Still passing gritty urates

[yay14]

So my 1 year 2 months old hermann tortoise just passed some gritty urates again, at first i thought that the reason he was getting gritty urates were just becuse he was kept to dry before and that it should clear up now eventually now that the humidity is good, but now he has been kept in good humidity since the begining of januari, i was soaking him twice a day for 30 minutes and now i soak him once a day for 30 minutes, he has good humidity and a good humid hide, i also spray his food with water. I really don't understand why hes still passing gritty iurates 2 months after i made sure everything that would hydrate him is good.
His humidity is 65-85 and he has a hide thats 95+ humidity.

 

[Lyn W]

Did you change the substrate for something without stones ?
I believe someone advised you on your other thread that he could be eating and passing the little stones from his substrate rather than gritty urates.
Maybe there are still some going through his digestive system.

 

[yay14]

Did you change the substrate for something without stones ?
I believe someone advised you on your other thread that he could be eating and passing the little stones from his substrate rather than gritty urates.
Maybe there are still some going through his digestive system.

I am going to change the substrate as soon as possible, but i know this was urates it looked like cottage cheese with a gritty inside.

 

[yay14]

Did you change the substrate for something without stones ?
I believe someone advised you on your other thread that he could be eating and passing the little stones from his substrate rather than gritty urates.
Maybe there are still some going through his digestive system.

Is there anything wrong or has he just not adjusted to the changes in his care, so he still passing gritty urates? Because I feel like it would be impossible for him to be dehydrated right now.

 

[Lyn W]

It sounds as if he is well hydrated but gritty urates is not something I've seen from my tort, so I can't tell you how long he could be passing them after better hydration started.
Maybe @ZenHerper or @zovick or @Yvonne will know.

The sooner you remove the stony substrate the better.

 

[yay14]

It sounds as if he is well hydrated but gritty urates is not something I've seen from my tort, so I can't tell you how long he could be passing them after better hydration started.
Maybe @ZenHerper or @zovick or @Yvonne will know.

ok thx

 

[yay14]

Is there anyone else that might know if it's normal for him to still be passing gritty urates or if they should be smooth by now?. Keep in mind he was kep to dry for quite a long time before things changed for the better. but he has had good humidity for 2 months now among with all the other things that should keep him hydrated, but as said hes still passing gritty ones 2 months after the better hydration statred.

 

[yay14]

Hes also been passing them more often than before, before they were maybe once every week or two, altough maybe more i could not find, but now it's almost everyday or around 5 days a week.

 

[Maggie3fan]

I will repeat this one more time.
My 17 year old 120+ lb Sulcata tortoise was EXTREMELY well hydrated. He was not obviously dehydrated, he had a soaking pool and a big water dish which he emptied daily. I was confident he was well hydrated, but he still got a large bladder stone and died.

 

[yay14]

I will repeat this one more time.
My 17 year old 120+ lb Sulcata tortoise was EXTREMELY well hydrated. He was not obviously dehydrated, he had a soaking pool and a big water dish which he emptied daily. I was confident he was well hydrated, but he still got a large bladder stone and died.

Oh ok i did not think about urates being aplied to that to, but so is there nothing i can do will he just keep passing gritty urates and i can't do anything about it?

 

[yay14]

Ok i now found this in his substate. This is deffiantly a bladder stone, i mean you can easily see it it. As maggie mentioned his tortoise got a bladder stone even while being hydrated which i think is the case here to, since i have a hard time beliving the care he gets right now could lead him to be dehydrated.
I really don't know what to do is there anything i can do or is my tort just doomed. i am really anxious

 

[Markw84]

@yay14 First I would be sure you are seeing urate stones. I would bathe your tortoise daily for at least 1/2 hour in water around 90°. Watch for urates you see him pass, not "stones" you find in the enclosure and assume he passed. If indeed you are seeing hard stones that are being passed as a urolith, then we can look at possible solutions.

There are 5 factors I look at that affect forming uroliths.

