Stressed cherryhead

Melaleuca

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Hello, I'd like to know others experience with cherryheads vs redfoots. My cherryhead (Fig) is very territorial and I think also very easily stressed.

To cut to the chase, here are some of my questions regarding cherryheads related to my particularly situation:
  1. Are cherryheads stressed out more easily than their northern relatives? And is the regular excessive pooping a normal stress reaction?
  2. Assuming that the excessive pooping is a stress reaction, what can I do to help reduce Fig's stress? Are there any vitamins/minerals associated with stress response/adaptability in redfoots?
  3. Could the excessive self-cleansing (poop/diarrhoea) be a territorial response and not a stress response?
  4. Can cherryheads be sociable creatures or are they prone to being angsty and territorial for life?
I'd already had another redfoot (northern locale in appearance) for about 2 years when I got Fig. Magda is a northern locale (based on appearance), almost 3yo, is very friendly, sweet, and adaptable and I've had since she was a hatchling. Then there's Fig, the cherryhead, roughly 2yo, who I got about 10 months ago, and has been very territorial with Magda since introduction. Their personalities are total opposites; it's like Magda sees me as a positive opportunity for food and interaction while Fig sees me as a threat. Both Magda and Fig's pronouns are she/her but their sex parts are undetermined as yet.

I've put things in spoilers below in case any of the info is relevant without it being a wall of text.

Fig's backstory
When I got Fig she was incredibly fearful (activated "rock mode" when she saw ANY movement, wouldn't eat or drink unless in total solitude, and spent her time hiding and sleeping), sleepy, and had parasites, blockages (from whatever she had eaten before I got her), and possibly malnutrition based on the diet she had prior to my care. She's all better now and is a lot less fearful but still no where near as comfortable as Magda (eg. Fig now saves "rock mode" for special occasions, she'll sometimes eat a little when outside her enclosure, and explores a lot more). Fig's current enclosure is a large black tote (heat ~74-82f, humidity 99%, coconut substrate, hides) and she seems a lot less stressed in this setup. I did a few months of strict quarantine and comprehensive vet tests of both torts before they were introduced.

Fig's territorial behaviour
Fig is less than half the size of Magda, but she has been aggressively territorial with Magda since introduction. The bullying/aggression from Fig that I've witnessed includes following Magda around and not giving her personal space (following her closely when walking, pushing up against Magda or resting her head on Magda when Magda's resting or sleeping - even when Magda chooses a less ideal sleeping location), getting in Magda's face and head bobbing, very intentionally and consistently blocking Magda from certain paths and hides ("my side, your side!", Stark from Farscape anyone?), ramming Magda, and sitting on food. I tried housing them together in 8x3.5ft space with plenty of hides and visual barriers but no matter how much I changed the setup it didn't stop Fig's bullying more than temporarily. I haven't seen Magda do any aggressive/bullying behaviour towards Fig, except for occasionally (>10 times) trying to walk over Fig if she wouldn't stop blocking Magda's path during supervised apartment exploration time. Of course, this was stressing Magda out so now they live completely separately and don't interact at all except very briefly under supervision. Even now living alone, Fig still protectively sits on her food, and she will be unusually active in her house of solitude for a couple of days after the rare occasion she sees Magda when they're both brought out of their enclosures at the same time. Fig has also been known to occasionally bite and ram my feet.
Since separating them, Magda displays curiosity about Fig if she hasn't seen her for a few weeks, kind of like a "who's that, I want to meet them!" when she sees Fig during shared exploration time; she'll go over to where fig is but still give fig plenty of personal space and then wander off.


Fig and stress
Fig seems to get stressed VERY easily and have excessive poop responses to stress. As in, she empties her little body entirely. It starts with normal poop (if she had essentially no interactions the prior few days) and progresses to diarrhoea of undigested food until she's all out (or just all undigested food diarrhoea if she's been stressed the prior few days). This has happened from day one, eg. giving her warm soaks daily when I first got her, while living in the same enclosure as Magda, and now whenever she comes out of her enclosure of solitude it also happens regardless of fruit/leaves/protein ratios. After an emptying she's sometimes hungry enough to eat some food in front of me (big surprise, she just cleansed her system 🤦‍♀️), but she won't eat or drink much until she's back in her house of solitude and left alone. The only "safe" level of interaction seems to be the daily wellbeing check where I swap out Fig's food/water and give her a couple of second booty scratch.
In comparison, Magda's poop habits are regular and normal. Fig's poop was recently tested and negative for parasites. I've even got her to eat some of Magda's poop in case that would help her gut flora, but no change. All of this leads me to think she becomes stressed very easily and responds with emptying herself, like a tortoise would during a car ride or when flipped upside down. However, due to her strong territorial tendencies, I'm wondering if the pooping could be a territorial reaction as well as/instead of a stress reaction.


