Pyramiding

[Maggie Cummings]

I don't think anyone questions your experience Maggie. Some of us are just not satisfied with anecodotal evidence and have to dig deeper and ask things like "why" and "how". While some folks are fine with just taking someone's word for things, others strive to understand the mechanics behind them, going for 'accepting' to 'understanding'.

I understand your point. But...I know what I have experienced keeping numerous tortoises and working at the rescue. So basically I know what I have seen and personally experienced. But how do I get that across to people like you who need to know how or why? I just have the experience to show, basically, my word for it. There is no way for me to get my personal experience across to you or others. I know it takes those 3 things to prevent pyramiding, I have seen it and experienced it, but like I said, that's what I have for proof. My own personal experience. Actual proof or how, I can't answer that either. Why it works? Don't know, just know it does, and that's not good enough. Numerous Gopherus agassizii were raised by me, all smooth. A few Sulcata were raised by me, smooth. But realistically all I have left for proof is Bob and he was already slightly pyramided when he came to me. My box turtles are smooth, does that count?
So I continually blab about the three things in my experience that are needed to prevent pyramiding, a good varied diet, lots of exercise not just some and mega amounts of humidity. But I have no proof and I don't know how. I think I am going to add carapace pressure to that. I think Tom needs to take one of his experimental pyramiding animals and wrap a tight elastic band around it and add that to his experiment...tight wet pressure

 

[Tom]

So here we go

Tom made a definative statement in a recent thread. "Pyramiding is CAUSED by growth in the absence of sufficient humidity". I'm sure we have gotten into it before, but can anyone explain to me exactly what humidity is doing to prevent pyramiding in a tortoise. I want to know the mechanics of it all.

Danny

I've been searching for the answer to this question for 20 years. IF someone out there knows the answer, they aren't sharing it. I've heard several plausible theories over the years, but nothing definitive. Since there is no money to be made in growing a smooth pet tortoise, no one has forked over millions or billions to do the necessary research. I think we are on our own to figure this one out. Anyone got a few extra million and want to fund a research project?

In the absence of FACTS about the exact mechanisms at work we are left with cause and effect and observation. I can't tell you the exact mechanism by which a mammalian body utilizes oxygen. I know it has to do with iron and hemoglobin and cell structures, but I can't explain it, exactly. I can, however, explain in great detail what will happen if a mammal is deprived of too much of it for too long. Same story for pyramiding. I don't know the mechanism, but I do know when it does (dry) and doesn't (wet) happen.

Maggie, briefly, you ARE an expert. I have just seen things that contradict what you believe. I still think you are great and FULL of great helpful advice for people. Following YOUR program and all three of your points WILL give anyone a healthy tortoise. I have seen unhealthy, poorly cared for tortoises that were smooth because they lived in or near a swamp.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

So here we go

Tom made a definative statement in a recent thread. "Pyramiding is CAUSED by growth in the absence of sufficient humidity". I'm sure we have gotten into it before, but can anyone explain to me exactly what humidity is doing to prevent pyramiding in a tortoise. I want to know the mechanics of it all.

Danny

I've been searching for the answer to this question for 20 years. IF someone out there knows the answer, they aren't sharing it. I've heard several plausible theories over the years, but nothing definitive. Since there is no money to be made in growing a smooth pet tortoise, no one has forked over millions or billions to do the necessary research. I think we are on our own to figure this one out. Anyone got a few extra million and want to fund a research project?

In the absence of FACTS about the exact mechanisms at work we are left with cause and effect and observation. I can't tell you the exact mechanism by which a mammalian body utilizes oxygen. I know it has to do with iron and hemoglobin and cell structures, but I can't explain it, exactly. I can, however, explain in great detail what will happen if a mammal is deprived of too much of it for too long. Same story for pyramiding. I don't know the mechanism, but I do know when it does (dry) and doesn't (wet) happen.

