Help with identification and habitat please!

[JessM158]

Hello all,

I’m new to the forum.
I have these two tortoises, I got them believing they are Tunisian tortoises- I specifically wanted a breed that doesn’t brumate. However someone told me they thought they were actually Ibera. I just want to make sure I’m doing right by them - I’m always trying to learn and do better.

I’ve looked at the differences and seems like the nuances are so slight! They do seem to have a more yellow tone to their colour with heavy black on their shell and underneath.. and that’s about all the differences I can tell also. Do they look underweight?

I’m also wanting to upgrade their enclosure. They are currently in a tortoise table that is around 6 x 5 feet. I want to expand this to around 9 x 4, am just trying to find somewhere to get it made that doesn’t cost an absolute fortune! I use topsoil as substrate with a few large rocks, some pebbles and slate around, a couple of hides. I also use an Arcadia combi bulb, and a ceramic heater.

But my research has shown some conflicting info on here..
I’ve seen comments/recommendations to never use sand as it can cause impactions, but in a guide for Greek tortoises I read play or mason sand was good to use. Similarly I was told years ago not to use Coco Coir as it holds too much moisture for them, but have seen it recommended on here a lot. Plus I’m confused about the bulb!

Anyway, any and all help and advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Hello from a fellow uk member! I’m SO glad you’ve made your way here! You’re discovering firsthand how conflicting care information is out there for tortoises, I too was super confused when first looking to this forum, this place cleared up so much confusion, folks here back their information up and offer links to so much in depth information, it truly gives you the best opportunity to make an informed decision on their care

In terms of ID, I believe they are some kind of Greek, someone more experienced can ID the specific subspecies for you hopefully

The one who’s plastron I can see in the photo does look a little skinny on her back legs, I think both their beaks could do with taking down a little bit too, but they aren’t too bad

First priority is going to be setting them up in two separate enclosures,
tortoise of any species shouldn’t be housed in pairs under any circumstances, even breeding pairs should only be housed together during their mating period, or alternatively two females and one male as a trio. They’re just such territorial, even without obvious bullying signs, the stress of a pair dynamic can really take its toll
Small groups are ok when there’s lots of land and the correct male to female ratio.

I wouldn’t recommend top soil as substrate, unless you’ve composted yourself, there’s no way to know each and every ingredient in the bags, it also creates a rather muddy consistency when trying to add the moisture you need.

Sand can be problematic in captivity from impactions to eye and skin irritation, it’s not an issue in the wild, but our captive care can never 100% perfectly mimic the wild, there’s many on going debates about the use of sand in captivity, this is a more recent discussion and makes a good read

Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

I wanted to move this here so not hijack the other thread. I hope to have a pleasant and meaningful conversation about this subject. Here is Tom's response to this video. "Some of this is good info, but you and everyone reading should be aware of the problems with this info. 1. No mention...

tortoiseforum.org

This one discusses the use of coir a little more in depth for you, specifically my response #25 on page two

Updated TortoiseTrust substrate post

https://www.tortoisetrust.com/post/understanding-terrarium-substrates-updated?fbclid=Iwb21leANDNQljbGNrA0My9GV4dG4DYWVtAjExAAEectiMcB8UYec9bCvZzjH88JHa9obC1b9-auuavyIc1rz6AjJUpe0symoikok_aem_8c5LutNkf0FVmo4VQ74rjQ Sounded like they took a jab at TFO towards the end: "Finally, disregard the...

tortoiseforum.org

Coir is fine to use if you’re wanting a soil like substrate, but you might prefer using fine grade orchid bark.

In terms of lighting I would look into upgrading, It’s best going with a separate uvb and heat set up(still mounted close) having combined heat and uv, means when adjusting your height to create the desired basking temperature, you’re messing with your UVI zone, they are much more desiccating on the shell and their uv output often very unreliable.
There’s the added fact of uv timing, with the uv timing, every other source of information will tell you 12hours of uv. This is essentially an old fashioned rule that has stuck with a lot of keepers, it stems from the presumption that once the basking light or ambient lighting is on, ie the ‘sun’, that uv must coexist the same amount of hours. Fact is, uv rays only peak for a few hours a day, anyone with a uv meter will confirm this. No tortoise is blasted with 12 hours of uv in the wild, therefore it’s not necessary in captivity. Whilst not necessarily dangerous, it’s potentially annoying to the tortoise to have 12hours on uv in the enclosure.
The right uv bulbs are much more expensive to replace once their uv strength diminishes, so it’s definitely best having it on a 4 hour timer that provides them with all the uv they need, saving your bulb life.
Then some cheaper led lighting for your ambient 12 hour light cycle as well as the basking light on the same 12hrs, your ceramics(if needed) will run 24/7 on a thermostat, hope that all makes sense
The most recommended up to date indoor uv option is t5 tube fluorescent bulbs, they disperse the uv light over a much wider area. Recommended brands are Arcadia proT5 kit 12% or zoo med reptisun t5 10.0(hood usually sold separate) we personally use Arcadia.

