Sulcatas are aggressive and everyone should stop breeding????

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Neal thank you for that side of things. I never thought about the situation happening in AZ like your talking about with it working against the DT. I recall pictures of that "rescue" and have often wondered how they had ever deemed themselves a rescue. Looked worse then some so called hoarders I have saw TV shows of.

Yes, agree, interesting insight. Thank you for sharing Neal. Sigh.

 

[Tom]

I found Neal's post interesting. Never thought off this in that way. So the premise, when extrapolated out, is that all these sulcatas are being cared for by people who could be giving homes to DTs that have been illegally removed from the desert instead. If there weren't so many sulcata babies being produced, these people would instead line up to adopt all these DTs?

I don't think so. People want a sulcata because of what they are. Big, bold, beautiful, majestic... Don't get me wrong. DTs are great tortoises and I love the species. I could have as many as I want, but I have chosen other species for a variety of reasons.

Why are we only blaming sulcatas for lack of DT homes. What about all the Russians bought at Petco and Petsmart? How come those people didn't go out and adopt a DT instead? Basically ANY pet tortoise of ANY species could be taking up a potential DT home.

So should we stop ALL captive tortoise breeding until all the DTs have homes? Am I off base here? Does anyone else see it this way?

 

[mike taylor]

I think the people in that one rescue facility has found a way to sell sulcatas. But on the other hand say they are saving the poor dessert tortoises. I don't think he meant as you took it Tom . I am with you these people get people into the rescue for the dts . But use the ole slide of hand and show them there first sulcata then they just have to get one . It's a great trick at the cost of another tortoise .

 

[Jacqui]

I think the people in that one rescue facility has found a way to sell sulcatas. But on the other hand say they are saving the poor dessert tortoises. I don't think he meant as you took it Tom . I am with you these people get people into the rescue for the dts . But use the ole slide of hand and show them there first sulcata then they just have to get one . It's a great trick at the cost of another tortoise .

I agree, I too do not see it the way you, Tom, are taking it. Neal was giving just ONE example and he was not saying it is true every where or other tortoises don't weigh in too. It's just atleast in this one case, when folks come to get a DT, instead they are shown no doubt what is an adorable recently hatched sulcata. It's going to be a rare person that would take a hatchling anything, let alone a sulcata over any older tortoise.

Yes, no doubt the Russians sold at the petstores do take some homes away from DTs. Of course, a lot of Russians are kept in tiny, cramped indoor enclosures where a sulcata can not live for long, while the DT and the sulcata both are in the running for yard usage.

With any problem or even just what is believed to be a problem, there are always more then one reason why it's happening. If you take enough little seemingly unrelated and unimportant little things, it can start tipping the scale.

 

[wellington]

Ditto, that's not the way I see it either Tom.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Back to being mad at government waste: The problem with finding homes for desert tortoises is that the education and outreach is simply not there. The groups in California are volunteer run, and sadly, the state government people have hogged all the money for themselves, for their salaries and pensions, and have put the needs of the animals way back in the back. If some of the multiple millions that are doled out for the "protected desert tortoise" were actually shared with the people who do protect them, the CTTC groups for instance, the desert tortoises would always have educated families and homes.

Another case in point, the amount of money that the one solar company was forced to pay to "protect the desert tortoise" and it went where and did what for desert tortoises. Or the 159 million to 5 agencies in Nevada and when cash could no longer be made, the Nevada gopherus as reported by the Associated Press, are now disposable, and scheduled to die. And the new "only the sick ones" was back peddling from the uproar.

In California, it seems that not one penny of gazillions in decades has ever made it to the people in the trenches, the CTTC chapters who are actually helping the "protected" gopherus. Instead the money (again, multiple millions) funds folks like say, the US Army, and they, without due diligence or common sense, move the desert tortoises to their eventual deaths. I still cringe about that one.

So sulcata or desert tortoise, education and outreach. Knowledge matters. And enthusiasm generates enthusiasm. If we are excited about being tortoise keepers and hosts, and are willing to help those new to the game, those people will succeed and in turn have our enthusiasm for others ... and it keeps going ... all tortoises win.

 

[wellington]

Pretty much agree with most of what you said. Until you mentioned the US Army. The military men and women, in all branches of the military, that serve this country to protect you deserve way more then they get or will ever get!