Maggie, briefly, you ARE an expert. I have just seen things that contradict what you believe. I still think you are great and FULL of great helpful advice for people. Following YOUR program and all three of your points WILL give anyone a healthy tortoise. I have seen unhealthy, poorly cared for tortoises that were smooth because they lived in or near a swamp.

I am NOT an expert. I just have some experience.

 

[Tom]

Never thought I was Tyler.

Rapid growth is only a problem when there isn't enough of the 3 things (calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D3) needed to produce bone. If your providing enough of all 3 to keep up with the growth, than the new growth will be fine. When there isn't enough of all 3 the bone forms with what is available. When that happens the bone becomes porus (full of holes) to get the job done.

Not sure how a form fitting hide would work on influencing the shape of the shell unless it was attached to the shell permanently. As in what the Aztec did by strapping a board to a baby's forehead to make a sloping skull (it worked really well).

Not sure how you can compare hair to bone, but I guess you can. I know that low pressure brings clouds, rain and higher humidity and high pressure brings cloudless skies, no clouds and lower humidity. But other than that how does air pressure influence bone growth.

I also didn't know that bone growth was like curing cement. Bone is either growing bone or already grown bone. Growing occurs when cartiledge is replaced by bone, making the bones longer. When still growing, cartiledge is replaced faster than the bone can grow. Thats how the bones keep growing until adulthood.

All these wonderful things are happening inside the tortoise's body (not outside the body).

So again What is happening inside a tortoise that would be influenced by humidity?

Danny

I hear what you are saying and it makes sense, but it hasn't held up in the real world from my experience with desert species.

Here's a reverse question that might help shed some light. Can you explain why mine pyramided? At 12 years old and 40 pounds, I don't think anyone will argue that I grew them too fast or fed them too much. They had a varied, calcium rich diet fed daily, and regular sunshine and exercise. They spent about 3/4 of the year out in their outdoor pen in the CA sunshine. If it was sunny and over 70 they were outside in a giant pen with at least partial sun all day. They got Rep-Cal brand calcium 3-4 times a week as babies, tapering off to two times a week as they got bigger. Indoors they were kept 75-80 at night and had a 110 degree basking spot during the day if it was too cold outside. In doors and out they were kept bone dry. I soaked the babies 3-4 times a week tapering down to once or twice a week as they got bigger.

Please grill me for more info. I want to learn. I don't care whose right or wrong.

---

I have not had any problems with tortoises getting sick...hatchling to large adults....sulcatas and leopards.

That's far from what I'm talking about. I'm saying they shouldn't be kept constantly (as in, 24/7) on a wet substrate (and/or 100% humidity), which is what some people think prevents pyramiding. I have played around with that idea, and it wasn't pretty. I'm sure someone will do it and say I'm wrong - I'm just saying when I did it, I was losing babies, and there was no other explanation than that for me. It's a mistake I would never test again, that's for sure.

In the Leopard tortoise book by Fife, it shows very clearly how to build a "humid hide" and combine it with a dry area to produce smooth babies. It shows it also in the Star Tortoises book by Jerry Fife. If it is tried that way, it works. I'm not sure why more humidity or moisture is needed, and to me, adds risk. That's all.

-Pretty sulcatas, by the way.

Tyler, I hear what you are saying. It CAN go too far. 100% humidity ALL the time is surely not the way to go. I have been keeping my 3 year old ONE (only one, so far) that way since I got her at 12 weeks and no problems yet. My hatchlings are being kept that way too. They are a month old now and growing and thriving. I'm not saying it wasn't a problem for you and I agree that there needs to be some sort of balance, but the extremes haven't been a problem for me. I found that a humid hide box alone did nothing to stop a tortoise that was already pyramiding. If they are started that way (with a humid hide box) from babies, maybe that would be enough. I think I might be getting away with the extremes (swampiness) because when mine come out for daily sun, its very hot and dry. Gives their lungs and nasal passages time to dry out. Babies are only out for an hour or two a day. Older one 2-4 hours on average. The other 22 hours are spent in 80-90% humidity with a 99-100% humidity hide box.

