The Mighty Odin's indoor oasis-The Build

[Odin's Gma]

This morning I was doing some reading back on some of @Tom 's threads about temps and humidity in burrows and I was curious about Odin's 3 favorite hide spots in his new enclosure.

Here is the overall pic of the set-up for reference (with him jealously guarding the few remains of food in his food dish):

When we first moved him in, he chose the far back left corner of the greenhouse , behind a tall stand of dandelion and shown through the haze of humidity shortly after it's morning misting:

The humidity in the greenhouse fluctuates between 86 and 99% and the temps between 79 and 88 degrees. So that burrowing spot made sense to me.

The other 2 hide spots are both in the cactus wing, the first is the concrete dome we made for him and used in his last enclosure:


This box has the basking light on for most of the day and the CHE set on a thermostat. The furthest areas from the light set-up can drop as low as 76 at night and under the lights fluctuates between 85 and 112 degrees.
The temps in the dome are steadily a bit lower than the rest of the box, at 72-75 degrees with moderate humidity.

But the one I find most unusual is the dugout he has created underneath the ramp:

I have temped this area as low as 69 with low humidity. With all the toasty and humid areas in the greenhouse and in the median climate box, I thought it unusual. I fully expected him to burrow behind the big spider plant in the median box, where the temps are more similar to the greenhouse temps at 78-84 and the humidity ranges from 50-70%.

I'm glad that the enclosure developed so many different micro climates (it was the plan after all) and that he is utilizing them at his leisure, I guess I just expected him to make the greenhouse his main burrowing area rather than gravitating so often to the cooler and less humid areas.

 

[Odin's Gma]

Another observation, I have noticed the Opuntia leaning forward, which I thought was them seeking the light across the box:


On closer examination I noticed this:



Those are the backsides of the two remaining plants. I don't know if those are claw marks or beak scrapes, but he is obviously slowly working them to this slanted position.

And then there is the subtle remains of the third plant, barely showing above the surface and being guarded by the ravenous beast :

R.I.Poo, beautiful opuntia, we barely knew ye.



Psst; don't tell Odin, but I have "a few" back-ups.....

 

[Tom]

There is a point here I want to try to explain…

We have a certain long term member here who speaks with authority and tells people all about what sucata tortoises need, how they should be housed, how they shouldn't be housed, and how they need a wide variety of micro climates to choose from. There is a problem with this though. This member doesn't keep sulcatas. Never has. Hasn't kept them one way, or another. All these assertions are made and elaborated upon with absolutely nothing to confirm or deny them. Often these assertions are in opposition to facts obtained by people with first hand experience with the species in question housed in the manner in question. Basically, anyone can say anything they want and its up to the reader to figure out the best course of action.

"Microclimates": How many does a young sulcata need? How much choice should we offer them and why? It is my assertion based on decades of trial and error raising sulcatas that when I give them choices, they will frequently make the wrong one. Often this wrong choice would result in their death without human intervention to help them. For example: Here in North America in our temperate climate we have cold winter nights. Sometimes below freezing. We offer heated night boxes to overcome this unacceptable, unsurvivable, climactic condition in this land that is foreign to this species. Many sulcatas, and for a wide variety of reasons, choose to go park under a bush or nosed into a corner somewhere. Don't they know what is best for them? Don't they logically know it will be too cold over night and they should go sleep in the warm box? If we were outside and cold, we would go to a known warmer area, wouldn't we? Herein lies the problem. Tortoises don't use logic. They did not evolve to deal with North American or European temperate climates. In the wild it doesn't get too cold. I don't think people understand that weather over there. Ever been to New Orleans or South Florida in summer? Its hot and humid day and night. That is like the African monsoon season in wild the sulcata range. There is no 69 degrees. Ever been to Phoenix in July or August? How cold is the coldest night in Phoenix in August? That is like the African dry season when wild sulcatas stay underground full time. Anywhere a wild sulcata over in Africa chooses to sleep is going to be warm enough. Under a bush or in a burrow, it will not get too cold, so they don't understand the concept of "Its too cold. You will die if you stay here."

