights group---so, to me this is not a bad thing, right?

Wildlife rehabbers are a group of folks dedicated to caring for a group of animals and rally together to educate people on the good and bad options for caring for an animal in the best manner to offer the best life for the animal, right? hence an animal rights group--so, to me this is not a bad thing, right?

PETA; completely different organization that has gone so far off the actual issue of saving animals that they are now just a silly point for an animal rights group reference, right? well to me anyhow...

Animal control; now this is a really tricky one for me---I have met some folks that wear this label, some have been the most dedicated, compassionate folks and are truly dedicated to save the animal and fully punish (with the pitiful enforcement allowed of laws to do so) the person that has created the pain, anguish and lingering death of an animal....however, I know that there are some that are nothing but idiots (this I know only of in my life by hearing others stories, thankfully not by first hand experience) however, I don't feel that this group of folks can be listed as animal rights groups---they are forced to be dog collectors/ cat collectors/ dead animal pick up crew/ and every other horrible thing that has to be dealt with by humans simply to satisfy and relieve other humans from being, well humane.

I suppose I could go on and on and I am sure you are all like, stop already....

I have a right as a great human to pretty much do whatever I want to---essentially that is if it is alright with all of the other humans-----I think that it would be a grand party if we all just realized that when this thread was started, likely that forum member, may have been in a funk, may have been feeling a bit sensitive to that human connection we all likely feel from time to time--that ever relentless need to feel free---to not feel blocked in--to not feel restricted---to wish we could TRULY be free--I know that I have those moments and I am not entirely a weirdo--so I am confident some of us have had that same moment....

I sometimes look at the CDTs here and feel really sad that they are no longer able to walk for miles --on their own desire--and in which ever direction they desire or are driven to---alas, I know in my right mind that these days a number of lethal obstacles are in their path--relentless obstacles, selfish obstacles, obstacles of our human progress....but it does not change the idealistic fantasy daydreams I have of what it must have been like for them to have in the past actually tasted that sense of free to do.....now, yes, they lounge about, they have food brought to them, they have soaks, they have a nice warm and soft rubbermaid tub waiting for them when there is a need to tuck into the house for awhile (or a few months)....but man, I know that as a simple human--I have a deep rooted evolutionary seed that will forever try to grow a bit---to try to capture moments of freedom---to capture moments of oneness from time to time to refuel my soul---well, before I am ruffled back into this worlds reality and back to it I must go....

So for tonight, I wish to be a compassionate human (while I still have some) and feel empathy for the forum member here who simply shared a moment with us and say to you, yes--there are times when the raw, simple human here absolutely "feels" very unethical for thinking I am in any way a comparison to the wild for these creatures that have made it millions of years much better off without the human interference than they are now faring with us trying to clean up some of our messy handy work....I would in a second, trade hosting them for times to change to go back to there being a norm of wild vs a norm of captive....I would love to return to simply being able to be out hiking and being blessed with seeing one in its own home--the wild.

Now, before anyone bothers to admonish me as one of the freak animal rights activists---let me say, I am too darn grown and too darn old to be upset by negative narrow minded comments, but will always LOVE to encounter those that are open minded to others views and feelings without mistaking those varied views and feelings as a personal attack....

 

[Tortus]

Now that most of the squabble is over, I'll jump in. The question was, "Do you think it's ethical to keep reptiles as pets?" Yes, it's certainly ethical, provided you care for them and try to simulate an environment similar to what's natural for them. That environment may not be sufficient but it will be necessary for them to survive and grow. Today, all kinds of reptiles, including our tortoises, are being exploited and sold to anyone who is willing to pay for it. Often times, they become objects placed in a plastic bag and sold as key rings, or they are abused by their owners who don't provide the foods and environment necessary just to sustain life. Now, that's unethical! As far as seeing an emotion that we cannot absolutely know exists in these reptiles, I will not debate you on that because the fact is, no one can really know for a certainty. But, what I will say about reptiles is that there are emotions that they feel, perhaps not like humans, but emotions nonetheless. For instance, reptiles may not vocalize pain, but they do feel pain. I have seen and heard it with both my water turtle and sulcata. They obviously feel fear, stress, even anger...so why not love? Why do reptiles feel all these other emotions, but not love? When I stare into my sulcata's eyes, and make a long blink, he imitates me. I look straight into his eyes and say, "I love you so much," and at that moment, I sense he's feeling the same. Now, you can say I'm off my rocker, but animals do have senses that humans don't have...and it may not be the "love" that humans experience, but it's close to it. No ones intellectual's studies of animal/reptiles behaviors could convince me that I'm wrong about this even if I can't prove it. That's all I have to say for now.