---

All good answers but none of them answer my question

I want to know what humidity does to a tortoise physically that prevents pyramiding.

Danny

I can make a guess, but I don't really know for sure. It keeps the new growth softer and allows it to lay flat. In my opinion, when its new growth and dry, it will tend to kinda' pinch up instead of be supple and lay flat. Just a guess.

I like this.

Richard Fife referred to spraying the tortoises shell a couple of times a day as another way to prevent pyramiding. He's in the process of doing more research on it, but called it "lubrication" between the growing scutes.

...more food for thought.

 

[DeanS]

Are there actually some people out there applying vaseline to the scute channels?

 

[terryo]

This doesn't have anything to do with your question Danny. IMHO...if you can't answer a question.... of any kind...I can't imagine who else could. To me you're a walking encyclopedia.
I have absolutely NO experience with tortoises of any kind. Pio is only 3 years old, and that makes me a novice compared to any of you. When Pio was 1 month old I put him in the planted vivarium. He has dry substrate...dry, with only plants misted once a day to bring humidity into his viv. But I have done what Vicki said. I pack his hide, which is soaked in water for a half hour every week, with long fiber moss that I wet, squeeze out and fluff up. But he has to dig his way into the hide and is then incased in the damp moss. He really got no exercise for the first year of his life as he only ate and then went into his hide. The food he got was what Terry K. told me to feed him....you all know what that is. He is really very smooth so far. He rarely gets protein. So what made him grow so smooth?
My friend has two sulcata's since they were 2 months old. They only went out for 4 or less months out of the whole year. She feeds them escarole, spring mix and rose of Sharon...I don't think she ever gave them hay , or whatever they're supposed to eat. In the winter they live in their own room in her house ...with lights hanging from the ceiling, and a heater of some kind. I don't know how old they are, but they are so big that have to be taken in with a dolly and have a big dog house for a hide when outside. After reading all the posts on sulcata's it seems she does everything wrong. I don't think she ever gave them humidity of any kind, and her house has dry heat in the winter. They never had a humid hide to go in. Dogs run all over the yard with them too, mastiff mixes. For being raised that way, they don't have that much pyramiding.

 

[TylerStewart]

Tyler, I hear what you are saying. It CAN go too far. 100% humidity ALL the time is surely not the way to go. I have been keeping my 3 year old ONE (only one, so far) that way since I got her at 12 weeks and no problems yet. My hatchlings are being kept that way too. They are a month old now and growing and thriving. I'm not saying it wasn't a problem for you and I agree that there needs to be some sort of balance, but the extremes haven't been a problem for me. I found that a humid hide box alone did nothing to stop a tortoise that was already pyramiding. If they are started that way (with a humid hide box) from babies, maybe that would be enough. I think I might be getting away with the extremes (swampiness) because when mine come out for daily sun, its very hot and dry. Gives their lungs and nasal passages time to dry out. Babies are only out for an hour or two a day. Older one 2-4 hours on average. The other 22 hours are spent in 80-90% humidity with a 99-100% humidity hide box.

---

---

And that few hours in the sun is probably all they need, and might be a natural number for a baby (1-3 hours in the dry, 22 hours in the moist). Again, I was only referring to one being kept all humid, all the time. That's what I was doing when mine were dying on me. They didn't get any "outside time" because that was the point of my "experiment," if that's what you'd call it. I think that if yours weren't getting the "outside time" you would be seeing similar problems.

I still think that the Fife-type setup is by far the most natural, and works when done from a hatchling size. I don't think anyone believes that they are ever at 100% humidity naturally, and certainly not in as much of a "swamp" as your are raising the babies. Besides the occasional flood or heavy rainstorm (which would dry up after a few days), they average much less than 100% humidity even in a deep burrow, and naturally, they are probably pretty dry in the few hours they're out and about (which I think enables them to handle the higher humidity of the burrow). I know the intent of the "tests" you're doing is to find out if humidity and/or moisture will prevent pyramiding, but really, I can tell you that the Fife type setup will prevent it - even when done in an outdoor setting like I have done. Not sure why it needs to be a swamp to prove anything.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Right now in Dakar Senegal the temp is 77 degrees and the humidity is 83%. Since I have been watching the temp and humidity there the ambient humidity has never been below 70% . I've been watching this for over a year. I should have been writing it all down, but of course I didn't. Rarely has the humidity fallen below 80%.