I’m going to include some links below you’ll hopefully find useful to look through.

I know this says Russians and hermans, but care is very similar, this thread covers correct equipment(uvb, heating bulbs, lighting etc, definitely double check bulb types, folks unfortunately sold the wrong ones often), correct levels, appropriately maintaining the humidity, safe substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything, and a handy diet link

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

This includes lots of inspiration for an adult set up both indoors and out! The indoor bit has some good ideas to tackle indoor space whilst still providing the needed roaming room! Check comments too, I’m always adding to it, I have a huge back log I need to add. 9x4 would be perfect for each! Perhaps you could build a double decker or get on commissioned

Enclosure inspiration

Howdy folks! Hope everyone is well! As you all know, I’m a big fan of making threads that cater more towards visual learners like myself, I’ve really been wanting to create a thread full of adult enclosure inspiration for a while now, I’ve managed to find some great references over time! I do...

tortoiseforum.org

Now that housing thread discusses an open top set up, which is fine for adult tortoises, but I will say, knowing how cold our uk winters get, for those who don’t brumate their temperate species, they can really struggle keeping their temperates where needed, a cover can come in really handy for maintaining your heat, the most efficient closed set ups are melamine/pvc vivs. A place called Southdown aquatics actually does custom sized vivs in the uk, not the cheapest but very well made

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

Lastly, this one here is probably most important to go over and keep on hand, it’ll help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I always encourage double checking purchases on the forum too before buying

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

Phew! Really hope this all helps! I know it’s a lot to go over sorrybut take all the time you need! They’ll always be folks to help with any further questions! We can break things down bit by bit, and help step by step. Welcome to the forum

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Oh also please let me know if you’d like uk links to specific products! Happy to help wherever I can

 

[JessM158]

Hello from a fellow uk member! I’m SO glad you’ve made your way here! You’re discovering firsthand how conflicting care information is out there for tortoises, I too was super confused when first looking to this forum, this place cleared up so much confusion, folks here back their information up and offer links to so much in depth information, it truly gives you the best opportunity to make an informed decision on their care

Yes I am overwhelmed at all the information, it’s all so different than the info I was given when I got them! I thought I was doing things right, turns out it’s all wrong

The one who’s plastron I can see in the photo does look a little skinny on her back legs, I think both their beaks could do with taking down a little bit too, but they aren’t too bad

These pictures were actually taken just after we got back from the vets, who said they were fine weight (but I just thought their legs looked a tad skinny - although my reading is suggesting that Tunisians are known to be finer built?) and had trimmed their beaks - but all she trimmed was some off the edges she said she didn’t think they needed much length off. Again this seemed a bit weird to me, but she was an exotic vet so I took her word for it!

First priority is going to be setting them up in two separate enclosures,
tortoise of any species shouldn’t be housed in pairs under any circumstances, even breeding pairs should only be housed together during their mating period, or alternatively two females and one male as a trio. They’re just such territorial, even without obvious bullying signs, the stress of a pair dynamic can really take its toll
Small groups are ok when there’s lots of land and the correct male to female ratio.

Yikes. They’ve been together for 9 years! I got them from the breeder who said they’d be fine together. I do not have space to separate them, as it is in sacrificing my bedroom to give them more space but I simply don’t have anywhere to put a second enclosure now I don’t know what to do. Oh dear. I truly thought they were okay together, breeder said they weren’t a very aggressive breed and she had them coexisting happily in all sorts of pairs.

I wouldn’t recommend top soil as substrate, unless you’ve composted yourself, there’s no way to know each and every ingredient in the bags, it also creates a rather muddy consistency when trying to add the moisture you need.

Yes it gets very muddy! But I think they aren’t supposed to be in a very humid climate?