I guess if they see you as the food provider, they could feel a form of love. When I give my dog an especially good treat he'll snuggle up next to me on the sofa. Dogs are social animals, but I'm open to anything.

Someone mentioned birds and I'm convinced they feel love for their owner, or "mate". I had a Congo African Grey that would snuggle up and take naps with me. It followed me all around, tried to yack up food and feed me...kinda gross but that's what they do.

I hope this thread can continue to be about cookies. I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings and some seem to be taking it very personally. It's just a thought I had and maybe I shouldn't have put it on this forum. My uromastyx doesn't scratch at the glass all day, just particularly during the times I mentioned. Food and potty time. Some days it doesn't do it at all and chills in the cave or on the basking rock.

---

LOL, I couldn't resist coming back to take a look. My comments have made some people sad, or at least perplexed.. I just want to clarify, if reptile ownership were to be banned, (which is NEVER going to happen) I strongly feel that EVERYONE who currently owns reptiles should be able to keep those that they already have, not just me. I wouldn't be special in that regard. It's called being grandfathered in. It happens all the time when new laws are made. I love and am very attached to the animals in my family, so I wouldn't want to lose them, specifically. But, I would be very happy to live in a world where wild animals just lived in the wild, where they belong. Is that really such a horrible, foreign idea to people? Besides, my opinion doesn't even matter, because we are so far past the point of no return when it comes to having reptiles as pets, nothing is going to change in that regard. Sure, certain reptile species might be restricted in some locations for specific reasons, but who cares. Even restricted species can still be kept with the proper permit, so just get a freaking permit if you feel the absolute need to have a certain animal. How I feel in my heart obviously does not match up with reality, and never will, so I, personally, am not a threat to anyone's hobby or livelihood. I am WAY more focused on matters related to wild chelonian conservation and pet tortoise rescue, than I am in trying to take someone's hobby away. Also, I don't quite understand why some people here have such a hard time believing there are animal welfare and animal rights people on this forum? Every single person is here because they love or want to learn more about tortoises. How on Earth does that exclude AW or AR folks? Frankly, I'm surprised there aren't more of them here. Or, maybe there are, but they're smarter than me and just lurk .

Well said. Some people seem to be kicking and screaming because they want to continue buying reptiles and think someone here is trying to stop them. I really don't see that at all.

I got your point, though. This is a fun hobby. They're nice to look at, care for, and watch grow. Hell, maybe they even grow to like their big walking food dispensers. But they belong somewhere else and would be there if given the chance. Also, the reptile trade isn't full of people who care for their animals. Most people don't know how to care for them at all. They just see it, think it's cute, buy it, and it's all down hill from there. Growing up I knew a lot of people with reptiles. And they were all kept in tiny little tanks. A friend had two yellow bellies in a small tub in his back yard. The people selling them don't care if you keep a 2 foot iguana in a 20 gallon tank and feed it iceberg lettuce (I've seen this more than once) or if you take it home and eat it.

I don't think just anyone should be given the opportunity to purchase a reptile. I wouldn't mind seeing permits required. And you'd need to pass a test to get the permit so you know what you're getting yourself into. Little Timmy wouldn't be able to walk into a pet shop and beg mommy for a tortoise unless mommy has a permit.

Now, peanut butter or chocolate chip?

 

[wellington]

Tortus, it's just some are very passionate and can't understand anything but fact. It's just fine that you shared your thought with us. It's not your problem if some can't understand others, or think that others can't have a different point of view. People are always going to try and ban things, and I think a certain person has had to fight too much to have what they want. It's unfortunate they don't want to be here anymore, but that's not your problem or fault, that's theirs. My Uro will scratch at the glass. I take him out let him climb around a little and then he goes back and he's content. He actually only does it at certain times. I always wonder if these times would normally be breeding times, hmmm.

