Hybrid box turtles

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Saloli

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actually they could sell flabts just not to customers in the state.
in either case it is just stupidity
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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Saloli said:
Though as a side note if someone has a colony of turtles from the same intergrade zone then they should maintain them as they are part of the genetic diversity in the wild. Though they should be labeled as such not passed off as one of the subspecies.

I've been thinking about this passage for the past couple days. If I go to a part of the US where the range of Terrapene carolina carolina overlaps that of T. carolina triunguis, am I going to find an entire population of intergrades? I don't think so. I think I'll find mostly easterns and three-toeds, with some intergrades mixed in. Isn't that right?
 

fbsmith3

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Depends on the dominant male in the area. It may also depend on the male that meets the most females.
 

Saloli

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GeoTerraTestudo said:
I've been thinking about this passage for the past couple days. If I go to a part of the US where the range of Terrapene carolina carolina overlaps that of T. carolina triunguis, am I going to find an entire population of intergrades? I don't think so. I think I'll find mostly easterns and three-toeds, with some intergrades mixed in. Isn't that right?

Actually in most area there will be mostly intergrades where the ranges overlap. Then there is the area of extensive inter gradation in which none can be assigned to subspecies.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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Saloli said:
GeoTerraTestudo said:
I've been thinking about this passage for the past couple days. If I go to a part of the US where the range of Terrapene carolina carolina overlaps that of T. carolina triunguis, am I going to find an entire population of intergrades? I don't think so. I think I'll find mostly easterns and three-toeds, with some intergrades mixed in. Isn't that right?

Actually in most area there will be mostly intergrades where the ranges overlap. Then there is the area of extensive inter gradation in which none can be assigned to subspecies.

Oh, wow. So those populations should be conserved as such. They're not just mixes. They are their own kind of box turtle.

So, does that mean that crossing an eastern with a three-toed in captivity, for example, does not actually produce an intergrade? If intergrades are their own kind of box turtle found in the wild, then a subspecies cross in captivity would be a cross but not an intergrade, right?
 

StudentoftheReptile

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There is a difference between the technical sense of the word, and the natural application.

Yes, a cross between a California king snake and an Eastern kingsnake would technically considered an intergrade, since both within the species of Lampropeltis getula. However, their ranges do not overlap, so natural intergrades do not occur. Any crossings would be deliberate pairings in captivity.

Then you have "natural" intergradation, such as the aforementioned box turtle crossings. Since we're talking about two sub-species crossing, there really isn't a sub-sub-species distinction (or is there?), so we just call this a naturally-occurring intergrade within the species.

But yes I agree with GTT; IF the naturally-occurring intergrade is common enough within a particular area/locale, then it warrants preservation IMHO.
 

Saloli

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GeoTerraTestudo said:
Oh, wow. So those populations should be conserved as such. They're not just mixes. They are their own kind of box turtle.

So, does that mean that crossing an eastern with a three-toed in captivity, for example, does not actually produce an intergrade? If intergrades are their own kind of box turtle found in the wild, then a subspecies cross in captivity would be a cross but not an intergrade, right?

A cross done either in captivity or in a place where the subspecies don't meet naturally would be an intraspecies ( within species) hybrid. Intergrades are not the result of one or two random matings but of continual mating over very long periods. I also condone the conservation of intergrade populations as I have stated before.

The cross of the Californian and eastern would be an intraspecies hybrid where as a the area between the desert and Californian king snakes individual would be intergrades. Intergrades are labeled simply genus species exp. Terrapene carolina. Intraspecific hybrids are labeled like interspecific exp. T. carolina carolina X T. c. triunguis.
 

GeoTerraTestudo

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Fascinating stuff, guys! Okay, so intergrades are special, naturally occurring groups with their own characteristic genotype and phenotype, which is intermediate between two adjacent and formally recognized subspecies. In contrast, a mix between two subspecies is just an artificial cross. To my mind, this means we should preserve subspecies and intergrades, but avoid artificial crossing.
 

EricIvins

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Saloli said:
actually they could sell flabts just not to customers in the state.
in either case it is just stupidity

No they cannot - You can't buy, sell, or trade Florida Box Turtles in Florida. It doesn't matter if that is out of state sales or not. The sale is technically being made in Florida. Only Ornates or Desert Box Turtles are not regulated in Florida......

http://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/managed/freshwater-turtles/
 

fbsmith3

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So if they have "Florida Box turtle/ Ornate Box turtle crosses" they can sell all the turtles they want?

Seems to be a pretty big loophole.
 

EricIvins

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fbsmith3 said:
So if they have "Florida Box turtle/ Ornate Box turtle crosses" they can sell all the turtles they want?

Seems to be a pretty big loophole.

Hybrids are usually exempt from species specific laws because they are not the species in question.......Some laws specify Hybrids, others do not......No loophole, just a literal translation of the law(s)........
 

fbsmith3

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My point is who's to know if you have a Hybrid that looks like just Florida Box turtle or a pure Florida Box turtle. I don't think it really matters, they seem to have a great reputation.
 

Saloli

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That's the point if they aren't labeled they can be passed off as non-hybrids which then can have a negative impact on the species concerned. When did they change the law? I'm just curious.

I just read the law it is the same as it was before it only says wild caught turtles not captive bred.
 

Hunahpu

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Saloli, we were talking about two very different ads. Your argument against hybridization makes a lot of sense in this case.

Saloli said:
By the way if your turtle is a natural cross between a ttbt and an ebt it's species name would be Terrapene carolina without subspecies designation (just thought you might want to know). if you know where you turtle's geographic origin is that might tell you if it is an intergrade.

I greatly appreciate the taxonomic info. She was captive born in Las Vegas. Are all TTBTxEastern boxies technically Terrapene carolina?

How would you name these Florida/Ornate mixes? I'm curious about the naming structure.
 

StudentoftheReptile

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Hunahpu said:
I greatly appreciate the taxonomic info. She was captive born in Las Vegas. Are all TTBTxEastern boxies technically Terrapene carolina?

Yep. They are both sub-species within the same species. Easterns are T. c. carolina and TTBTs are T. c. triunguis.

How would you name these Florida/Ornate mixes?

Florida x Ornate hybrid box turtles. Since those are two separate species (T. carolina and T. ornata), these would be hybrids, not intergrades. Of course, the breeder or dealer could get creative and call them something like "Flornates!"
 

Hunahpu

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StudentoftheReptile said:
Florida x Ornate hybrid box turtles. Since those are two separate species (T. carolina and T. ornata), these would be hybrids, not intergrades. Of course, the breeder or dealer could get creative and call them something like "Flornates!"

Haha. Sounds like nasal spray.
 

Saloli

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Yours sense it is not an intergrade it would be labeled Terrapene carolina carolina X Terrapene c. triunguis. As for the hybrids they would be T. carolina bauri X T. ornata ornata (assuming the nominate subspecies and not luteola was used).
 
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