 

[erica anne]

This is propaganda from a rescue organization. There are a few individuals and rescues that like to shout out how the sky is falling and there is a horrible sulcata overpopulation problem. They have a lot of sulcatas at some of these rescues because:
a. They usually charge a very high "adoption fee" of several hundred dollars.
b. They have to come to your house and decide if you and your yard are fit to adopt one of their tortoises.
c. You have to sign a ridiculous contract with all sorts of provisions like "they can repossess the tortoise at any time for any reason", or " the tortoise can only be given back to them and never to a friend or family member", and "you can NEVER" breed the tortoise.

By contrast, if a sulcata somehow ends up at a local shelter here it is adopted within minutes of becoming available. Of course the adoption fee is small, and there is no contract, and no one has to inspect your home, and no one tells you what you can or can't do with your own tortoise. I know of a rescue that does NOT do a, b, or c above and they adopt out their incoming sulcatas within hours or days. I personally have helped about 2 dozen large sulcatas find new homes over the years and never had any problem doing so, because I did not make people pay money, submit to inspection, or agree to absurd terms.


Agressive? Sure they are. Big males will try to kill each other. I have heard of a person tripping on one, or getting an ankle rammed, but that is not common. They will also bite a finger if you leave out there a little too long while hand feeding.

50-100 eggs per year? Yep. That's about right. Per female. There is a big demand for them and they are a great species. Like any other species they have needs that are specific to them. They grow large, eat a lot, dig big holes, and will generally wreck a back yard. Those are some negative attributes to be sure. Here are some positives: They grow big, they eat a lot, they dig cool burrows, they are super friendly and outgoing most of the time, they are beautiful majestic looking animals (depending on the eye of the beholder), and they make lots of babies to sell to help pay for all their expenses, and let other people get the same enjoyment that you get from them by raising and caring for their OWN sulcata, as you are doing now. I, for one, think it is fantastic that another sulcata will NEVER have to be taken from the wild to meet the demands of the pet trade.

This is a hot topic. Opinions and emotions run high on both sides of this argument.

Before I bought my Sulcata I tried adopting a desert tortoise. I still would love one. First, I left several messages with the Phoenix herpetological society that were never returned. Then I went to the website to find other ways to contact them. The A, B and C that you listed are the exact reasons why I finally gave up and Adopted a sulcata. I understand that they want to find good permanent homes for the tortoises but they make it such a hassle that people just don't want to deal with it.

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

I only wish they would find another way
Other then exotic pets because as long as they are called exotic there will be
Problems when a tiger or bear eats someone
And yes Jacqui it's wrong to bread DTs
But if you do you have 2yrs to move them you can trade them or sell them
But if it's illegal to breed DTs why do we have 2 yrs to move them?

---

Sorry you cannt sell or trade DTs

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Pretty much agree with most of what you said. Until you mentioned the US Army. The military men and women, in all branches of the military, that serve this country to protect you deserve way more then they get or will ever get!

Absolutely. I super agree. But who in their command, and as you know, this came from the very top, messed up so badly. It is never the men who serve but rather the very top in command who did not do their job with this relocation. Bad call and it cost us taxpayers aplenty and it cost those tortoises their lives. We pay big money for appropriate due diligence. Not knocking the US Army but not happy about this project not being handled as it should have been. Big difference.

---

Before I bought my Sulcata I tried adopting a desert tortoise. I still would love one. First, I left several messages with the Phoenix herpetological society that were never returned. Then I went to the website to find other ways to contact them. The A, B and C that you listed are the exact reasons why I finally gave up and Adopted a sulcata. I understand that they want to find good permanent homes for the tortoises but they make it such a hassle that people just don't want to deal with it.

Exactly. I had a hell of a time getting a CDT and the excuse was we are limited, we are volunteers, we cannot find your application, yada yada. Understandable. Not paid, not able. Until I heard that 3 had died while being fostered. I could have saved one. I had the resources and means. I could not believe hearing that. So I moved on and I got leopards, like you with the sulcata.

 

[reatrocity]

I'm someone who would never feel comfortable breeding any animal. However, I live and let live. As long as people are breeding responsibly, making sure they don't sell to people without clearly educating them of what it means to own a sulcata (or any animal for that matter), and are able to take back a tortoise if the owner can no longer care for it, then fine... Obviously if an animal, or a bunch of animals are being abused, I don't believe in just not doing anything about it.

Sulcatas are gorgeous, I love them. I know I'll never sit still long enough in one place to give them a proper home so I'll never buy one. I just wished people would consider what it means to truly own such a creature. Breaks my heart... but it motivates me to be the best pet owner I could be to both my tort and my dog. Aside from that, there is not much else I can do about it.

 

[[email protected]]

Awe. I laughed through this whole thread. While discounting fables they make up new ones.

With an informed and educated owner, sulcata can be wonderful companion pets.