Sand can be problematic in captivity from impactions to eye and skin irritation, it’s not an issue in the wild, but our captive care can never 100% perfectly mimic the wild, there’s many on going debates about the use of sand in captivity, this is a more recent discussion and makes a good read

Tom's response to "Garden State Tortoise" Video

I wanted to move this here so not hijack the other thread. I hope to have a pleasant and meaningful conversation about this subject. Here is Tom's response to this video. "Some of this is good info, but you and everyone reading should be aware of the problems with this info. 1. No mention...

tortoiseforum.org

This one discusses the use of coir a little more in depth for you, specifically my response #25 on page two

Updated TortoiseTrust substrate post

https://www.tortoisetrust.com/post/understanding-terrarium-substrates-updated?fbclid=Iwb21leANDNQljbGNrA0My9GV4dG4DYWVtAjExAAEectiMcB8UYec9bCvZzjH88JHa9obC1b9-auuavyIc1rz6AjJUpe0symoikok_aem_8c5LutNkf0FVmo4VQ74rjQ Sounded like they took a jab at TFO towards the end: "Finally, disregard the...

tortoiseforum.org

Coir is fine to use if you’re wanting a soil like substrate, but you might prefer using fine grade orchid bark.

I was told not to use coir as it’s dangerous and holds the humidity too much. Gosh l literally have everything back to front my poor torts.

In terms of lighting I would look into upgrading, It’s best going with a separate uvb and heat set up(still mounted close) having combined heat and uv, means when adjusting your height to create the desired basking temperature, you’re messing with your UVI zone, they are much more desiccating on the shell and their uv output often very unreliable.
There’s the added fact of uv timing, with the uv timing, every other source of information will tell you 12hours of uv. This is essentially an old fashioned rule that has stuck with a lot of keepers, it stems from the presumption that once the basking light or ambient lighting is on, ie the ‘sun’, that uv must coexist the same amount of hours. Fact is, uv rays only peak for a few hours a day, anyone with a uv meter will confirm this. No tortoise is blasted with 12 hours of uv in the wild, therefore it’s not necessary in captivity. Whilst not necessarily dangerous, it’s potentially annoying to the tortoise to have 12hours on uv in the enclosure.
The right uv bulbs are much more expensive to replace once their uv strength diminishes, so it’s definitely best having it on a 4 hour timer that provides them with all the uv they need, saving your bulb life.
Then some cheaper led lighting for your ambient 12 hour light cycle as well as the basking light on the same 12hrs, your ceramics(if needed) will run 24/7 on a thermostat, hope that all makes sense
The most recommended up to date indoor uv option is t5 tube fluorescent bulbs, they disperse the uv light over a much wider area. Recommended brands are Arcadia proT5 kit 12% or zoo med reptisun t5 10.0(hood usually sold separate) we personally use Arcadia.

Omg wow that’s all so so different I feel so awful. They have a combi bulb on 12 hours. I’ve no idea how I’m going to manage to sort all of this out

I’m going to include some links below you’ll hopefully find useful to look through.

I know this says Russians and hermans, but care is very similar, this thread covers correct equipment(uvb, heating bulbs, lighting etc, definitely double check bulb types, folks unfortunately sold the wrong ones often), correct levels, appropriately maintaining the humidity, safe substrates, there’s lots of visual examples for everything, and a handy diet link

Housing adult Russian and Hermans indoors

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information an example of an appropriate indoor set up for an older Herman/russian. As much as it’s encouraged to have tortoises in a safe outdoor enclosure, I understand being from the uk myself, that some climates make it difficult to...

tortoiseforum.org

This includes lots of inspiration for an adult set up both indoors and out! The indoor bit has some good ideas to tackle indoor space whilst still providing the needed roaming room! Check comments too, I’m always adding to it, I have a huge back log I need to add. 9x4 would be perfect for each! Perhaps you could build a double decker or get on commissioned

Enclosure inspiration

Howdy folks! Hope everyone is well! As you all know, I’m a big fan of making threads that cater more towards visual learners like myself, I’ve really been wanting to create a thread full of adult enclosure inspiration for a while now, I’ve managed to find some great references over time! I do...

tortoiseforum.org

Great I’ll have a look through for some inspo.

Now that housing thread discusses an open top set up, which is fine for adult tortoises, but I will say, knowing how cold our uk winters get, for those who don’t brumate their temperate species, they can really struggle keeping their temperates where needed, a cover can come in really handy for maintaining your heat, the most efficient closed set ups are melamine/pvc vivs. A place called Southdown aquatics actually does custom sized vivs in the uk, not the cheapest but very well made

Visual inspiration

Hi guys! I’ve had some lovely messages complimenting me on my care sheets I made for all the visuals they include! That makes me so happy because as a visual learner myself, that was my goal🥰 I’ve recently had some requests for some more visual inspiration for set ups that can house babies/...