 

[egyptiandan]

I was just trying to get someone close to coming up with what humidity affected inside a tortoise's body to prevent pyramiding.

Well here goes. After the study that was done supposedly showing that humidity affected whether a tortoise pyramided or not, someone did another study about what it was that humidity did for a tortoise. I'm pretty sure but not positive it was published in Radiata. They found that hatchling tortoises dehydrated extremely quickly when feed a mainly weed diet (most is low in moisture) and if your giving a dry supplement, even worse. They were finding that a hatchling tortoise can dehydrate over night in a regular set-up (no humid hide). So unless a tortoise is drinking a ton of water and getting a high moisture diet in a regular set-up they were dehydrating every night. This dehydration caused the internal organs (liver and kidneys) to slowly become less effective (causing irreversable damage) in doing what they are supposed to be doing (processing vitamins and minerals and cleaning for the liver and eliminating waste for the kidneys). This slowly but steadily prevents the body from utilising the vitamins and minerals that the body is taking in. So you think you are doing everything right and giving your tortoise what it needs and in the right amount, but as the tortoise keeps getting dehydrated every night and organ function is going down you would have to be upping the vitamins and minerals to counter act this. They were testing blood calcium levels during this study.
So what they found was that if you used a humid hide you would prevent your hatchling (larger tortoises don't have this problem as they hold more water) from dehydrating over night and damaging it's internal organs. That would let the tortoise use what supplements it was getting without having to give large amounts. So it's always good to know why exactly something works and what it's doing.
So basicly you are trying to keep your hatchling from dehydrating and damaging internal organs.

Danny

 

[stells]

Pass... i don't know what i am talking about....

 

[Maggie Cummings]

While I do keep a moist substrate I don't use a humid hide so why are my babies smooth? Does not make much sense. None of the Gopherus babies that I head started were ever pyramided.

 

[terryo]

I love reading this thread, but I am so ignorant about this that you all sound like you're talking in another language. LMAO....I just had to post this.

 

[Madkins007]

Well, shucks, Dan- you sprung your trap before I could add my nickels worth! My research seems to point at total system dehydration as the culprit behind a LOT of tortoise care issues.

 

[DeanS]

I've changed the babies regimen again! They get the pool from 9AM-11AM...no shade and they have taken to running (fast walking) in the water...and two of them have taken to swimming. 11AM-3PM...into their separate enclosures...fed with no hides in the enclosure for 20 minutes...they eat at this point. Then I replace the hides which had been soaking and soak the terrain...it's been at least in the high 80s for the past two weeks...3PM-5PM...back to the pool...Then I move them to their TORTOISE HOUSEs where the heat is at 85 in the den areas with 80-90% humidity (thanks to moist Eco Earth)...and, of course they get to eat again.

 

[egyptiandan]

Well didn't they dig down into the substrate Maggie? If so, you gave them a humid hide which prevented them from dehydrating over night.

Danny

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Well didn't they dig down into the substrate Maggie? If so, you gave them a humid hide which prevented them from dehydrating over night.

Danny

hahaha, I never looked at it that way...So I guess I will stop saying they didn't have a humid hide...

 

[TylerStewart]

Many species just aren't prone to it like sulcatas are, either. Yellowfoots, for example, rarely pyramid.... My yellowfoots have never gone lumpy, and I have some 2 year olds that are perfectly smooth. I've seen some that were raised side by side with sulcatas in Phoenix that were smooth when the sulcatas were lumpy (raised literally with them, in the same enclosure). An old friend of mine raises DTs here, and his are never pyramided at 4-5-6" even though he doesn't know anything about a humid hide. I don't think the rapid growth of sulcatas helps their case, either.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Right now in Senegal the temperature is 77 degrees and the humidity is a whooping 94%...Do ya think rain is on the way???

