HELP Please!! (lethargic baby)

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Hey guys. I know I've posted alot about my baby but he really needs help. I don't think he has hatching failure syndrome, and if he does there is something more to it. He really needs help and i dont know how much longer he will make it. Ive typed this once before but lost all my progress so i am cutting to the chase. If you need more information please ask. Your help is really needed and would be appreciated.

Ive had him for 5 days. I purchased him from backwater reptiles and he was shipped from Florida to Kansas. His tank is setup is in the parameters of the info here on tortoise forum. He is about 2 weeks old, 2" long, and a sulcata. He is soaked about 3 times a day for various time limits and is fed a tortoise diet with romaine lettuce. He takes .05 ml of amoxcicillin 2 every day for a RI. He possibly also has MBD and hatching failure syndrome. His symptoms include....

1) Dark brown discoloration on the shell and body.
2) He refuses to eat or drink on his own, and usually this is chalked up to loss of appetiet but its not. If i hand feed him lettuce or spoon feed him mush he eats like a beast!! If you were to look at him then you wouldnt suspect he is sick. Otherwise he does seem uninterested in eating on his own, and he only 'drinks' during soaks.
3) He hasnt pooped more than once in the 5 days I've had him. When he did poop it was small.
4) He is very lehargic and doenst walk alot. When he does walk he moves an inch, rests, moves, rests, and so on. Sometimes when he moves it seems panicky and desperate and when he moves like this it usually results with him falling over.
5) He just seems overall uninterested in anything a tortoise is suposed to like.
6) pyramiding

Please please please help me! The reason i cant just say it is HFS is because these symptoms usually only set in in 10-14 month old torts. Please feel free to ask any and every question you have. Me and my baby really need help.

Thanks.
-Vanessa
 

SweetGreekTorts

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The Failing Syndrom you mention actually affects younger torts, not just ones over 10 months old. Hatchlings are very fragile during their first 6-12 months, and can quickly develop poor health for a variety of reasons.

You didn't mention anything about the habitat you keep him in, other than saying you followed parameters of info from this Forum. What kind of substrate, lights, temperatures, and humidity does it have? Pictures would be even more helpful.

You should definitely vary the diet. Romaine lettuce and pellet food alone are not providing all the nutrients the tortoise needs. The main diet should be grasses, weeds, and broadleaf greens.

I've never purchased from Backwater Reptiles, but most of those types of places have lots of negative reviews from selling sick tortoises. 2 weeks old is really young to be shipping a tortoise to a new tortoise keeper, in my opinion. Regular breeders wait longer to ship to ensure the tortoise is eating and growing healthy so it's better established. 2 weeks is also too young for any type of pyramiding, and too young to have MBD.

Can you post photos of the tortoise, and it's enclosure? That will help us to know more and we can provide better assistance.

Did you take him to a vet and they diagnosed the RI?
 
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He definately has some form of pyramiding. My mother is a doctor but has dabbled in veternary practices and she diagnosed him and prescribed his medication. He lives in a cement mixing container and his substrate is cypress mulch. His cage temps are always at 85 degrees with basking temps of 100 and humidity of 80%. Its not just romaine lettuce I'm feeding but that and tortoise pellets is all he is willing to eat. It is winter so there are no grasses and weeds growing where i live currently, but his tortoise diet is for grasslands species to help make up for it. He has a UVB buld and a 100wt basking bulb. I use regular artificial lighting to light the rest of the cage. From what I've read i assumed it only got this bad in older torts.
 
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I also dont know how old he is I just assumed 2-3 wks because of his size, i dont really know how hatchlings grow.
 

