Quran Burning

[Scooter]

I think what hey are doing is wrong, and I wish they would reconsider, but free speech works both ways, you may disagree with them or support them, but they do have a right to do this right or wrong on your view point, they have the right so while I don't think they should do it, I support their free speech options. As far as religions goes when you make a statement like " Just proves that all religion is insane" you insult people who have deep held beliefs, and while I don't agree with your statement, I of course believe you have the right to make such a statement, even if I think it is misguided.

I agree 100%!

 

[chadk]

Kristina:
More wars were fought and more deaths have been attributed to non-religious motivations and non-religious (even anti-religious) forms of gov't. A quick look at Mao, Stalin, etc and you'll quickly see that.

WPK, that is a pretty bigoted and ignorant attitude. Simply looking at currrent times and through history and you'll find some pretty top notch rational people who have a faith in God in one form or another. Probably 90% of our Presidents, including the current one consider themselves Christian in one form or another.

In fact, close to 90% of the US poputlation (even more if you look at the entire global population) is at least Theistic in some form. So those of you in the tiny minority who feel so 'enlightened' come accross as pretty smug to suggest that you have some grasp on rationality above and beyond everyone else.

Well, I was planning on not posting on this kind of thing anymore, but if I'm going to get called out then sure, I'll play. First off, in which way was my statement bigoted or ignorant? Please show where my statement was inaccurate. You're correct that 90% of Americans hold a theistic viewpoint, this doesn't make them correct. 90% of the world's population once thought illness was caused by evil spirits (some still do). Magical thinking has never been found to be correct in the long term. It's hard to gauge tone in a written format such as this, I'm not trying to come off as smug. I'm sure you're not trying to come off as hostile as you "sound" (I hope).

Stalin and Mao did not commit their atrocities in the name of atheism, but in the name of the state. They knew the power over the hearts and minds that the church held and they wanted to replace it with themselves. I'm glad you left Hitler off the list as he's usually the first one on it and the one who least deserves to be on it. Hitler was a Roman Catholic whose antisemitism was supported by the Vatican (google the Concordant of 1933).

It's also good that you don't blame your "more wars" statement as being in the name of nontheism, but simply for non-religious reasons. I can't think of a single war fought in the name of atheism. Non-religious reasons for war abound of course. Land, resources, population pressures; these are all the causes of many conflicts and will continue to be so as long as one person owns something that another person wants. I won't discuss the wars fought over nothing but the fact that someone's invisible friend doesn't like the other person's invisible friend. That point makes itself.

Actually the religious views of Hilter are very controversial.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs

Clearly his words and actions don't line up with Christian teaching...


Calling people of faith "insane", is just one of the ways you show your bigoted and smug attitude.

But i agree, that wars will be fought as long as there are humans on earth. It is a 'human thing', not a 'religious thing' as some would suggest.

As for the OP - I'll restate my opinion in that it boils down to free speach. Either you support our consitution, or you don't. Either you defend a person's right to express a differing view, or you put our our freedoms at risk as a whole. We don't have to like it. But we have to allow it. We are free to speak louder. To express our outrage. To boycott or picket. But as Americans, we HAVE to allow a citizen to burn a quran, or hundreds of qurans.

 

[wpk]

Actually the religious views of Hilter are very controversial.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs

Clearly his words and actions don't line up with Christian teaching...

Agreed, he went off the deep end towards the end. He had an obsession with the occult and other pagan beliefs.

Calling people of faith "insane", is just one of the ways you show your bigoted and smug attitude.

Fine...will "irrational" work? It does seem insane to me though what some people insist is true in the face of contradictory evidence. As for bigoted:


big·ot·ed
   /ˈbɪgətɪd/ Show Spelled[big-uh-tid] Show IPA
–adjective
utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.


Pot, meet kettle.

But i agree, that wars will be fought as long as there are humans on earth. It is a 'human thing', not a 'religious thing' as some would suggest.

As for the OP - I'll restate my opinion in that it boils down to free speach. Either you support our consitution, or you don't. Either you defend a person's right to express a differing view, or you put our our freedoms at risk as a whole. We don't have to like it. But we have to allow it. We are free to speak louder. To express our outrage. To boycott or picket. But as Americans, we HAVE to allow a citizen to burn a quran, or hundreds of qurans.