---

LOL, I couldn't resist coming back to take a look. My comments have made some people sad, or at least perplexed.. I just want to clarify, if reptile ownership were to be banned, (which is NEVER going to happen) I strongly feel that EVERYONE who currently owns reptiles should be able to keep those that they already have, not just me. I wouldn't be special in that regard. It's called being grandfathered in. It happens all the time when new laws are made. I love and am very attached to the animals in my family, so I wouldn't want to lose them, specifically. But, I would be very happy to live in a world where wild animals just lived in the wild, where they belong. Is that really such a horrible, foreign idea to people? Besides, my opinion doesn't even matter, because we are so far past the point of no return when it comes to having reptiles as pets, nothing is going to change in that regard. Sure, certain reptile species might be restricted in some locations for specific reasons, but who cares. Even restricted species can still be kept with the proper permit, so just get a freaking permit if you feel the absolute need to have a certain animal. How I feel in my heart obviously does not match up with reality, and never will, so I, personally, am not a threat to anyone's hobby or livelihood. I am WAY more focused on matters
related to wild chelonian conservation and pet tortoise rescue, than I am in trying to take someone's hobby away. Also, I don't quite understand why some people here have such a hard time believing there are animal welfare and animal rights people on this forum? Every single person is here because they love or want to learn more about tortoises. How on Earth does that exclude AW or AR folks? Frankly, I'm surprised there aren't more of them here. Or, maybe there are, but they're smarter than me and just lurk .

I think the certain person was more upset that you would be fine with the ban, because they have had to fight too keep what they have or have wanted. Also the fact that you have yours, but you want to ban anyone after you being able to enjoy the same things you get to enjoy. I don't think they thought that only you could keep yours, but the rest of us couldn't.

 

[Tortus]

I actually did this to get other points of view. I like a civil debate because it can change people's perspective, myself included, but when people start getting personal it feels like an attack.

Maybe I expressed my opinions a little too strongly yesterday. I think some people sound angry because deep down, even though they're making long posts trying to justify keeping reptiles as pets, they just might feel a little of what I'm feeling right now. Just a guess. I could be completely wrong about everything.

I'll just sit back and munch for a while. Didn't mean to **** anyone off.

 

[wellington]

Hey, what I say is better being pissed off, then pissed on LOL. Sit back, get some cookies and don't worry. Everyone has the right to their opinion. I think we all have thought about it at one time or another, whether with torts, lizards, snakes, dogs, cats, etc. I like going to zoos. However, I would rather their were no zoos and I could see them in the wild. Not that I don't understand the good that most zoos are doing, it's the fact that if humans didn't screw everything up for their own greed we wouldn't need zoos, animal rights groups or animal rescues, etc. the fact is, we can't go back. The animals I have, although not rescues, I feel they are way better in my care then someone else's. No one I know would have spent the money I have to save my dog. They all think I'm nuts, and would have put her down. So, I kinda feel like I am rescuing them, before they get into the hands of someone, that probably wouldn't or couldn't afford to spend or do what I will. Because of human greed, we do need to save the animals. They do not have enough of their own lands and food to stay sustainable. With out human ownership and breeding of lots of animals, lots of animals, would already be extinct. Animal lovers are the only voice they have. Unfortunately, we can't stop man from constantly invading animals wild homes, but we can bring them into our homes and give them the best life possible in captivity.

 

[terryo]

I love tortoise as well as about a gazillion other critters that try to share this world with us.

I have a special place for CDTs, just do and could not tell you how that exactly happened...I find that I also have developed a soft spot for redfoot torts as well and their very different personalities and quirks in comparison to CDTs....I am blessed that I have the opportunity to have learned the quirks of these two species....as well as the RES turtles---pigly little critters....

I also LOVE LOVE LOVE dogs---of which I have two that are discards from other folks who thought they were absolutely adorable when they were little and then did not want to deal with them when "one day" they discovered they had no manners and should just be taken to the pound...well, I have the two huligans here and they make me crazy (absolutely crazy ) at least a million times a day each and every day---but I would have nothing else to whoop and hollar at, with, to if they had indeed been taken to the pound....so, well---they will live out their days here just as they are---pains in my rump...lol

I am a proud animal activist ; however, I believe everyone has had their own experiences with animal control, peta and the like--so not many two opinions of that "beast" will ever be the same--right?

Conservationists are a group of folks banning together for a common goal on behalf of animals---hence an animal rights group---so, to me this is not a bad thing, right?

Wildlife rehabbers are a group of folks dedicated to caring for a group of animals and rally together to educate people on the good and bad options for caring for an animal in the best manner to offer the best life for the animal, right? hence an animal rights group--so, to me this is not a bad thing, right?

PETA; completely different organization that has gone so far off the actual issue of saving animals that they are now just a silly point for an animal rights group reference, right? well to me anyhow...