SweetGreekTorts

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He definately has some form of pyramiding. My mother is a doctor but has dabbled in veternary practices and she diagnosed him and prescribed his medication. He lives in a cement mixing container and his substrate is cypress mulch. His cage temps are always at 85 degrees with basking temps of 100 and humidity of 80%. Its not just romaine lettuce I'm feeding but that and tortoise pellets is all he is willing to eat. It is winter so there are no grasses and weeds growing where i live currently, but his tortoise diet is for grasslands species to help make up for it. He has a UVB buld and a 100wt basking bulb. I use regular artificial lighting to light the rest of the cage. From what I've read i assumed it only got this bad in older torts.
Sounds like your setup is okay. Just need to work on the diet when you can. It's very possible that you just bought a sick tortoise. Have you contacted Backwater Reptiles about the tort's condition?

It could just be a lot of stress. The tortoise is in a new environment and trying to adjust, plus the medications can be stressful. I'm not a vet, so I'll let other members chime in with other ideas about the RI. MBD, from what I have learned, is caused by long-term poor care, poor humidity, poor diet, poor lighting.
 

Unkapunka

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To me it sounds like your tort is a little older. This site is the best help there is. I hope your little tort will be fine. Mine is only 6 months old, i worry constantly.
 

Wright78

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Others have suggest carrot juice soaks on other threads to help get him going. I am no expert but have read this on TFO before. Good luck.
 

thelifeofbuttons

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I'm sorry to hear your tort is not doing well. :( Sounds like you're working really hard to take care of you little guy, and I'm sure he appreciates it. Here in California, we have local Turtle and Tortoise Club chapters, and they provide lists of recommended vets in our local area that specialize in turtles an tortoises... I did a quick search for something similar in Kansas, and I didn't see anything like that near you, but I was able to find a list of rescues, and they may have some recommendations for vets that are knowledgeable with tortoises. General vets don't always have the knowledge to properly treat tortoises,as they are considered exotic pets, and not something they see often. If you need to take him to someone who specializes in tortoise medicine, I'd check with one of these rescues http://www.tortoise.com/turtle-rescue-centers-in-usa.html

Also, in regards to providing him with a variety of foods, I was reading in another thread how a lot of local Asian and Mexican markets can provide greens that are hard to find in the regular grocery stores. Just double check against the list of appropriate foods specific to Sulcatas provided at the top of this section. Good Luck!
 

KarenSoCal

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Vanessa, you need to be following the advice given to you by members of this forum, and following it precisely.

Have you been doing the carrot baby food soaks? You said Pip will drink in his soak. Drinking the carrot mix will help him.

Members have also suggested (in other instances) putting non-flavored Pedialite in the soak. It helps keep his electrolytes in balance.

As others have said, I truly doubt that your baby is only 2-3 weeks old. The fact that he was dry started, and in poor health when you got him, indicates to me that his normal growth was stunted. I don't think a 2 week old could have pyramiding, much less MBD. At 2 weeks, their scutes have barely begun to grow. Since we still don't have a picture of him, I would guess maybe you are seeing uneven growth lines.

Also, in one post you said you moved him around his enclosure so "he could get everything he'd get if he was walking". Please don't do that. Every time you reach in and pick him up unneccessarily you stress him, along with letting crucial heat and humidity escape the habitat.

I also wonder if he should be on the antibiotic. True, better safe than sorry, but antibiotics are hard on torts. They cause many (most?) torts to be lethargic and lose appetite, as well as possibly causing diarrhea, which steals water from his body that so desperately needs it. Please, I mean no disrespect to your mom, but "dabbling in veterinary" doesn't mean she knows torts.

Please, read and reread the care sheets, and follow advice from experienced keepers. It is the only chance Pip has for survival.

I am not a keeper who is qualified to advise you; these are my thoughts and impressions. I'll tag some folks who know their stuff, and can help you. Stay away from other online info...guaranteed it is most likely wrong!

@Chasen tell her about carrot soaks
@Yvonne G
@wellington
@Tom

Please, if I said anything downright wrong to Vanessa, please tell both of us. I want the best for little Pip!
 

Tom

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Vanessa, you seem to have the wrong idea about a few things...