I'm all for the constitution and free speech. I believe religion (all of them, I'm not jut picking on you) to be irrational and silly but I don't tell people they can't have it. I don't try to take it away from anyone, I usually don't talk much about it at all because it doesn't serve much purpose other than riling people up (as it obviously did). I'm more against the burning of Qurans on the principle that I hate book burning more than the speech issue. He can burn as much of his property he wants, why should I care? They can build their mosque in NY, it's not my business. When religious nuts come and try to impose upon my freedoms, then we have a problem.

 

[Neal]

As for the OP - I'll restate my opinion in that it boils down to free speach. Either you support our consitution, or you don't. Either you defend a person's right to express a differing view, or you put our our freedoms at risk as a whole. We don't have to like it. But we have to allow it. We are free to speak louder. To express our outrage. To boycott or picket. But as Americans, we HAVE to allow a citizen to burn a quran, or hundreds of qurans.

Good point. The purpose of this thread was to vent some frustration, but that's about all anyone can do about this issue. I respect their right to free speach, but think the way they chose to exercise that right is stupid.

 

[Kristina]

I agree. They have the right to burn the Quran.

I also have the right not to like it and find it incredibly wrong.

In the very least are all of our soldiers in the Middle East that could be put in incredible danger if this happens.

 

[chadk]

Fine...will "irrational" work? It does seem insane to me though what some people insist is true in the face of contradictory evidence. As for bigoted:


big·ot·ed
   /ˈbɪgətɪd/ Show Spelled[big-uh-tid] Show IPA
–adjective
utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.


Pot, meet kettle.

Show me where I have shown any intolerance please...??? You on the other hand continue to insult and attempt to talk down to just about every other person in the world as if you somehow have a unique grasp on reality. So you have a different belief system. Maybe you are right and maybe you are wrong. Can't prove it either way. So try on a little humility and show some respect for people who believe different than you do if you can. Life is so much more enjoyable without all that bitterness and resentment building up all the time.

---

I agree. They have the right to burn the Quran.

I also have the right not to like it and find it incredibly wrong.

In the very least are all of our soldiers in the Middle East that could be put in incredible danger if this happens.

In more danger than they already are in? But I thought we were talking about a small radical fringe group of politically motivated terrorists? What have we to fear from the millions of peace loving muslims who will surely understand that this is just one guy and one tiny church, right?

Are we afraid the radicals will get MORE radical? Are we really talking about sumbitting our freedom to the terrorists? If we lose our freedom of speech, then the terrorists have already won.

This is really just a publicity stunt and the media is just eating it up for ratings. If the media backed off, it would come and go and be forgotten about in no time. But they WANT it to be a huge deal for ratings and they'll drive this and ride it as long as they can.

Now we have H. Clinton out there talking about it. Yet never mentioning that the people have a RIGHT to do this. Not once. Obama spent time recently lecturing us on his soap box about the mosque and as good Americans, we need to support their freedom to do what we may not agree with. Where is he now??????

 

[wpk]

Show me where I have shown any intolerance please...???

You came out with the personal attacks on me from your very first reply. That seems pretty intolerant.

You on the other hand continue to insult and attempt to talk down to just about every other person in the world as if you somehow have a unique grasp on reality. So you have a different belief system. Maybe you are right and maybe you are wrong. Can't prove it either way. So try on a little humility and show some respect for people who believe different than you do if you can. Life is so much more enjoyable without all that bitterness and resentment building up all the time.

My view on reality is hardly unique, it's simply the one that has the most evidence to back it up. If there was a belief system that had more evidence then I would accept that one. I'm not trying to talk down to you, sorry if it seems that way. It's really nothing personal, I'm not sure why everyone feels that everything is personal and that they must be the victim all the time. I'm not persecuting you or telling you what you can and can't believe. If your beliefs are so fragile that they can't take cursory criticism maybe they should be reevaluated. What gets you through your day is no business of mine.

---

Anyways, my last post on this topic, it seems to have strayed far away from the OP. Yes the guy has the right to burn his Quran. I find it amusing that he has to purchase them which financially supports the publishers of it but whatever, it's his business. Yes it will be paraded on Al Jazeera as American intolerance of muslims, but they do that anyways no matter what, so big whoop. Our troops are already in danger and they are trained and equipped to handle it. The people this does put in more danger are the christians and Americans who live and work abroad, they will be targeted more I believe.