Animal control; now this is a really tricky one for me---I have met some folks that wear this label, some have been the most dedicated, compassionate folks and are truly dedicated to save the animal and fully punish (with the pitiful enforcement allowed of laws to do so) the person that has created the pain, anguish and lingering death of an animal....however, I know that there are some that are nothing but idiots (this I know only of in my life by hearing others stories, thankfully not by first hand experience) however, I don't feel that this group of folks can be listed as animal rights groups---they are forced to be dog collectors/ cat collectors/ dead animal pick up crew/ and every other horrible thing that has to be dealt with by humans simply to satisfy and relieve other humans from being, well humane.

I suppose I could go on and on and I am sure you are all like, stop already....

I have a right as a great human to pretty much do whatever I want to---essentially that is if it is alright with all of the other humans-----I think that it would be a grand party if we all just realized that when this thread was started, likely that forum member, may have been in a funk, may have been feeling a bit sensitive to that human connection we all likely feel from time to time--that ever relentless need to feel free---to not feel blocked in--to not feel restricted---to wish we could TRULY be free--I know that I have those moments and I am not entirely a weirdo--so I am confident some of us have had that same moment....

I sometimes look at the CDTs here and feel really sad that they are no longer able to walk for miles --on their own desire--and in which ever direction they desire or are driven to---alas, I know in my right mind that these days a number of lethal obstacles are in their path--relentless obstacles, selfish obstacles, obstacles of our human progress....but it does not change the idealistic fantasy daydreams I have of what it must have been like for them to have in the past actually tasted that sense of free to do.....now, yes, they lounge about, they have food brought to them, they have soaks, they have a nice warm and soft rubbermaid tub waiting for them when there is a need to tuck into the house for awhile (or a few months)....but man, I know that as a simple human--I have a deep rooted evolutionary seed that will forever try to grow a bit---to try to capture moments of freedom---to capture moments of oneness from time to time to refuel my soul---well, before I am ruffled back into this worlds reality and back to it I must go....

So for tonight, I wish to be a compassionate human (while I still have some) and feel empathy for the forum member here who simply shared a moment with us and say to you, yes--there are times when the raw, simple human here absolutely "feels" very unethical for thinking I am in any way a comparison to the wild for these creatures that have made it millions of years much better off without the human interference than they are now faring with us trying to clean up some of our messy handy work....I would in a second, trade hosting them for times to change to go back to there being a norm of wild vs a norm of captive....I would love to return to simply being able to be out hiking and being blessed with seeing one in its own home--the wild.

Now, before anyone bothers to admonish me as one of the freak animal rights activists---let me say, I am too darn grown and too darn old to be upset by negative narrow minded comments, but will always LOVE to encounter those that are open minded to others views and feelings without mistaking those varied views and feelings as a personal attack....

Once again Angela, you have taken everything I wished I could say, and put it down so eloquently on paper. That was a wonderful post....thank you.

 

[bigred]

I love tortoise as well as about a gazillion other critters that try to share this world with us.

I have a special place for CDTs, just do and could not tell you how that exactly happened...I find that I also have developed a soft spot for redfoot torts as well and their very different personalities and quirks in comparison to CDTs....I am blessed that I have the opportunity to have learned the quirks of these two species....as well as the RES turtles---pigly little critters....

I also LOVE LOVE LOVE dogs---of which I have two that are discards from other folks who thought they were absolutely adorable when they were little and then did not want to deal with them when "one day" they discovered they had no manners and should just be taken to the pound...well, I have the two huligans here and they make me crazy (absolutely crazy ) at least a million times a day each and every day---but I would have nothing else to whoop and hollar at, with, to if they had indeed been taken to the pound....so, well---they will live out their days here just as they are---pains in my rump...lol

I am a proud animal activist ; however, I believe everyone has had their own experiences with animal control, peta and the like--so not many two opinions of that "beast" will ever be the same--right?

Conservationists are a group of folks banning together for a common goal on behalf of animals---hence an animal rights group---so, to me this is not a bad thing, right?

Wildlife rehabbers are a group of folks dedicated to caring for a group of animals and rally together to educate people on the good and bad options for caring for an animal in the best manner to offer the best life for the animal, right? hence an animal rights group--so, to me this is not a bad thing, right?

PETA; completely different organization that has gone so far off the actual issue of saving animals that they are now just a silly point for an animal rights group reference, right? well to me anyhow...