  • HFS is really Breeder Failure Syndrome. It is most commonly seen in the first few weeks. Most of them that make it to 10-14 months old are not suffering from organ failure due to chronic dehydration as a brand new hatchling.
  • Darkening all over can be staining from the substrate, or it could be the natural "sun tan" babies get when they start seeing the sun and UV. A picture would help us determine what is going on there. When it is advanced BFS, only the plastron gets darker and looks "bruised".
  • Lack of appetite is often due to temps. What are your four temps and what heating and lighting equipment are you using to maintain these? Warm side, cool side, basking area and overnight low? Open top or closed chamber? What is the room temp where the enclosure sits?
  • Babies cannot handle meds. Most of the time administering any sort of injection begins a downward spiral. I don't know why you've decided to administer Amoxy, but it might be the death of your tortoise. None of the symptoms you listed make me think RI, and if it is an RI, Amoxy would not be the drug of choice. A tiny little babies already taxed system cannot handle harsh drugs.
  • What type of UV are you using? The no walking followed by panicky walking makes me think pain. Could be injection site pain, or it could be eye burning pain. The fact that he'll eat when hand fed, but not go get it on his own also makes me think there might be eye damage.
  • If he's only two inches long and a couple of weeks old, there isn't enough time or growth to see any pyramiding.
  • Your info is contradicting itself. You say we wouldn't think he was sick when looking at him, but then you say he's darker, pyramided, and doesn't walk, or panics. You are treating with the wrong medication for an RI, but there are no RI symptoms. You say pyramiding, when he's not old enough or grown enough to show any. I don't know what is going on, but you seem to be sort of "all over the place".
  • There is no need to soak 3 times a day. Once is enough.
Let's start with answering these few question here in this post and go from there. Take a deep breath and relax a bit. We'll get this one figured out.
 

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What Karen has said is spot on. Are you maintaining a closed chamber?? Pics posted will go a long way to helping you. I purchased a hatchling that was failing. I housed him to the specs suggested on this forum and he still wasn't doing well. I really thought I was just keeping him comfortable until the inevitable end. Until a carrot soak was suggested to me. At first I thought, how odd, but I had absolutely nothing to lose. I tried it immediately and after the first 3 soaks there was a marked improvement. I repeated it again (I don't remember if it was a week or a few weeks later). As a result, his activity level and appetite went up to what it should have been. He is now thriving and has doubled his weight in a few months. Now at 102 grams. Get gerbers carrot baby food in the jar. I liked to warm up the food by setting it in heated water ahead of time so that it was easier to mix with my warmed soak water without dropping the temp of that soak. It's a half and half mix and as it worked out, my soak bowl held the perfect 50/50 at the right level for soaking. I lucked out there. lol I soaked for 30 min each day for three days in a row. It was the miracle we needed. BTW, I do my soaking in the enclosure to help maintain the warmth of the soak. Hope this helps.
 

Toddrickfl1

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Everything you described sounds like a Tort that's getting used to it's new surroundings, and if you only had it 5 days that would have sense. Why did you put the Tortoise on antibiotics so soon after getting it?
 
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Okay, I will try to answer everyone's questions. I no longer think he is 2-3 wks old. I just assumed because I'm used to the growth rates of other animals. That was an amateur mistake. Yesterday he wasn't doing good so I mainly overreacted about everything because his health was declining. That's why I made this long post. There was a snow storm here so we haven't been able to get carrot baby food nor Pedialyte. He has a partially covered encloser and it works just as well as a closed one, keeping it 80% humidity. I do not handle him but I do move him in and out of the cage for necessary things such as his medicine and soaks. The room he is kept in is a constant 85degrees with a cool side in the high 70's and a hot side around 88. His basking temp is near 100. His eyes were swollen shut and he had an itchy/runny nose with a squeak which is why he is on meds. I can take him off, but to me, it seems it is helping. His symptoms are really confusing even for me. I don't even know what's going on anymore. So many people are telling me so many different things and it is just overwhelming. Like I said I was panicky when I wrote this so I'm sorry. I commonly contradict myself in daily life and am very anxious. I am sorry for portraying myself like a crazy person. I'm obviously very confused. So is he sick? Some people tell me this is normal for a baby others tell me he is sick. I just want to know what's happening. Thank you guys for being patient.
 