So why do we need to offer all these different microclimates in our indoor enclosures when we know that they will often make a choice that is detrimental to their health and potentially fatal in some cases? They make their choices based on all sorts of competing drives and instincts. Its like the person who offers one of those ramped water bowls and when the tortoise doesn't use it because the tortoise is not comfortable with it, the person assumes the tortoises is not thirsty and doesn't need water. In reality, the tortoise's instincts tell it that NOT drowning in an awkward, dangerous bowl, is more important then getting a drink of water right now. In the wild they would avoid an uncomfortable drinking spot and just drink from a puddle during the next rain. In our enclosures, there is not going to be any rain, and no puddle. They can dehydrate and die with that full, untouched water bowl right in front of them. They can make the "wrong" choice.

So how does this apply to your situation @Odin's Gma ? Why are you offering areas with temps as low as 69 degrees? Why are you offering dry areas devoid of humidity when we know that simulating the monsoon season is what is best for them? Who convinced you that offering these choices was a good thing to do, instead of offering what is known to be best for them? That area under the ramp is a typical secure, tight, covered area that any sulcata would love to park in. The tortoise is not choosing that area because the temperature and humidity are ideal, it is choosing that area because it feels safe from predation there. In the wild, every hiding spot would have the "correct" temperature and humidity, so your tortoise is choosing based on how safe it feels there, not how warm or cold it feels there.

Another example: Put out a bowl of strawberries, banana, grapes and lettuce, next to a bowl grass clippings. Which bowl is the tortoise going to go for? Does that mean the tortoise knows that the fruit is better for it? Is that a choice we should offer because tortoises know what they need and what is best for themselves?

Personally, I would not let any area of your enclosure drop below the high 70's day or night, and I would provide the tortoise with whatever humidity I thought was best for it, rather than offer it multiple choices where it is likely to choose the wrong area for the wrong reasons.

Remember that I have done what you are doing. I've offered those choices. I've learned from many years of trial and error, emphasis on error, that when I offer the tortoise a choice between what is ideal for it and what is bad for it, they will often choose the bad thing, and sometimes the reason why is not obvious. Who knows why that tortoise chose to sit in a corner on a January night, instead of retiring in its heated box like it normally does? But I know that they sometimes do choose poorly and that is why I make sure they have what they need every day and every night. I stopped offering the bad choices and my animals are healthier, and my results are better, because of it.

Just wanted to offer this as food for thought...

 

[Odin's Gma]

So how does this apply to your situation @Odin's Gma ? Why are you offering areas with temps as low as 69 degrees? Why are you offering dry areas devoid of humidity when we know that simulating the monsoon season is what is best for them?

This is exactly why I tagged you in the post, and I thank you for the detailed response. I did and still do want to offer different climates both for his interest and for his comfort, but I did not expect the dramatic differences in the different areas, and today was the first time since this enclosure has been in use that the under-ramp temps had dropped that low, and obviously it was a concern. (I actually upped the temp in the room prior to posting to see if I could remedy that and then realized that I had taken the plexi cover off of that portion of the enclosure when I was watering everything which does raise the temp a bit when it is in place). This enclosure has only been up and running for a couple of weeks and is a work in progress, and I expected that I would have to be vigilant with the temps, especially as the temps outside start to plummet.

And I should clarify, that low humidity in this enclosure is a relative term, since I am comparing it to the high humidity in the greenhouse. The room humidity ranges from 60-70% so of course the 2 open boxes are at that at a minimum, and of course much more humid at tort level. The median box is watered daily and the cactus box about every other day, just not around the cactus, so they don't rot.

Back to my desire to offer him different climates, which is actually twofold and was sparked by some of your posts discussing the dramatic temperature and humidity differences that you have mentioned in their burrows vs. the outside temps and the African plains area they came from. In my area I will never be able to achieve the temps they were designed to live in, or even the ones you can achieve in your area, but I do want to try and get as close as possible. In addition, since his enclosure is also a food garden, the plants in each box have different heat, soil and moisture requirements. No way the cactus would survive in the dense and fertile soil and super wet conditions in the greenhouse, and no way the banana plant could survive in the drier more well-draining soil of the cactus box. I guess the best way to explain my thought process is that this is an attempt to mimic all the seasons from their native land at the same time in much, much less dramatic fashion and provide as varied a food supply for all day grazing as I possibly can.