tortoiseforum.org

Lastly, this one here is probably most important to go over and keep on hand, it’ll help you avoid the wrong bulbs, substrates, housing etc, I always encourage double checking purchases on the forum too before buying

Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

tortoiseforum.org

Phew! Really hope this all helps! I know it’s a lot to go over sorrybut take all the time you need! They’ll

Thank you so much for such a detailed reply I really appreciate it l!
Although now I’m in a tailspin as I’ve no clue how to fix all the issues. I thought I was doing everything okay for them and turns out it’s all awful

I don’t think I’ll be able to house them separately and I’ve no idea what to do

Anyway, I’ll work towards improving their current environment and do what I can for them. I feel absolutely awful

 

[zovick]

Yes I am overwhelmed at all the information, it’s all so different than the info I was given when I got them! I thought I was doing things right, turns out it’s all wrong

These pictures were actually taken just after we got back from the vets, who said they were fine weight (but I just thought their legs looked a tad skinny - although my reading is suggesting that Tunisians are known to be finer built?) and had trimmed their beaks - but all she trimmed was some off the edges she said she didn’t think they needed much length off. Again this seemed a bit weird to me, but she was an exotic vet so I took her word for it!





Yikes. They’ve been together for 9 years! I got them from the breeder who said they’d be fine together. I do not have space to separate them, as it is in sacrificing my bedroom to give them more space but I simply don’t have anywhere to put a second enclosure now I don’t know what to do. Oh dear. I truly thought they were okay together, breeder said they weren’t a very aggressive breed and she had them coexisting happily in all sorts of pairs.

Yes it gets very muddy! But I think they aren’t supposed to be in a very humid climate?


I was told not to use coir as it’s dangerous and holds the humidity too much. Gosh l literally have everything back to front my poor torts.


Omg wow that’s all so so different I feel so awful. They have a combi bulb on 12 hours. I’ve no idea how I’m going to manage to sort all of this out


Great I’ll have a look through for some inspo.

Thank you so much for such a detailed reply I really appreciate it l!
Although now I’m in a tailspin as I’ve no clue how to fix all the issues. I thought I was doing everything okay for them and turns out it’s all awful

I don’t think I’ll be able to house them separately and I’ve no idea what to do

Anyway, I’ll work towards improving their current environment and do what I can for them. I feel absolutely awful

Can you simply return one of them and make life better for the one you choose to keep?

 

[JessM158]

Can you simply return one of them and make life better for the one you choose to keep?

I’ve had them for 9 years, I can’t even remember the name of the breeder I got them from

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

Yes I am overwhelmed at all the information, it’s all so different than the info I was given when I got them! I thought I was doing things right, turns out it’s all wrong

These pictures were actually taken just after we got back from the vets, who said they were fine weight (but I just thought their legs looked a tad skinny - although my reading is suggesting that Tunisians are known to be finer built?) and had trimmed their beaks - but all she trimmed was some off the edges she said she didn’t think they needed much length off. Again this seemed a bit weird to me, but she was an exotic vet so I took her word for it!





Yikes. They’ve been together for 9 years! I got them from the breeder who said they’d be fine together. I do not have space to separate them, as it is in sacrificing my bedroom to give them more space but I simply don’t have anywhere to put a second enclosure now I don’t know what to do. Oh dear. I truly thought they were okay together, breeder said they weren’t a very aggressive breed and she had them coexisting happily in all sorts of pairs.

Yes it gets very muddy! But I think they aren’t supposed to be in a very humid climate?


I was told not to use coir as it’s dangerous and holds the humidity too much. Gosh l literally have everything back to front my poor torts.


Omg wow that’s all so so different I feel so awful. They have a combi bulb on 12 hours. I’ve no idea how I’m going to manage to sort all of this out


Great I’ll have a look through for some inspo.

Thank you so much for such a detailed reply I really appreciate it l!
Although now I’m in a tailspin as I’ve no clue how to fix all the issues. I thought I was doing everything okay for them and turns out it’s all awful

I don’t think I’ll be able to house them separately and I’ve no idea what to do

Anyway, I’ll work towards improving their current environment and do what I can for them. I feel absolutely awful

Im so sorry to have overwhelmed you! It’s never easy when someone first joins

Please please please DO NOT beat yourself up!! You’re far from the first person to be led astray with outdated information and you’ll be far from the last! Everything you’ve been doing, you’ve been doing under the belief it’s what’s best for them, you’re clearly a caring individual and absolutely wouldn’t have put animals in a less than ideal living situation on purpose. For what it’s worth we’ve seen wayyyyy worse housing situations that have gone on for way longer!