1 - hydration which most people are immediately focused on. Seems like that is not an issue here.
2 - Specific habit of the individual tortoise in dumping/replacing water held. Some tortoise just seem to retain the habit of holding water longer in their system and therefore get higher concentration of uric acid building.
3 - Amount of protein in diet. All uroliths found in tortoises are purine based. So a by-product of protein digestion. An excess of protein in the diet forces the tortoise to process more urates and if holding water, can lead to higher concentrations that will precipitate into the start of the urolith.
4 - Temperature. Uric acid precipitates much more readily at lower temperatures. There is a big difference in solubility at 80° vs 65°. A Hermanns tortoise in the wild would normally be feeding and growing when temperatures are higher. In those times, the overnight low, and the ground temperatures are higher there than where you are and in fact, most of the US. Where a tortoise hides overnight is protected from the overnight low we see in weather data. But even that is about 60°-65° through most of their active season. That means, where the tortoise is hiding probably never subjects the tortoise to temps lower than 70° as a minimum during its active season. Feeding a tortoise in captivity in a colder environment, and allowing nighttime temps to drop lower than that can certainly lead to an increase in the formation of uroliths. So feeding through winter is a possible issue with temperature management.
5 - The acidity of the gut also dramatically affects precipitation of urates into uroliths. Although in humans a High (alkaline) Ph gut can indeed lead to more uroliths, the uroliths in mammals are mostly calcium based. In tortoises all uroliths studies have been purine based. The reverse is true for purines - lower (acidic) Ph leads to greater precipitation of purine based urates (dramatically lowers solubility). So the types (Ph) of food and water available are also conditions to look at.

 

[Lyn W]

Have you replaced that stony substrate yet?

 

[yay14]

@yay14 First I would be sure you are seeing urate stones. I would bathe your tortoise daily for at least 1/2 hour in water around 90°. Watch for urates you see him pass, not "stones" you find in the enclosure and assume he passed. If indeed you are seeing hard stones that are being passed as a urolith, then we can look at possible solutions.

There are 5 factors I look at that affect forming uroliths.

1 - hydration which most people are immediately focused on. Seems like that is not an issue here.
2 - Specific habit of the individual tortoise in dumping/replacing water held. Some tortoise just seem to retain the habit of holding water longer in their system and therefore get higher concentration of uric acid building.
3 - Amount of protein in diet. All uroliths found in tortoises are purine based. So a by-product of protein digestion. An excess of protein in the diet forces the tortoise to process more urates and if holding water, can lead to higher concentrations that will precipitate into the start of the urolith.
4 - Temperature. Uric acid precipitates much more readily at lower temperatures. There is a big difference in solubility at 80° vs 65°. A Hermanns tortoise in the wild would normally be feeding and growing when temperatures are higher. In those times, the overnight low, and the ground temperatures are higher there than where you are and in fact, most of the US. Where a tortoise hides overnight is protected from the overnight low we see in weather data. But even that is about 60°-65° through most of their active season. That means, where the tortoise is hiding probably never subjects the tortoise to temps lower than 70° as a minimum during its active season. Feeding a tortoise in captivity in a colder environment, and allowing nighttime temps to drop lower than that can certainly lead to an increase in the formation of uroliths. So feeding through winter is a possible issue with temperature management.
5 - The acidity of the gut also dramatically affects precipitation of urates into uroliths. Although in humans a High (alkaline) Ph gut can indeed lead to more uroliths, the uroliths in mammals are mostly calcium based. In tortoises all uroliths studies have been purine based. The reverse is true for purines - lower (acidic) Ph leads to greater precipitation of purine based urates (dramatically lowers solubility). So the types (Ph) of food and water available are also conditions to look at.

Ok thanks for helping me, also quick qustion since what i found is so small could it be a big peice of gritty urate or is it deffiantly a bladder stone?

Of the things you mentioned i think could be reason for the bladder stone is Protein since his current diet has a lot of grocery store stuff in it becuse of current climate.
I did also overwinter him since he is so young, but i don't think the tempatures have been to low, his coldest night temps are 68/69 and his day temps are very good.
So i think the most likely problem is his diet, This is whats currently fed

roddichio
endive
kale
arugula
frisee
fresh weeds seed mix i bought at a tortoise website here, not sure about everything included but i know it has clovers, altough not much at the moment since i am growing some new right now.
Recently started giving this bag of dried weeds and this is what i think is the problem since i bought it at the vet and it's techincally for rabbits and guinea pigs but it said it's good for torts to. and the gritty urates have now started coming more frequntly when i have stated giving alot of this.
And i just started giving mazuri but i havae only given it 2 times so far.

 

[yay14]

Have you replaced that stony substrate yet?