Any feedback/knowledge/info is appreciated!
 

Ink

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@ZEROPILOT might be able to help. Do you keep the 2 tortoises together? I couldn't read everything you wrote.
 

Melaleuca

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No worries, I know I wrote a lot. The cherryhead and redfoot were kept together for a couple of months in a large enclosure with lots of hides and sight barriers but I separated them a few weeks ago. Now each tortoise has its own enclosure without any access to each other. They're both doing better for being separate but Fig still empties her system when she's brought out of her enclosure.
 

Sarah2020

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It is good you separated them. Tortoise like humans have different personalities some will hide and
burrow, many try to escape and some are bold and confident. Check your set up heat, light, diet, hydration, space and then let it be what it wants to be. It may come round over the future years. As long as your sure it has what it needs then I say let it be and do not over worry.
 

ZEROPILOT

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I've kept at one time or another probably 60-75 or more Redfoot tortoises. Mostly Northerns. But a few Cherries.
They all have their own personalities and I have unfortunately kept a few that pooped from the moment they were lifted to when I sat them down. That makes the monthly wellness inspection so much more interesting.
I'd suggest that you continue to handle that individual and hopefully it'll figure out you're not going to cause harm. But I can't say for a fact that the panic pooping will stop. Its a hard wired instinctual reaction to being lifted off of the ground.
Some have it. Some don't. And I swear that a few even showed a real willingness to be picked up.
But no. It's not a Cherryhead thing.
 

Melaleuca

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It is good you separated them. Tortoise like humans have different personalities some will hide and
burrow, many try to escape and some are bold and confident. Check your set up heat, light, diet, hydration, space and then let it be what it wants to be. It may come round over the future years. As long as your sure it has what it needs then I say let it be and do not over worry.
Fig will make herself a little "nest", but she's never been a burrower which still surprises me. Magda LOVES to dig and get buried and cosy for naps.

I've kept at one time or another probably 60-75 or more Redfoot tortoises. Mostly Northerns. But a few Cherries.
They all have their own personalities and I have unfortunately kept a few that pooped from the moment they were lifted to when I sat them down. That makes the monthly wellness inspection so much more interesting.
I'd suggest that you continue to handle that individual and hopefully it'll figure out you're not going to cause harm. But I can't say for a fact that the panic pooping will stop. Its a hard wired instinctual reaction to being lifted off of the ground.
Some have it. Some don't. And I swear that a few even showed a real willingness to be picked up.
But no. It's not a Cherryhead thing.
Panic pooping is good way to put it! Fig panic poops without being lifted though, like when she was in the same enclosure with Magda for a few months and had stress diarrhoea the whole time even though I'd leave her alone for days (I thought the diarrhoea was her still adjusting to having an appropriate diet and I didn't make the connection to stress until a couple of months ago). When I bring her out of her current enclosure of solitude I can put her in a safe space that she's familiar with and she'll still empty herself over the next hour and a half. I used to get her out every 2-3 days for social time but her messiness has been huge disincentive in interacting with her since there's so much more prep and cleanup (and stink). I was initially getting her out every day for half an hour to an hour but the next day she'll behave actively fearful (running from me with her head tucked) and more aggressive (ramming me).
Magda on the other hand makes it clear when she wants attention and will walk around and sit at my feet if she's ready to carried somewhere and never panic poops at being carried.

I was discussing Fig's situation with a friend last night and we were considering how Fig likely endured traumatic conditions prior to my care which could be driving her behaviour. Fig came from a Petco (I know, bad, but I'd been watching her get sicker and sicker over a couple of months and the staff wouldn't action any of my suggestions so my heart was breaking for her), so I assume she experienced overcrowding, and lack of adequate food, water, places to hide and respect of her space by humans and other tortoises, and inappropriate temps/humidity/light before arriving at the store, and I know whilst at the store. To me, the history of likely traumatic experiences and resource scarcity through her early development makes sense for how young she is yet avid about guarding a space that she decides is hers and sitting on food even when there's an abundance and no competition for it. Essentially, her behaviour could be more a trauma response rather than she just has a difficult personality. From the start with Fig I've been trying to treat her respectfully to help her adjust, and I have seen huge improvements since I got her, so I think I need to put more effort into that and remember she has likely had a difficult start when I get frustrated.

Following this line of thinking, I'd appreciate any suggestions on good methods for "rehabbing" methods to help her get past these behaviours.
 

Tom

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I see that you've done a fecal, but that only checks for parasitic worm ova. There are a lot of other things that cannot be diagnosed with a fecal sample.

I think you have now learned, but let me reiterate : Tortoises should never be kept in pairs, and different types of tortoises, even the same species, should never be mixed.

My experience with all RFs is limited, but I have observed that in general CHs seem to be much more scrappy and territorial than other RFs.