 

[stells]

For the reverse question... simply you grew them too slow... and to do this you must have restricted food... which therefore restricts the nutrients... which leads to stunted badly grown tortoises...

Also with the temps you get and the restricted food... i would have been bathing more... as with less food there is less water content... and you live in a hot climate so i personally would have been bathing everyday...

Never thought I was Tyler.

Rapid growth is only a problem when there isn't enough of the 3 things (calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D3) needed to produce bone. If your providing enough of all 3 to keep up with the growth, than the new growth will be fine. When there isn't enough of all 3 the bone forms with what is available. When that happens the bone becomes porus (full of holes) to get the job done.

Not sure how a form fitting hide would work on influencing the shape of the shell unless it was attached to the shell permanently. As in what the Aztec did by strapping a board to a baby's forehead to make a sloping skull (it worked really well).

Not sure how you can compare hair to bone, but I guess you can. I know that low pressure brings clouds, rain and higher humidity and high pressure brings cloudless skies, no clouds and lower humidity. But other than that how does air pressure influence bone growth.

I also didn't know that bone growth was like curing cement. Bone is either growing bone or already grown bone. Growing occurs when cartiledge is replaced by bone, making the bones longer. When still growing, cartiledge is replaced faster than the bone can grow. Thats how the bones keep growing until adulthood.

All these wonderful things are happening inside the tortoise's body (not outside the body).

So again What is happening inside a tortoise that would be influenced by humidity?

Danny

I hear what you are saying and it makes sense, but it hasn't held up in the real world from my experience with desert species.

Here's a reverse question that might help shed some light. Can you explain why mine pyramided? At 12 years old and 40 pounds, I don't think anyone will argue that I grew them too fast or fed them too much. They had a varied, calcium rich diet fed daily, and regular sunshine and exercise. They spent about 3/4 of the year out in their outdoor pen in the CA sunshine. If it was sunny and over 70 they were outside in a giant pen with at least partial sun all day. They got Rep-Cal brand calcium 3-4 times a week as babies, tapering off to two times a week as they got bigger. Indoors they were kept 75-80 at night and had a 110 degree basking spot during the day if it was too cold outside. In doors and out they were kept bone dry. I soaked the babies 3-4 times a week tapering down to once or twice a week as they got bigger.

Please grill me for more info. I want to learn. I don't care whose right or wrong.

---

I have not had any problems with tortoises getting sick...hatchling to large adults....sulcatas and leopards.

That's far from what I'm talking about. I'm saying they shouldn't be kept constantly (as in, 24/7) on a wet substrate (and/or 100% humidity), which is what some people think prevents pyramiding. I have played around with that idea, and it wasn't pretty. I'm sure someone will do it and say I'm wrong - I'm just saying when I did it, I was losing babies, and there was no other explanation than that for me. It's a mistake I would never test again, that's for sure.

In the Leopard tortoise book by Fife, it shows very clearly how to build a "humid hide" and combine it with a dry area to produce smooth babies. It shows it also in the Star Tortoises book by Jerry Fife. If it is tried that way, it works. I'm not sure why more humidity or moisture is needed, and to me, adds risk. That's all.

-Pretty sulcatas, by the way.

Tyler, I hear what you are saying. It CAN go too far. 100% humidity ALL the time is surely not the way to go. I have been keeping my 3 year old ONE (only one, so far) that way since I got her at 12 weeks and no problems yet. My hatchlings are being kept that way too. They are a month old now and growing and thriving. I'm not saying it wasn't a problem for you and I agree that there needs to be some sort of balance, but the extremes haven't been a problem for me. I found that a humid hide box alone did nothing to stop a tortoise that was already pyramiding. If they are started that way (with a humid hide box) from babies, maybe that would be enough. I think I might be getting away with the extremes (swampiness) because when mine come out for daily sun, its very hot and dry. Gives their lungs and nasal passages time to dry out. Babies are only out for an hour or two a day. Older one 2-4 hours on average. The other 22 hours are spent in 80-90% humidity with a 99-100% humidity hide box.