My original post in this thread was meant just to highlight in a lighthearted way that there is a large amount of absurdity on both sides of the theological fence. It was not meant as an insult (well, not a big insult) to the beliefs of members of this community and it reminds me why I try to avoid posting about religion and politics in the first place.

 

[chadk]

You came out with the personal attacks on me from your very first reply. That seems pretty intolerant.

LOL. First off, pot, meet kettle...

It's really nothing personal, I'm not sure why everyone feels that everything is personal and that they must be the victim all the time.

Very ironic. Especially since your first post called me insane and your second called me irrational. My FIRST response to you was to simply give you a chance to explain your post. Recap for you:

Just proves that all religion is insane.

As opposed to rational people...

As you can see, you came out firing right off the bat. I simply called a spade a spade...

My view on reality is hardly unique,

So true. Nothing new here for sure. Perhaps 'unique' was too strong of a word. I meant your view is in the 'tiny minority'.

it's simply the one that has the most evidence to back it up.

Feel free to back that up. Start a new thread. Would love to discuss...

I'm not persecuting you

Of course not. Just calling me irrational and insane

If your beliefs are so fragile that they can't take cursory criticism maybe they should be reevaluated.

Pot, meet Kettle.... If your beliefs are so fragile you feel the need to jump into a public forum simply to toss insults at others who believe differently, then that is a belief system I'll surely avoid... Mine on the other hand is quite solid, hence confidently engaging you in this topic and calling out your bigoted and ignorant posts.

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

You came out with the personal attacks on me from your very first reply. That seems pretty intolerant.

LOL. First off, pot, meet kettle...

It's really nothing personal, I'm not sure why everyone feels that everything is personal and that they must be the victim all the time.

Very ironic. Especially since your first post called me insane and your second called me irrational. My FIRST response to you was to simply give you a chance to explain your post. Recap for you:

Just proves that all religion is insane.

As opposed to rational people...

As you can see, you came out firing right off the bat. I simply called a spade a spade...

My view on reality is hardly unique,

So true. Nothing new here for sure. Perhaps 'unique' was too strong of a word. I meant your view is in the 'tiny minority'.

it's simply the one that has the most evidence to back it up.

Feel free to back that up. Start a new thread. Would love to discuss...

I'm not persecuting you

Of course not. Just calling me irrational and insane

If your beliefs are so fragile that they can't take cursory criticism maybe they should be reevaluated.

Pot, meet Kettle.... If your beliefs are so fragile you feel the need to jump into a public forum simply to toss insults at others who believe differently, then that is a belief system I'll surely avoid... Mine on the other hand is quite solid, hence confidently engaging you in this topic and calling out your bigoted and ignorant posts.

Chad is there any reason for you to be so hostile?
How is saying that all religion is insane a personal attack on you? I wouldn't have used the word insane particularly but irrational, how can you take offence from that? Religious belief is by it's very nature irrational, what's the problem?
Perhaps I'm reading a different post because I haven't witnessed wpk 'jumping into a public forum to toss insults' at anybody.
I too think religion is irrational, are you going to have a go at me now too? I assure you I am not bigoted and I am definitely not ignorant, thus how else would I have concluded at my present thoughts regarding the existence of God? I cannot understand why religion demands this 'respect' you are talking about, what makes religion so deserving of respect exactly? What is it that entitles religious people the special luxury of taking offence when someone who doesn't care for their beliefs states an opinion? If you want to discuss in threads like this then at least be civil about it, otherwise what's the point.

 

[chadk]

I'm being perfectly civil. Where do you see hostility? I'm only helping wpk understand that calling people insane and irrational simply because you believe differently than they do is not a good thing. Am I wrong on that?

I never said anyone should respect any particular religion. Just that in general, people should respect eachother. Is that bad? And calling folks insane and irrational is clearly showing disrespect.

It is pretty simple really. Can't believe it isn't getting through... Try this. Which option is a form of disagreeing with someone's beliefs in a respectful way, and which is disagreeing in a not so respectful way:
a) "Fred, I disagree with you"
b) "Sally, you are insane and irrational!!"

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

I'm being perfectly civil. Where do you see hostility? I'm only helping wpk understand that calling people insane and irrational simply because you believe differently than they do is not a good thing. Am I wrong on that?