It is possible that Fig endured traumatic conditions, but it is also possible that this is just this tortoise's personality. People make this assumption incorrectly on a regular basis with dogs. I have been told unanimously, without exception, by every person who got a dog from a shelter or a rescue, that their dog was "abused" before they got it. They draw this conclusion because the dogs behaves in a nervous or shy manner in some circumstance. Some dogs are just born nervous or shy. Certainly some dogs have had an abusive past, but ALL of them? No. I think not. Many people encourage and reinforce nervous or shy behavior by attempting to comfort a dog showing a reaction like this. The dog interprets this "comfort" as praise and attention, and this encourages this behavior, thereby making it worse. What does this have to do with your situation? Maybe nothing, maybe everything. I would just go about your business and not worry about Fig's perceived feelings. Use a plastic tub to move Fig, both to contain the mess and to make Fig feel more secure with four feet on the ground. In time, in all likelihood, Fig will desensitize and calm down.
 

Melaleuca

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To clarify, both Fig and Magda had fecal for parasites and TINC, and swabbed for cyptosporidium, microplasmosise, and herpes in June 2022. They came back clear except for Fig's parasites which was treated and she's tested negative for parasites two or three times since then with the most recent fecal about 2 months ago. I thought I covered it all, but are there any other illnesses I should test for? The vet thought I was doing overkill back then but I don't want to risk preventable harm to either of them.

I have learned! There's no way I'm housing them together again and risking injury and stress on them both. I wish I'd known there was a difference between northerns and cherryheads beyond just how they look, but at least I know/am learning now. I know there's breakdowns of how redfoots look by region, what about common personalities and behaviours by region? It would be interesting to learn more.

You're right about it being possible that it really is her personality, but I think I should try to work with her more again to give her a chance just in case her behaviour's due to the rough start. It's frustrating that Fig is so opposite to Magda who's always been curious and confident. If Fig remains difficult then I'll likely try to rehome her to someone who will have a better appreciation for her than I do.

*Edit because my hand slipped and posted when I was halfway thru a sentence.
 
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cooky_luvs

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Cherryheads do for sure have a more ‘rude’ (best way I can think to describe it lol) personality in general, but varies considerably amongst individuals. I used to house my cherries and Northerns together and they were fine I believe simply because of the group size. I separated the Northerns so I could expand the Cherries and like it much better this way for myself and for them.

I think the key here is being housed in pairs like was mentioned. If they were in a larger group the behavior wouldn’t be so apparent, any aggression would be spread out rather than targeted. Although cherries can have ‘ruder’ personalities you could have the same problem with just two Northerns, they’re all individuals with different personalities. Even in groups sometimes there’s ‘problem individuals’ but most times larger groups remain peaceful if given adequate space.

As far as the panic poops I think that could get better with time and exposure. I have one new-to-me older female that does similar. She sure scared me when I first got her assuming she was sick or had parasites. She just simply does not like being picked up. Too much handling and she will void her bowels and undigested like you mentioned. In my case she is a mature older female, she likely won’t change but I have to pick her up at times so hopefully she’ll get use to it to some degree. In your case Fig is younger so I think there’s a good chance things will calm down.

By the way I love seeing those two on Instagram ❤️
 

TammyJ

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Well. I guess one good thing about having a tortoise that poops big time when you pick it up is that you will always know exactly what to do about constipation. 💩.
 

Melaleuca

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Well. I guess one good thing about having a tortoise that poops big time when you pick it up is that you will always know exactly what to do about constipation. 💩.
This is very true! But at this rate I don't think Fig will ever have that problem 😂

Cherryheads do for sure have a more ‘rude’ (best way I can think to describe it lol) personality in general, but varies considerably amongst individuals. I used to house my cherries and Northerns together and they were fine I believe simply because of the group size. I separated the Northerns so I could expand the Cherries and like it much better this way for myself and for them.

I think the key here is being housed in pairs like was mentioned. If they were in a larger group the behavior wouldn’t be so apparent, any aggression would be spread out rather than targeted. Although cherries can have ‘ruder’ personalities you could have the same problem with just two Northerns, they’re all individuals with different personalities. Even in groups sometimes there’s ‘problem individuals’ but most times larger groups remain peaceful if given adequate space.

As far as the panic poops I think that could get better with time and exposure. I have one new-to-me older female that does similar. She sure scared me when I first got her assuming she was sick or had parasites. She just simply does not like being picked up. Too much handling and she will void her bowels and undigested like you mentioned. In my case she is a mature older female, she likely won’t change but I have to pick her up at times so hopefully she’ll get use to it to some degree. In your case Fig is younger so I think there’s a good chance things will calm down.

By the way I love seeing those two on Instagram ❤️
Aw thanks! 🥰 And I'm grateful to hear of it happening in another redfoot (but unfortunate for you...), it helps me think that there's probably no major underlying health problem with Fig causing the issue and it is just a stress reaction.
 

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