How big do they have to be?

[Candy]

How big do Sulcata's have to be to be sold in a pet store? I thought I had heard 4 inches.

 

[Tom]

That is technically the law, but they can be sold smaller if its for "educational" purposes.

 

[TortieLuver]

Yes, 4 inches is correct. Tom is also right that they can be sold smaller for educational and scientific purposes. I read this law has been created for over 30 years for tortoises and is because kids like to hold them often and little ones are more likely to carry salmonella and this was to help aid in having problems associated to this.

 

[Stephanie Logan]

I just finished that turtle/tortoise movie, Chances of the World Changing, and that 4-inch law was mentioned there as well, as a "fact" about the tortoise trade.

 

[DeanS]

I think the law is stupid...it's all about salmonella...I remember when my mom bought me tiny red eared sliders at Woolworth's and Sears back in the 70s...came in a little clear plastic bowl with an island in the middle (for basking) and a toy palm tree inserted into the island. And then a coupla kids died kissing their little turtles...

 

[reptylefreek]

when my grandparents had their petshop in the early 90's, i was told they couldn't sell the little ones cuz kids were putting them in their mouth and choking on them.... also i thought that an actual petshop couldn't carry them but a private seller could as long as they had a disclaimer about the scientific purposes thing.

 

[terryo]

It's against the law here in NY, but you can find them easily, especailly near the ferry on the Manhattan side.

 

[N2TORTS]

I think the law is stupid...it's all about salmonella...I remember when my mom bought me tiny red eared sliders at Woolworth's and Sears back in the 70s...came in a little clear plastic bowl with an island in the middle (for basking) and a toy palm tree inserted into the island. And then a coupla kids died kissing their little turtles...

Haha ... Yep Dean..I *STILL* have one of those! ( the island with the tiny palm tree! )

JD~

 

[dmmj]

we should also ban chicken,eggs, money and anything else that can cary salmonella. Won't someone think of the children?

 

[chairman]

The 4" rule was almost repealed recently. Unfortunately, the provision that dealt with the ban was omitted from the final legislation. Good thing all the tortoises I plan to get will be for the scientific purpose of determining how to raise a non-pyramided animal...

 

[reptylefreek]

The 4" rule was almost repealed recently. Unfortunately, the provision that dealt with the ban was omitted from the final legislation. Good thing all the tortoises I plan to get will be for the scientific purpose of determining how to raise a non-pyramided animal...

Good point! LOL

 

[Tom]

I researched this one at length years ago as I was in the pet trade and wanted to know if it aplied to all chelonians or just "turtles". It was very hard to find anyone who knew where the law was written and specifically what it said. The people enforcing the law had no idea where the law came from and or how or when to enforce it. Sad state.

It is my understanding that a large number of unscrupulous breeders were using old human septic tanks to house adults and baby RES. A large number of these then were contaminated with some pretty virulent strains of salmonella and who knows what else. A couple of kids got sick from inattentive parents and WHAMMO!!! New law to govern everyone!

Good thing big brother is looking out for us all. We'd wouldn't be able to survive without those knowledgeable law makers to protect us from ourselves.

 

[DeanS]

They sell baby sliders and softshells ath the little shops on Santee Alley in Downtown LA...in the same proximity as human food...

 

[tortoisenerd]

Some pet stores think if they put up a sign saying for educational purposes only, they are covered. I bought my 2 inch hatchling at a pet store and had him shipped--it was one of the rare pet stores with great reviews and that only sold captive bred animals, but I still wish I had got him directly from the breeder. Small regret though. Being a business I don't think they were following the law. If it is a breeder selling directly to people at a show for educational purposes (they don't have a business), that is ok, but the pet store putting up the sign isn't in compliance as far as I know. Dumb law. I don't think kids should be the primary caretaker of any animal until they are of an age they are capable--such as 12 or whatever. If they are young enough to put the tort in their mouth, then it should be out of reach. The putting the small turtles in the mouth thing was what I had read made this law come into effect.

 

[Kristina]

Good thing big brother is looking out for us all. We'd wouldn't be able to survive without those knowledgeable law makers to protect us from ourselves.

Kind of like how lawmakers want to ban those DANGEROUS POISON Dart Frogs!!!

(For those that don't know, Dart Frogs are only POISONOUS in the wild 5 minutes of research will teach that to any one who cares to know, which is why I think most politicians are base idiots. Sorry to any politicians that may take offense )

 

[dmmj]

Actually the main reason I found for the law was that kids would handle the turtle then put their hands in their mouth without washing first.

 

[egyptiandan]

Here is the specific rule
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=1240.62

Danny

 

[Candy]

Oh that's why it's so confusing, it's your FDA that wrote it. The reason that I was asking about it is because I went to get food for my birds at the same pet store that we bought Dale and they were selling a Sulcata baby that was smaller then Ruby when I bought her. It must have been no bigger then 2 inches long. I was surprised, but didn't know the rule so didn't know the rule. So since I now read what Danny posted no wonder it's so confusing I still don't know exactly what the law means. Can they sell this Sulcata or not?[/b]

 

[Madkins007]

There are a few parts of the law we should know...

The legal basis is indeed Salmonella (thus it is an FDA law) but as I understand it, the California Turtle and Tortoise Club was a force behind an effort to stop the over-harvesting of baby turtle and tortoises from the wild. Apparently, this was the only 'angle' that got any government interest- public safety.

By the way, Tom:
"(a)Definition. As used in this section the term "turtles" includes all animals commonly known as turtles, tortoises, terrapins, and all other animals of the order Testudinata, class Reptilia, except marine species (families Dermachelidae and Chelonidae)."

The most interesting exceptions for our purposes are the the 'scientific, etc.' bit and who can still sell them.

"(d)Exceptions. The provisions of this section are not applicable to:
(1) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs for bona fide scientific, educational, or exhibitional purposes, other than use as pets."

The classic 'except for study' exception REALLY DOES NOT EXIST for pet shops and typical buyers, and the stores are asking buyers to perjure themselves to buy a dang pet!

"(2) The sale, holding for sale, and distribution of live turtles and viable turtle eggs not in connection with a business."

This is the one that allows a lot of loopholes- good and bad. Casual breeders like most of us are not doing this as a business, so are OK. This is also how a lot of fairs, flea markets, etc. get away with it.

 

[Jacqui]

I think the law is stupid...it's all about salmonella...I remember when my mom bought me tiny red eared sliders at Woolworth's and Sears back in the 70s...came in a little clear plastic bowl with an island in the middle (for basking) and a toy palm tree inserted into the island. And then a coupla kids died kissing their little turtles...

Haha ... Yep Dean..I *STILL* have one of those! ( the island with the tiny palm tree! )

JD~

Me, too!