Animal control; now this is a really tricky one for me---I have met some folks that wear this label, some have been the most dedicated, compassionate folks and are truly dedicated to save the animal and fully punish (with the pitiful enforcement allowed of laws to do so) the person that has created the pain, anguish and lingering death of an animal....however, I know that there are some that are nothing but idiots (this I know only of in my life by hearing others stories, thankfully not by first hand experience) however, I don't feel that this group of folks can be listed as animal rights groups---they are forced to be dog collectors/ cat collectors/ dead animal pick up crew/ and every other horrible thing that has to be dealt with by humans simply to satisfy and relieve other humans from being, well humane.

I suppose I could go on and on and I am sure you are all like, stop already....

I have a right as a great human to pretty much do whatever I want to---essentially that is if it is alright with all of the other humans-----I think that it would be a grand party if we all just realized that when this thread was started, likely that forum member, may have been in a funk, may have been feeling a bit sensitive to that human connection we all likely feel from time to time--that ever relentless need to feel free---to not feel blocked in--to not feel restricted---to wish we could TRULY be free--I know that I have those moments and I am not entirely a weirdo--so I am confident some of us have had that same moment....

I sometimes look at the CDTs here and feel really sad that they are no longer able to walk for miles --on their own desire--and in which ever direction they desire or are driven to---alas, I know in my right mind that these days a number of lethal obstacles are in their path--relentless obstacles, selfish obstacles, obstacles of our human progress....but it does not change the idealistic fantasy daydreams I have of what it must have been like for them to have in the past actually tasted that sense of free to do.....now, yes, they lounge about, they have food brought to them, they have soaks, they have a nice warm and soft rubbermaid tub waiting for them when there is a need to tuck into the house for awhile (or a few months)....but man, I know that as a simple human--I have a deep rooted evolutionary seed that will forever try to grow a bit---to try to capture moments of freedom---to capture moments of oneness from time to time to refuel my soul---well, before I am ruffled back into this worlds reality and back to it I must go....

So for tonight, I wish to be a compassionate human (while I still have some) and feel empathy for the forum member here who simply shared a moment with us and say to you, yes--there are times when the raw, simple human here absolutely "feels" very unethical for thinking I am in any way a comparison to the wild for these creatures that have made it millions of years much better off without the human interference than they are now faring with us trying to clean up some of our messy handy work....I would in a second, trade hosting them for times to change to go back to there being a norm of wild vs a norm of captive....I would love to return to simply being able to be out hiking and being blessed with seeing one in its own home--the wild.

Now, before anyone bothers to admonish me as one of the freak animal rights activists---let me say, I am too darn grown and too darn old to be upset by negative narrow minded comments, but will always LOVE to encounter those that are open minded to others views and feelings without mistaking those varied views and feelings as a personal attack....

Once again Angela, you have taken everything I wished I could say, and put it down so eloquently on paper. That was a wonderful post....thank you.

Yes I agree, Angela is always very great with her posts. She always explains everything perfect

 

[Tortus]

*Catches cookie crumbs*

That is an excellent post. Very well stated.

One argument from some that gets me though is stating that by being in our care, they're free from parasites, predators, foul weather, etc.

I really think this is one of the worst ways to justify keeping them in our care. I don't believe they know any of that when they're trying to get lose from their enclosures and obtain their natural range. I've thought the same thing myself for years, but now it just feels like I was trying to supplement my desire to keep them as pets. All that talk is just for our peace of mind. Not theirs.

 

[Floof]

The brain fails me on forming words to respond right now. Darn it. lol.

One thing I wanted to say: Maybe my understanding here is limited, but, from where I stand, there seems to be a drastic difference between Animal Rights and Animal Welfare...

AR brings you people like PETA and HSUS who take it too far. Animals deserve human rights... Like lawyers. Humans shouldn't have any hand in any captive animal... Not even dogs, cats, cattle. Forget hunting for sustenance. That's as bad as murder. For all intents and purposes, HSUS and PETA appear to believe that animals are better off put to sleep than in captivity. Forget having them "grandfathered" in.

Animal Welfare, on the other hand, brings you people who care about the actual welfare, the actual quality of life, of animals. They don't seek to ban your ability to have a dog or enjoy the majesty that is the satisfied and well-kept captive snake, lizard, tortoise. They seek to educate and ensure that those captive animals ARE given the care they deserve.

Again, maybe my definition of these things is limited, but I wanted to share my understanding of what exactly AR and AW are. In hopes of understanding each other better.

Oh... And chocolate chip all the way.