The key is "informed" and "educated".

Once a potential owner educates themselves about these large tortoises they can make an informed decision. I took two years to learn and observe sulcata tortoises. Sill there are challenges.

Frankie does not have teeth. He rams but has never rammed me - I understand the behavior so can avoid doing dumb things around him. I will never allow him to reproduce. I educate everyone I can about the truth of sulcata. I tell people to adopt. I know how long Frankie can live so I have already created a "Pet Proximity" and set up for his adoption for after my death.

People who choose to breed sulcata are uninformed or just interested in making money which means they are still uninformed, the rest are in it for money regardless of animal wellbeing.

Sulcata are vegetarians (more hay and grass). They don't like the taste of human flesh. If they bite it's because the finger was in the wrong place.

But since I don't want anyone to buy another sulcata I will tell you that sulcata are vicious flesh eating turtles that will run you down until you die.

 

[Tom]

People who choose to breed sulcata are uninformed or just interested in making money which means they are still uninformed, the rest are in it for money regardless of animal wellbeing.

This is not correct and you do not know all the people breeding sulcatas. If I'm in it for the money, why do I give so many away for free? Are you really going to call ME uninformed? What is it you think I'm uninformed about? Their size, diet, housing needs, hatchling care, their numbers in the world?

I'd like to give you the chance to retract that absurd statement.

 

[JennBell0725]

Wow that was really an ignorant statement especially because breeders and keepers like Tom help untold amounts of sulcatas and other tortoises everyday with the husbandry techniques he has perfected. He has helped me so much with my set up for my male.
I always so much enjoy Frankies tales but it is sad to know this is what you believe. I wonder how many people have been completey turned off from adopting bc of you.

 

[[email protected]]

Tom, and me, and others are part of the INFORMED sulcata owners. And a few of those INFORMED who do breed, as in the case of Tom, not for the money but for the love of the tortoise and with care. I apologize not to clearly include these people in my scenario.

My job has always been to tell the truth (sometimes in an often odd and funny way) about the nature of sulcata.

It's just sad that the INFORMED are in the minority. In my experience, the INFORMED always try to share good information because they CARE. I forgot that here on this forum, the INFORMED roam freely.

 

[Danimal]

Hi, new guy here. I get what you are saying about the informed and uninformed, but what in this world isn't exactly like that? There are different levels of inclination to everything. Some personalities throw 110% into everything they do, others may engage at that level only with certain interests. Some know enough to get by and seem to be able to make almost anything work while their counter part knows enough to be dangerous and seems to screw everything up. There are too many to list. It is the human condition. In my chosen field I had to learn to accept, begrudgingly and with great frustration, that some people would never learn to be an (informed) enough user to protect themselves online or keep their computer running properly etc.. I do know how you feel but I would caution you not to let it callous you too much. Who will be the the teacher?

 

[AZtortMom]

This is propaganda from a rescue organization. There are a few individuals and rescues that like to shout out how the sky is falling and there is a horrible sulcata overpopulation problem. They have a lot of sulcatas at some of these rescues because:
a. They usually charge a very high "adoption fee" of several hundred dollars.
b. They have to come to your house and decide if you and your yard are fit to adopt one of their tortoises.
c. You have to sign a ridiculous contract with all sorts of provisions like "they can repossess the tortoise at any time for any reason", or " the tortoise can only be given back to them and never to a friend or family member", and "you can NEVER" breed the tortoise.

By contrast, if a sulcata somehow ends up at a local shelter here it is adopted within minutes of becoming available. Of course the adoption fee is small, and there is no contract, and no one has to inspect your home, and no one tells you what you can or can't do with your own tortoise. I know of a rescue that does NOT do a, b, or c above and they adopt out their incoming sulcatas within hours or days. I personally have helped about 2 dozen large sulcatas find new homes over the years and never had any problem doing so, because I did not make people pay money, submit to inspection, or agree to absurd terms.


Agressive? Sure they are. Big males will try to kill each other. I have heard of a person tripping on one, or getting an ankle rammed, but that is not common. They will also bite a finger if you leave out there a little too long while hand feeding.

50-100 eggs per year? Yep. That's about right. Per female. There is a big demand for them and they are a great species. Like any other species they have needs that are specific to them. They grow large, eat a lot, dig big holes, and will generally wreck a back yard. Those are some negative attributes to be sure. Here are some positives: They grow big, they eat a lot, they dig cool burrows, they are super friendly and outgoing most of the time, they are beautiful majestic looking animals (depending on the eye of the beholder), and they make lots of babies to sell to help pay for all their expenses, and let other people get the same enjoyment that you get from them by raising and caring for their OWN sulcata, as you are doing now. I, for one, think it is fantastic that another sulcata will NEVER have to be taken from the wild to meet the demands of the pet trade.