 

[Tom]

I understand your intentions. I'm not saying intentions or your conditions are right or wrong. Just conversing here now...

Our enclosures are not the wild. Trying to understand the complexities of all that happens in the wild for any given species is both noble and futile at the same time. At some point we have to look at what facts we have right in front of us and decide what is best. This is what I have done with my care techniques.

Wild sulcatas spend 95-98% of their lives underground. All this above ground stuff that both you and I are doing and talking about is totally unlike the wild in every way. No one knows anything about what wild baby sulcatas do and very little is known about the adults either. We know they live in burrows almost all the time, but no one has ever published what burrow conditions are like. Tomas from Senegal has told me that he has collected this data, but he has not yet published it. I am guesstimating about wild burrow conditions over there based on what happens in my burrows here during summer, when my above ground temps are similar to above ground temps over there.

My point is that since none of us, including me, has any idea what wild conditions really are, we are left to examine what little we do know about the wild, what we know from our captive experience, and make our best guess at what works. Our "best guess" for the first couple of decades keeping sulcatas was all wrong. Only in the last few years have some of us been putting together where we went wrong and what does work best. In time, if people raise a few dozen sulcata babies in a few different ways, they will also understand what works and what doesn't and why. I'm just trying to save people all that time.

 

[Odin's Gma]

I understand your intentions. I'm not saying intentions or your conditions are right or wrong. Just conversing here now...

Our enclosures are not the wild. Trying to understand the complexities of all that happens in the wild for any given species is both noble and futile at the same time. At some point we have to look at what facts we have right in front of us and decide what is best. This is what I have done with my care techniques.

Wild sulcatas spend 95-98% of their lives underground. All this above ground stuff that both you and I are doing and talking about is totally unlike the wild in every way. No one knows anything about what wild baby sulcatas do and very little is known about the adults either. We know they live in burrows almost all the time, but no one has ever published what burrow conditions are like. Tomas from Senegal has told me that he has collected this data, but he has not yet published it. I am guesstimating about wild burrow conditions over there based on what happens in my burrows here during summer, when my above ground temps are similar to above ground temps over there.

My point is that since none of us, including me, has any idea what wild conditions really are, we are left to examine what little we do know about the wild, what we know from our captive experience, and make our best guess at what works. Our "best guess" for the first couple of decades keeping sulcatas was all wrong. Only in the last few years have some of us been putting together where we went wrong and what does work best. In time, if people raise a few dozen sulcata babies in a few different ways, they will also understand what works and what doesn't and why. I'm just trying to save people all that time.

Hey, if I'm doing wrong, you can say it, I'm not going to get all butt-hurt. I'm a tough old broad, i've been wrong before and I will be wrong again. I'm here to learn and that's why I am asking you, the Sultan of Sulcatas.

Even if there were hard facts on sullys in the wild, I am certain I could never come close to replicating them given my location, that is also why in the year plus since my son brought Odin home, when friends and family say they want one I have done everything possible to gently discourage it with information. I am the first one to admit that MN is one of the worst places to raise a sully and I will also freely admit that when I started doing my research and realized what a monumental task this would be I broached the subject of rehoming him with my son.
Unfortunately, I am now fully wrapped around Odin's little claw and am completely willing to do whatever it takes to keep him happy and healthy as long as he is with me. That is why I endlessly stalk this place and read pretty much everything you post on the subject!

All that said, with what you see of his new enclosure, what changes would you advise aside from upping the temps (in the works) and making it bigger (already have design plans in mind, which include another greenhouse, and am fully aware this layout may not be big enough to make it through the winter)?
Lay it on me, Sultan!