I am waiting for it to arrive, shipping times are not great here in sweden

 

[Markw84]

Ok thanks for helping me, also quick qustion since what i found is so small could it be a big peice of gritty urate or is it deffiantly a bladder stone?

Of the things you mentioned i think could be reason for the bladder stone is Protein since his current diet has a lot of grocery store stuff in it becuse of current climate.
I did also overwinter him since he is so young, but i don't think the tempatures have been to low, his coldest night temps are 68/69 and his day temps are very good.
So i think the most likely problem is his diet, This is whats currently fed

roddichio
endive
kale
arugula
frisee
fresh weeds seed mix i bought at a tortoise website here, not sure about everything included but i know it has clovers, altough not much at the moment since i am growing some new right now.
Recently started giving this bag of dried weeds and this is what i think is the problem since i bought it at the vet and it's techincally for rabbits and guinea pigs but it said it's good for torts to. and the gritty urates have now started coming more frequntly when i have stated giving alot of this.
And i just started giving mazuri but i havae only given it 2 times so far.

Gritty urates are the beginnings of the same process that creates "bladder stones" which are technically uroliths. The "grit" in the urates is what could become the condensation nucleus of a forming urolith.

 

[Lyn W]

Ok thanks for helping me, also quick qustion since what i found is so small could it be a big peice of gritty urate or is it deffiantly a bladder stone?

Of the things you mentioned i think could be reason for the bladder stone is Protein since his current diet has a lot of grocery store stuff in it becuse of current climate.
I did also overwinter him since he is so young, but i don't think the tempatures have been to low, his coldest night temps are 68/69 and his day temps are very good.
So i think the most likely problem is his diet, This is whats currently fed

roddichio
endive
kale
arugula
frisee
fresh weeds seed mix i bought at a tortoise website here, not sure about everything included but i know it has clovers, altough not much at the moment since i am growing some new right now.
Recently started giving this bag of dried weeds and this is what i think is the problem since i bought it at the vet and it's techincally for rabbits and guinea pigs but it said it's good for torts to. and the gritty urates have now started coming more frequntly when i have stated giving alot of this.
And i just started giving mazuri but i havae only given it 2 times so far.

Lots of us use dried grasses or weeds mixed in with fresh leaves, so I don't think that alone would be the problem.
There are lots of other shop bought foods you could feed for variety until the weeds come.
Lambs lettuce is good as are dark romaine leaves, pak choy, escarole.
Go back to the caresheet to check your temps and see what other foods are suggested. Also look at thetortoisetable.org.uk which is a good guide to tort safe foods.
Are you using any supplements? Too much of those can cause problems.

 

[yay14]

Lots of us use dried grasses or weeds mixed in with fresh leaves, so I don't think that alone would be the problem.
There are lots of other shop bought foods you could feed for variety until the weeds come.
Lambs lettuce is good as are dark romaine leaves, pak choy, escarole.
Go back to the caresheet to check your temps and see what other foods are suggested. Also look at thetortoisetable.org.uk which is a good guide to tort safe foods.
Are you using any supplements? Too much of those can cause problems.

The thing is what i have fed was not a mix but only dried
stinging nettles

So thats why i think it could be a problem since i don't think those are all to good.

Yes i supplement calcium twice a week miner-all once a week and i am going to start putting drops of bird vitamins in his soak once a week

Also the other things i am feeding right now are stuff i got from a caresheet here on the forum so i am pretty confident on those and have not had a problem until i started giving those dried stinging nettles.

 

[yay14]

Gritty urates are the beginnings of the same process that creates "bladder stones" which are technically uroliths. The "grit" in the urates is what could become the condensation nucleus of a forming urolith.

Oh ok but do you think this is a "developed bladder stone" or just the beginning of it/gritty urates.

 

[Lyn W]

The thing is what i have fed was not a mix but only dried
stinging nettles

So thats why i think it could be a problem since i don't think those are all to good.

Yes i supplement calcium twice a week miner-all once a week and i am going to start putting drops of bird vitamins in his soak once a week

Also the other things i am feeding right now are stuff i got from a caresheet here on the forum so i am pretty confident on those and have not had a problem until i started giving those dried stinging nettles.

Did you just feed dried weeds without mixing them with some fresh leaves?
How often do you just feed dried weeds alone?