If their weight is within normal range that’s absolutely fine, it could just be the angle she’s holding her legs in the photo, if she already trimmed some that’s ok to leave for now, if they were longer before it’s important to do in small steps anyway, they don’t look too bad, I think just the tops looked a smidge on the longer side.
A lot of the time vets will be giving out some rather contradictory information too, it can be tricky finding a good tortoise vet, but they can definitely come in handy if they ever need meds or anything.

Unfortunately this is a very common occurrence, especially if you got them nearly 10 years ago, tortoises simply cannot thrive in a pair, as mentioned small groups are ok under the right circumstances, this isn’t because they necessarily prefer the company, but because it doesn’t allow dominant behaviour to escalate into further aggression, a tortoise may well start following one tortoise, see another and start following them instead, that’s just one example. By nature tortoises are incredibly solitary animals, they only seek out to mate, then live primarily on their own. Have some species been documented hanging out in groups seemingly unbothered? Absolutely, but again this doesn’t mean they’re seeking out the company, rather than they are seeking out the environment in a particular hang out spot. Again this is group dynamics, not a pair. Pairs are completely unnatural, one will always be trying to compete for dominance, even if not to the naked eye, babies often stunt one another’s growth, or cause failure to thrive, this is often picked up too late, when you think everything is going fine, suddenly it isn’t. I am noticing one is smaller, are they the same gender? Bottom line It’s not worth the risk to either tortoise long term, even if you don’t see out right aggression.

Seeing as you have 9x4ft of square space, is there no way you could create two levels that stack on top of one another? There’s a few examples in the enclosure inspiration thread

No they don’t need very high humidity as adults, but they do need some moisture in the substrate, which with soils can get muddy compared to the coir, don’t feel bad about that one, that’s an easy mistake to make with how substrates are marketed, I doubt it’s caused major issues in your case

Let me know if you’d like some links, hopefully that’ll break things down a bit for you, your housing and care hasn’t been awful! Less than ideal yes, but I consider tortoises kept on pure sand in 3x2ft enclosures with one heat bulb and fed only pellets to be awful, yours is far from that I promise, don’t be so hard on yourself

With tweaks here and there, they are going to be much happier! We can all help brainstorm ideas on housing them separately, even if it means they both has less than ideal space, it’ll probably be the lesser of two evils long term

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

depending on your diy skills, These are some potential ideas(or can send to someone who can help), maybe something like this without the ramp

This one’s quite a cool design, the lower one has wheels to pull out, just bear in mind it retaining heat in our colder weather

Or you could have two custom vivs made to stack on one another, but that obviously wouldn’t be cheap

 

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Welcome to the forum!

 

[MaNaAk]

Yes I am overwhelmed at all the information, it’s all so different than the info I was given when I got them! I thought I was doing things right, turns out it’s all wrong

These pictures were actually taken just after we got back from the vets, who said they were fine weight (but I just thought their legs looked a tad skinny - although my reading is suggesting that Tunisians are known to be finer built?) and had trimmed their beaks - but all she trimmed was some off the edges she said she didn’t think they needed much length off. Again this seemed a bit weird to me, but she was an exotic vet so I took her word for it!





Yikes. They’ve been together for 9 years! I got them from the breeder who said they’d be fine together. I do not have space to separate them, as it is in sacrificing my bedroom to give them more space but I simply don’t have anywhere to put a second enclosure now I don’t know what to do. Oh dear. I truly thought they were okay together, breeder said they weren’t a very aggressive breed and she had them coexisting happily in all sorts of pairs.

Yes it gets very muddy! But I think they aren’t supposed to be in a very humid climate?


I was told not to use coir as it’s dangerous and holds the humidity too much. Gosh l literally have everything back to front my poor torts.


Omg wow that’s all so so different I feel so awful. They have a combi bulb on 12 hours. I’ve no idea how I’m going to manage to sort all of this out


Great I’ll have a look through for some inspo.

Thank you so much for such a detailed reply I really appreciate it l!
Although now I’m in a tailspin as I’ve no clue how to fix all the issues. I thought I was doing everything okay for them and turns out it’s all awful

I don’t think I’ll be able to house them separately and I’ve no idea what to do

Anyway, I’ll work towards improving their current environment and do what I can for them. I feel absolutely awful

Welcome from Essex!

I had to Greek Spur-thighed Tortoises who were together for 72 years before Daisy was put to sleep in 2022 at the age of 80. I still have Jacky (Jacqueline) who is 90 so pleased don't panic about them being together for 9 years!

Natrah