This is a hot topic. Opinions and emotions run high on both sides of this argument.

Before I bought my Sulcata I tried adopting a desert tortoise. I still would love one. First, I left several messages with the Phoenix herpetological society that were never returned. Then I went to the website to find other ways to contact them. The A, B and C that you listed are the exact reasons why I finally gave up and Adopted a sulcata. I understand that they want to find good permanent homes for the tortoises but they make it such a hassle that people just don't want to deal with it.

This is what happened to me, and this is why I have sulcates as well

 

[Arnold_rules]

As a point of reference, many of my neighbors, friends and family have sulcatas, and none of them are breeding.

Your neighbors, friends and family are not breeding, or their tortoises?

---

Why is that the problem fo us Arizonan's? Well, the way I understand it, a certain herptile sanctuary here facilitates the desert tortoise adoption process for the state. They house the animals and I do believe they handle the actual adoptions. This particular sanctuary houses several hundred adult sulcatas and intentionally breeds and sells the hatchlings all over the country. So when someone interested in adopting a desert tortoises goes to the facility to view or to pick up the tortoise, the caretakers will encourage them to take home a sulcata which are much cooler than a desert tortoise. "Why do you want a little old desert tortoise when you can have one of these cute little friendly giants?" This results in overcrowded pens of desert tortoises, of which I have seen first hand, and subjects them to an increased risk of sharing severe diseases. The vet I frequently use has shared his experiences of when he used to volunteer for this facility. He no longer does. I won't share what he has specifically told me as I don't want to misquote him, but his experiences make a very compelling case that the desert tortoises are in an extremely challenging predicament as a direct result of so many sulcatas being produced.

I know this facility, unfortunately, and your vet is pretty great (use him too). I made the mistake of taking my cub scouts to the facility, they never showed us any of the DT's and their sulcata pen was way over stocked. The facility owners did seem a little upset by me asking some questions about their husbandry of the tortoises in their care.

 

[sibi]

LeAnn, while you've backed off from your original comment, I still think you don't always tell it like it is because you have left out people who are informed, like yourself. You fixed that in your second post; however, when you stated that you laughed at the whole thread, who's comments were you laughing at? What's so funny about DT and their plight? And why would you discourage buying a sully knowing that people who are on this forum are primarily here to be informed? If you want to encourage adoptions, that's a good thing, but to brand all breeders as only interested in money is not true! Yes, many are in it for money, but not all.

 

[tortoiselady]

Hello,
Never a dull moment on TF I want to make a comment and ask a few questions, but mostly I want to keep receiving notices about this thread as I am very interested.

My comment - early in this thread someone mentioned expensive adoption fees, yard inspections, must return it if you don't keep it yourself, can take it back at anytime if it is decided you are doing wrong with it, can't breed, and must sign a crazy contract...Something along those lines - no quote here. To me this does sound extreme. A large adoption fee, can take back at anytime if it is decided you are doing wrong with it specifically I think is overboard. But I do find some of the rest of it may hold water for me - as we are doing opinions here.

If a rescue is entrusted with an animal to find it a new good loving home and they do not check the new habitat is that really doing the job they were entrusted with? If you are a good home what are you hiding one must ask? If you had to give up your tortoise/animal would you not care if the new home was looked into or just anyone can have your beloved pet that asks for it? These are not easy shoes to fill - have you walked in them?

Next, breeding obviously goes against a rescue as that is only adding work to their load. Why hold it against a rescue for trying to keep their work load reasonable? They are after all getting these animals turned into them so they do exist.

Food for though - crazy contracts with the description I read I would have to agree. But what is wrong with a contract that is mostly to inform of what you are doing and allows the rescue recognition for their work with the authorities. Rescues can be audited by the authorities too and if they don't dot their i's and cross their t's they could lose the the right and capability to do a much needed job.

I am a rescue worker so breeding isn't for me. With that said, I do see the importance of quality breeders who share extremely important information with the pet public. I happen to think Tom (southern CA Dog Trainer) is an excellent example. There is respect for the species, accountability for what he breeds, and certainly he takes responsibility. The information he shares is invaluable. On the other hand there are plenty who are not any of those things and that is where I would disagree with breeding. So, I vote for more education as I am not a fan of the government

Answer away, but please let's play nice after all everyone here is a tortoise lover so we are connected