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Okay, I will try to answer everyone's questions. I no longer think he is 2-3 wks old. I just assumed because I'm used to the growth rates of other animals. That was an amateur mistake. Yesterday he wasn't doing good so I mainly overreacted about everything because his health was declining. That's why I made this long post. There was a snow storm here so we haven't been able to get carrot baby food nor Pedialyte. He has a partially covered encloser and it works just as well as a closed one, keeping it 80% humidity. I do not handle him but I do move him in and out of the cage for necessary things such as his medicine and soaks. The room he is kept in is a constant 85degrees with a cool side in the high 70's and a hot side around 88. His basking temp is near 100. His eyes were swollen shut and he had an itchy/runny nose with a squeak which is why he is on meds. I can take him off, but to me, it seems it is helping. His symptoms are really confusing even for me. I don't even know what's going on anymore. So many people are telling me so many different things and it is just overwhelming. Like I said I was panicky when I wrote this so I'm sorry. I commonly contradict myself in daily life and am very anxious. I am sorry for portraying myself like a crazy person. I'm obviously very confused. So is he sick? Some people tell me this is normal for a baby others tell me he is sick. I just want to know what's happening. Thank you guys for being patient.

Also he shows no uncomfortableness when he is picked up. He doesn't hide or suck into his shell. He likes being stroked during soaks and stuff like that. I wouldn't do it if he was upset
 

Markw84

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@haroldthehermann The two single most common things that sicken / kill baby tortoises are improper heat, and dehydration. Cooler temperatures also dramatically affect the immune system. So when you combine a tortoise that has been kept too cold with medications, you have a potentially lethal combination. Cooler temps and a slower metabolism, means drugs are cleared from the system at a much slower rate - so overdose becomes a real concern when even knowledgeable vets prescribe dosages, yet are not in control of the actual temps the tortoise is kept. Combine that with dehydrated states, where drugs cannot be metabolized and cleared normally, and you have an often lethal combination. On top of that, you have a very small tortoise where dosages have extremely small margins. Also a penicillin drug would rarely be used on a tortoise without a culture and knowledge of the presence and type of a bacterial based problem. How are you administering the meds? If injecting ask your mom if she is familiar with the renal portal system tortoises have.

A covered tank, tub, or tote is never the same thing as a closed chamber. Controlling escaping warm (and humid) air is next to impossible. The slightest crack or hole will start creating a drafting effect. Warm air always rises. Temperature differentials are created. Sulcatas "know" to push into dark holes and bury into the ground because where they come from - that is always well over 80° and humid. IN our homes and enclosures, they don't know that those are the coldest spots. Use a heat gun and check the body temp of your tortoise where it has pushed away to sleep. You will be surprised. I would not let your tortoise get below 85° as the very minimum. A sick tortoise, and certainly one on meds, should be kept at the more upper range of their temperature ranges. I like to keep a sick tortoise at 90°. Humidity is also the fist thing to get sucked out of an enclosure that is not sealed well. Especially at the lower levels where the tortoise is. You must keep a damp substrate there to counteract that. But that must be with the warm temps in those "coldest" parts of the enclosure. The COLDest spot you can find in the dark corners of the enclosure cannot be below 85°

Any improvement you have seen in your tortoise is because of the efforts you have already made to improve temps and humidity and hydration. Keep that up and keep improving that environment. IF you tortoise does have the start of a RI, that is the best way to treat it anyway. Not with meds.

Find a way to post pictures and we can give you much better help.

Keep up your very diligent efforts. Your tortoise is lucky he has you!
 
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