 

[Odin's Gma]

P.S, I re-temped the area under the ramp and it is now at 72 in the coolest spot. I raised the thermostat temp on the CHE in that box and also turned up the oil heater in the room and the overall house temp by a couple of degrees.

 

[Tom]

Hey, if I'm doing wrong, you can say it, I'm not going to get all butt-hurt. I'm a tough old broad, i've been wrong before and I will be wrong again. I'm here to learn and that's why I am asking you, the Sultan of Sulcatas.

I'm not shy. You know I would tell you if I thought something was really wrong!


Sultan of Sulcatas…? Pshhhh... You and Dean, I swear… I just like 'em. That's all.


I don't see anything "wrong" with your set up, except the low temps, which you are already fixing. Its just not how I would do it because building a large closed chamber just seems simpler to me and I think I can offer better conditions in a more efficient way.

Your tortoise appears to be healthy and thriving with the routine that you are following, and there is no doubt that you are enjoying yourself, and THAT is what this hobby is supposed to be all about!

I love reading your posts and hearing all your enthusiasm. Its infectious! I don't want to change that. I just wanted to share some conceptual information on this subject with you and the readership of this forum. We're here to talk torts, and by golly, that's what Ima gonna do!

 

[Odin's Gma]

I'm not shy. You know I would tell you if I thought something was really wrong!


Sultan of Sulcatas…? Pshhhh... You and Dean, I swear… I just like 'em. That's all.


I don't see anything "wrong" with your set up, except the low temps, which you are already fixing. Its just not how I would do it because building a large closed chamber just seems simpler to me and I think I can offer better conditions in a more efficient way.

Your tortoise appears to be healthy and thriving with the routine that you are following, and there is no doubt that you are enjoying yourself, and THAT is what this hobby is supposed to be all about!

I love reading your posts and hearing all your enthusiasm. Its infectious! I don't want to change that. I just wanted to share some conceptual information on this subject with you and the readership of this forum. We're here to talk torts, and by golly, that's what Ima gonna do!

I have considered enclosing the whole works, my concern is that it may limit what I can grow for a more natural grazing experience. I absolutely adore being able to watch his "stomp, stomp, munch, stomp stomp, munch" that I fell in love with over the summer in his outdoor playpen. So, at the very least, I would like to try and achieve something close to the outdoor conditions we get here in the hottest part of the summer time.
And it's no longer a hobby, it's like having a kid, I have to learn and adapt for his well being. I will make mistakes, but I won't stop trying to do better.

Also, no matter what you say, you can't change my enthusiasm. He is Just. So. Awesome! And, @DeanS is on to something, you really should have an official title or something, jus' sayin'. I do appreciate your input and taking time to look at his set-up. Thanks!

 

[Prairie Mom]

Fun and interesting reading. Fabulous photos and definitely great enthusiasm as usual Gma!

 

[dwright27]

I have questions!

#1. Would this work for a redfoot?
#2. Would you mind giving a cost estimate (so far), excluding the plants? (I'm in Canada so the plants available to me might differ slightly)
#3. What would you do if you had to move? lol
#4. How do you keep the cat out of it? Is the enclosure in its own room with a shut door?
#5. Can someone build this for meeeeeee.... modular-style? lol

 

[Odin's Gma]

I have questions!

#1. Would this work for a redfoot?
#2. Would you mind giving a cost estimate (so far), excluding the plants? (I'm in Canada so the plants available to me might differ slightly)
#3. What would you do if you had to move? lol
#4. How do you keep the cat out of it? Is the enclosure in its own room with a shut door?
#5. Can someone build this for meeeeeee.... modular-style? lol