Well that depends on the belief doesn't it. I believe in the celestial tea pot religion. That tea pot orbits the earth, it has vast powers, intelligence and an unmatched omnibenevolent nature. I believe in the celestial tea pot, it is a deep held belief which is dear to me.
Suppose I voiced this in a thread, would you not consider it perhaps irrational, or just a little insane even?
For wpk, (who I will assume is an atheist) my belief in the teapot is probably equivalent to yours or anyone else's belief in God, which is why he said religion is insane, I don't think it was an attempt to insult or offend anybody.


I never said anyone should respect any particular religion. Just that in general, people should respect eachother. Is that bad? And calling folks insane and irrational is clearly showing disrespect.

It is pretty simple really. Can't believe it isn't getting through... Try this. Which option is a form of disagreeing with someone's beliefs in a respectful way, and which is disagreeing in a not so respectful way:
a) "Fred, I disagree with you"
b) "Sally, you are insane and irrational!!"

And no, it isn't bad but you haven't exactly disagreed with wpk in a respectful manner either, I believe you called him ignorant and bigoted, you could have easily chosen answer a) from your own post in reply.

 

[chadk]

I find this statement bigoted: "you are insane and irrational because you believe differently than I do".

Seems to fit this definition:

big·ot·ed
   /ˈbɪgətɪd/ Show Spelled[big-uh-tid] Show IPA
–adjective
utterly intolerant of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.


And clearly it was ignorant, as we all know many many many sane and rational people who have various religious beliefs: Nearly all presidents of the US (including Obama, JFK, Washington, ...), MLK, Ghandi, CS Lewis, Tolkein, Isaac Newton, and of course, Mr T and Chuck Norris

 

[wpk]

Well, I planned on staying out of this thread but if I'm going to keep getting yelled at I suppose I'll keep a toe in.

I find this statement bigoted: "you are insane and irrational because you believe differently than I do".

I did not say that. I said that religion is insane and irrational. Does this have to be about you?

And clearly it was ignorant, as we all know many many many sane and rational people who have various religious beliefs: Nearly all presidents of the US (including Obama, JFK, Washington, ...), MLK, Ghandi, CS Lewis, Tolkein, Isaac Newton, and of course, Mr T and Chuck Norris

A person can be sane, rational, and intelligent but still hold irrational and even insane beliefs. All kinds of people believe all kind of strange things. Aztecs sacrificed children on altars to keep the universe from ending, are you ignorant or a bigot because you disapprove of their cherished beliefs? I'm just calling a spade a spade, as you said. The beliefs of a nomadic bronze age desert people should not still hold reign over civilized society in my opinion.

 

[chadk]

You seem to be contridicting yourself.

insane [ɪnˈseɪn]
adj
1. mentally deranged; crazy; mad; mentally ill

So a person who holds irrational and insane beliefs can be a perfectly rational, sane, and intelligent person, right?

Oh, and please stop playing the victim card - nobody is yelling at you

 

[Yvonne G]

Since when did this thread become a Chad/wpk argument?

I'm not interested in what you two have to say about politics and religion. If you can't talk about the subject matter without going at each other, then take your argument private.

 

[chadk]

Sorry, didn't mean to let our off topic debate become so off topic here in the off topic detabate area

 

[TylerStewart]

LOL, yeah, come on Chad.... Why are you talking about politics and religion in a thread titled "Burning a Koran?"

Not sure what else you'd be talking about in this thread.

 

[dolfanjack]

I believe in free speech period. If your not the government you can burn bibles, the Quran, Darwins book on evolution, the constitution. I also don't care about what other countries think. If Iranians want to scream and shout about this, let them. I don't want this country making policy so it doesn't **** another country off. So what if a group of people want to make a mosque near the sight of the twin towers? Let them, they have the right. Keep religion out of gov'nt, our policy making, and our schools, you can have it anywhere else. Agnostic but tolerent, Jack

 

[dmmj]

I have to disagree that they have a right to build a mosque, a right is something in the constitution and I do not see anywhere there where they have a right to build it, they can practice their religion that is a right, but building mosques are not a right.

 

[wpk]

I have to disagree that they have a right to build a mosque, a right is something in the constitution and I do not see anywhere there where they have a right to build it, they can practice their religion that is a right, but building mosques are not a right.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.