---

All good answers but none of them answer my question

I want to know what humidity does to a tortoise physically that prevents pyramiding.

Danny

I can make a guess, but I don't really know for sure. It keeps the new growth softer and allows it to lay flat. In my opinion, when its new growth and dry, it will tend to kinda' pinch up instead of be supple and lay flat. Just a guess.

I like this.

Richard Fife referred to spraying the tortoises shell a couple of times a day as another way to prevent pyramiding. He's in the process of doing more research on it, but called it "lubrication" between the growing scutes.

...more food for thought.

---

---

 

[kbaker]

I was just trying to get someone close to coming up with what humidity affected inside a tortoise's body to prevent pyramiding.

Well here goes. After the study that was done supposedly showing that humidity affected whether a tortoise pyramided or not, someone did another study about what it was that humidity did for a tortoise. I'm pretty sure but not positive it was published in Radiata. They found that hatchling tortoises dehydrated extremely quickly when feed a mainly weed diet (most is low in moisture) and if your giving a dry supplement, even worse. They were finding that a hatchling tortoise can dehydrate over night in a regular set-up (no humid hide). So unless a tortoise is drinking a ton of water and getting a high moisture diet in a regular set-up they were dehydrating every night. This dehydration caused the internal organs (liver and kidneys) to slowly become less effective (causing irreversable damage) in doing what they are supposed to be doing (processing vitamins and minerals and cleaning for the liver and eliminating waste for the kidneys). This slowly but steadily prevents the body from utilising the vitamins and minerals that the body is taking in. So you think you are doing everything right and giving your tortoise what it needs and in the right amount, but as the tortoise keeps getting dehydrated every night and organ function is going down you would have to be upping the vitamins and minerals to counter act this. They were testing blood calcium levels during this study.
So what they found was that if you used a humid hide you would prevent your hatchling (larger tortoises don't have this problem as they hold more water) from dehydrating over night and damaging it's internal organs. That would let the tortoise use what supplements it was getting without having to give large amounts. So it's always good to know why exactly something works and what it's doing.
So basicly you are trying to keep your hatchling from dehydrating and damaging internal organs.

Danny

My ideas (without being said) were on assumming the tortoise was getting what it needed internally and the missing part was adding humidity to get smooth shell growth. And just like Tom's experiment, it can only show what works and not how it works on a cell (shell) level. We all knew before this post that dehydration and organ damage does not make a healthy tortoise.
One thing that I made a mistake on when posting to your question was thinking you were asking how humidity directly effected the inside of a tortoise and reality, it's more how it indirectly effects the inside of a tortoise.
I would like to know more about this experiment...such has enclosers and temperatures. I do not believe a tortoise would only dehydrate at night. With the open pens and basking lights that some people use, some are making beef jerky all day. I don't think that anyone is feeding dry weeds from day one so I don't think the experiments really apply to what everyday people are doing and why they get pyramiding with their tortoises.

Tyler-
The comment about raising sulcatas and yellowfoots side by side in PHX. That is misleading or inacurate?? Just from reading on this forum, yellowfoots don't like the conditions that you would raise a sulcata in...such has bright sunlight in an open pen. And visevera, a sulcata would not be happy in a well shaded dark pen. With different habits, I don't think the two did the same things at the same time of day.


I don't like this part of the forum...it always sounds like there are sides, arguements and poking fun at how people try to make points. I think Dan got his attention with how he presented his post. I would like to have read about the experiments in another part of the forum. The information Dan gave is not something that is "debatable". The conclusion of the experiment was dehydration and organ damage effects the health of the tortoise inturn effects the shell of the tortoise.

Have a good weekend and Happy Father's day-