1. Absolutely! I don't know redfoot requirements, but with this set-up it's easy enough to modify the temps and humidity if it's necessary.
2. That is hard to say. I didn't buy everything at once, I spread it out over a several weeks because that is what my budget demanded, a couple hundred a paycheck over a couple of months. I would estimate around 250-350 for the structure supplies (wood, liner, screws, Drylok, caulk), about 35$ for the greenhouse, another 35$ for the new oil heater, maybe 15$ for the fan, another 15$ for the 4ft light fixture and a few bucks for each lightbulb. What else....Oh! The soil maybe 20-30 dollars. The two dual bulb light fixture were about 25$ a piece and the holders for them were about 20$ each. The basking bulb was about 10$, the CHE are only a few a piece, and the MVBs are 30-50 a piece. We have two outlet strips with timers built in that were 15$ each, and two other single timers that were about 5$ each and a thermostat that was about 20$. I think that was it, so, maybe $650?
3. The three pieces are not permanently attached to each other, a couple of small screws just to keep them stable, which wasn't really necessary because of the weight of the soil, so the two smaller pieces will be easy to move. The larger box will be a pain though. We will have to unscrew the wood pieces that the 4ft light fixture hangs on because I think the box will have to be tilted slightly to the side to fit through the doorway, and whomever moves it will have to be incredibly strong if you don't remove the soil. Fortunately my guys have that strength. I do not.
4. Yes, he has his own room and the door remains closed at all times. That is not only to keep those irritating felines out, but also to keep all that heat and humidity contained.
5. If you were a bit closer i'm sure my son would love to! He had a blast!

 

[Odin's Gma]

Aside from the fact that Odin refuses to let any of the seedlings grow to maturity, everything is going beautifully! Still tweaking temps, but since the last time I had time to play on the forum, all of the temps I was concerned about are up a few degrees from where they were, so we are moving in the right direction.

It's tough to get good pics when he is in the greenhouse because of the humidity fog, and because he loves to hide on the far end in his self-dug burrow, but here is my dirty little grump giving me the threatening stinkeye for disturbing his happy place.

 

[Odin's Gma]

Temp update!
This morning shortly after the lights started cycling on (which is when I get the coldest readings)
Room is at 78 degrees with humidity at about 65-70% overall
Greenhouse is at 87 degrees and 84% humidity.

These are all soil readings, not air, wall or decor readings, taken with my super sweet temp phaser (because i'm a dork and calling it a phaser makes me happy!):
The concrete hide is at 75 degrees
Under the ramp is 74
Basking spot is at 92
Under the MVB with only the CHE on right now is at 85
Under the larger plants not in the greenhouse I am also getting readings of 74
So, @Tom , keep going? Are lows of 74 in the coolest spots and the coldest time of day too cool?

Also, wasps gone, and no sign of soil fungus! My little buddies, the soil centipedes, have colonized nicely in all 3 boxes, which not only keeps other bugs in check, but they also do a nice job of cleaning up rotting food or other plant matter that Odin tracks around. I am finally getting the little ecosystem I was after!

Now, if he would only let the seedlings grow! I did start 2 trays of seedlings upstairs, and once they are ready I will start to transplant. I think I will dig up a few chunks of weeds from his playpen in the meantime.

 

[Tom]

So, @Tom , keep going? Are lows of 74 in the coolest spots and the coldest time of day too cool?

Yes, I think so. I'd never let a baby sulcata drop to 74 or 75. I've let older ones like yours drop to 78ish, but I think 74 is too low.

If he got a respiratory infection from the cool temps, I know you'd feel awful, and that is the danger here. Warmer temps will simply prevent it.

 

[Odin's Gma]

I know you'd feel awful.

Devastated is more like it!

Formulating a plan now.....stay tuned!

 

[johnandjade]

Temp update!
This morning shortly after the lights started cycling on (which is when I get the coldest readings)
Room is at 78 degrees with humidity at about 65-70% overall
Greenhouse is at 87 degrees and 84% humidity.

These are all soil readings, not air, wall or decor readings, taken with my super sweet temp phaser (because i'm a dork and calling it a phaser makes me happy!):
The concrete hide is at 75 degrees
Under the ramp is 74
Basking spot is at 92
Under the MVB with only the CHE on right now is at 85
Under the larger plants not in the greenhouse I am also getting readings of 74
So, @Tom , keep going? Are lows of 74 in the coolest spots and the coldest time of day too cool?

Also, wasps gone, and no sign of soil fungus! My little buddies, the soil centipedes, have colonized nicely in all 3 boxes, which not only keeps other bugs in check, but they also do a nice job of cleaning up rotting food or other plant matter that Odin tracks around. I am finally getting the little ecosystem I was after!

Now, if he would only let the seedlings grow! I did start 2 trays of seedlings upstairs, and once they are ready I will start to transplant. I think I will dig up a few chunks of weeds from his playpen in the meantime.

sounds like tort paradise, great job! take a bow maam

 

[dwright27]

1. Absolutely! I don't know redfoot requirements, but with this set-up it's easy enough to modify the temps and humidity if it's necessary.
2. That is hard to say. I didn't buy everything at once, I spread it out over a several weeks because that is what my budget demanded, a couple hundred a paycheck over a couple of months. I would estimate around 250-350 for the structure supplies (wood, liner, screws, Drylok, caulk), about 35$ for the greenhouse, another 35$ for the new oil heater, maybe 15$ for the fan, another 15$ for the 4ft light fixture and a few bucks for each lightbulb. What else....Oh! The soil maybe 20-30 dollars. The two dual bulb light fixture were about 25$ a piece and the holders for them were about 20$ each. The basking bulb was about 10$, the CHE are only a few a piece, and the MVBs are 30-50 a piece. We have two outlet strips with timers built in that were 15$ each, and two other single timers that were about 5$ each and a thermostat that was about 20$. I think that was it, so, maybe $650?
3. The three pieces are not permanently attached to each other, a couple of small screws just to keep them stable, which wasn't really necessary because of the weight of the soil, so the two smaller pieces will be easy to move. The larger box will be a pain though. We will have to unscrew the wood pieces that the 4ft light fixture hangs on because I think the box will have to be tilted slightly to the side to fit through the doorway, and whomever moves it will have to be incredibly strong if you don't remove the soil. Fortunately my guys have that strength. I do not.
4. Yes, he has his own room and the door remains closed at all times. That is not only to keep those irritating felines out, but also to keep all that heat and humidity contained.
5. If you were a bit closer i'm sure my son would love to! He had a blast!

Thank you for your answers! Not sure I'd be able to provide an entire room, so I still might go with a wood + glass closed chamber. I just don't know how to build and I have no desire/time to learn at the moment lol. I still have time, he'll be okay in his 75g for a little bit longer.

It's been impossible to find someone in my area to build an enclosure for me lol. I've "stolen" one of your photos and saved it to my Evernote though for future reference.

I forgot about the cost of things in the US and the exchange rate. The MVB I get for my RF is around $80 CAD. So that'll tell you the difference for just about everything else in the list lol.

 

[Odin's Gma]

Thank you for your answers! Not sure I'd be able to provide an entire room, so I still might go with a wood + glass closed chamber. I just don't know how to build and I have no desire/time to learn at the moment lol. I still have time, he'll be okay in his 75g for a little bit longer.

It's been impossible to find someone in my area to build an enclosure for me lol. I've "stolen" one of your photos and saved it to my Evernote though for future reference.

I forgot about the cost of things in the US and the exchange rate. The MVB I get for my RF is around $80 CAD. So that'll tell you the difference for just about everything else in the list lol.

As far as costs, I purchased as much as I could online. For example, MVBs in the pet stores tend to run around 50-70 dollars and I have found them online for as little as 30, online you also have a nearly unlimited selection, whereas in stores you are stuck with what is usually one or two of the more expensive brands. Also, light fixtures are cheaper at home improvement centers than they are at pet stores. The 4ft fluorescent fixture I purchased is just a cheap shop light, around 12 dollars, similar sized aquarium and habitat lighting can run from 70-200 dollars.

The build itself doesn't have to be nearly as involved as ours either. An old dresser or bookcase can easily be converted as a base and many here have done exactly that. Really, the options are as unlimited as your imagination.

I wish you luck, it has been a blast!

 

[Odin's Gma]

sounds like tort paradise, great job! take a bow maam

*Bows deeply, then breaks into a little dance*

Thank you, kind sir! I can't wait until the plants take off!