Vet visit questions

[CathyNed]

@Rue @Kori5 @JoesMum @Yvonne G @Sara G. @martaemha @Lyn W

So Neds home!!! Collected him after work last night. Vet showed me his xray. He is low on calcium. His shell should have showed up whiter on xray and she thinks that is the cause of his probs regarding back legs and jaw. She doesnt think it is standard MBD as his shell has no softening. Recommended to give nutrobal daily for now and of course plenty of uvb and real sun when possible.

She also recommends a change of substrate from wood chip/bark as it is to dry and no good for digging in. She said his legs show sign of muscle wastage and a better substrate would help him build up more strength in his legs by digging properly and also that the bark has no traction and just slides from him when he is walking.She recommended ordinary compost. I mentioned about the presence of fertiliser in it and she said she had never had any problems with it. Im unsure whether to use compost, topsoil,peat or coco coir in there so i guess im looking for advice on that. Do these substrates not cause problems in their eyes or with eating it?

She said she there is no way to say whether his legs will fully improve but said that giving his spirited temperment he is not going to give up trying.

His diet is good and she said to keep up same feeding and that hopefully with infection clear he will be able to absorb the iron and protein he needs.

He is still pretty puffy in my eyes. She has given me medication to give for 1 week to reduce swelling and thinks that these symptoms are caused by his calcium/protein deficiency. She aspirated his jaws and said there was no fluid. It is calcite deposit left after calcium leeching from the jaw. She said it will not go away but he is not in pain and that his jaw is still strong. (I know this myself because he has bitten me instead of his food once already today)

The rough layers of skin are gone from his neck and tops of legs. She gave me an antibiotic barrier cream to put on the peeling cracks on his lower legs after bathing to encourage them to peel too. She also said the bark substrate was harsh on new skin as he is dragging legs.

On arrival back at home he is far more alert and seems to be stronger already. He is definately heavier. His appetite is insatiable. He is absolutely stuffing his face....constantly.He is digging or trying to. Im intending to change substrate over weekend so looking for best options.So far so good! Delighted to have his little face back. Thanks everyone!

 

[Rue]

Excellent news! I was looking forward to a positive update!

Regarding substrate - it's one of those topics were I've read nothing but conflicting advice.

I have cypress mulch in the indoor enclosure and Goosefoot has had no issue with it - she walks on it, she digs in it.

I tried a mix of mostly peat moss (90%) and some cypress mulch (10%) in the outdoor enclosure, and she was very excited about it. She spent her entire time tunnelling under it all. Took a moment to find her when it was time to come back indoors...

So the peat is much better for tunneling, but I find the cypress mulch more convenient for cleaning and maintaining. We might have to compromise...

When I clean out her indoor enclosure, I might try mostly cypress mulch with peat moss and see if we can find a happy medium. Maybe 75% cypress and 25% peat? Or 50/50?

 

[CathyNed]

@Rue How wet do you keep your mulch? Do you spray it on top and mix it through or do you tip water in and mix it all in? How often do you dampen it? Maybe i should just give peat moss a go? I know if it was damp and compacted it would be much more comfortable for him than scraping along on the wood chips. I cant see how it doesnt bother their eyes. If Ned gets dust in his eye it drives him crazy what would he be like with bits of peat.
Also he is a very messy eater. I have to tear his food up and he takes up a whole load in one go backs away from the dish...attempts to get it all into his mouth,drops most of it and then tries to eat it off the bark. He definately doesnt have the sense not to eat the bark. If it ends up in his mouth with his food he WILL swallow it. Thats why i was waiting till weekend to do the changeover as i will be at home and can watch and see if he is inclined to eat it.

I think it would be soil/peat would be better for humidity as he seems to dry out under the lamps and the bark dries so quickly

 

[Rue]

It's a smaller enclosure and I spray it heavily, I put a litre of water in it a day. But the top is open, so that makes a difference. It is moist on both ends and drier in the middle in case she wants a dry spot. I mist in the morning to simulate dew and again at night - to simulate dew, lol.

In the outdoor enclosure I'm not sure what to do. It dried out overnight and I've watered it since, but not enough. I think I will have to water it and stir it to get it uniformly moist again. I might have to get in the habit of watering it daily as well, whether she uses it or not - otherwise I'll constantly be disturbing the décor (and any plants I might put in).

 

[Sara G.]

I use a mix of organic top soil and coco coir in my indoor enclosure. Works pretty well.
The humidity is high because I have a closed chamber but the top of the soil is dry so I have no worries with shell rot. And it packs down nicely but she can dig in it relatively easily.

 

[CathyNed]

I use a mix of organic top soil and coco coir in my indoor enclosure. Works pretty well.
The humidity is high because I have a closed chamber but the top of the soil is dry so I have no worries with shell rot. And it packs down nicely but she can dig in it relatively easily.

How do you keep the top dry Sara? Is it that the lights dry it out on the top layer? Any probs with eating it or their eyes? Also worried about shell rot. Last thing he needs.

 

[Sara G.]

It just dries out on its own.
I have a closed chamber with an MVB on one side and a CHE on the other side.
Occasionally I'll stir up the substrate just to keep it from getting funky, I've had mushrooms grow on the darker side of the enclosure. Ugh.
You can always put a nice flat rock/paver stone (sunk level to the substrate) or piece of slate under the basking area. That way when your tort goes to bask, he'll be able to completely dry out his plastron because the rock or whatever will be dry & warm from the basking light.

I feed my tort on a paved stone sunk into the substrate. And OH YES, she drags her food all over the place. So naturally there's a bit of dirt on it. But I figure in the wild they'd ingest dirt as well while foraging for food, so it doesn't worry me at all.
If it was sand, that would be a different story.

 

[Lyn W]

Welcome home Ned! So pleased for you that he is looking and probably feeling better too.
Do you use cuttlefish bone for him? (the same as they use in birds cages but with the metal or plastic cage clips removed)
My tort ignores his for ages and then he will have a good munch on it. Helps keep his beak trim as well as providing calcium.
You can also scrape some of that over his food a small pinch 2 or 3 times a week - too much can cause stones I believe.

 

[CathyNed]

Welcome home Ned! So pleased for you that he is looking and probably feeling better too.
Do you use cuttlefish bone for him? (the same as they use in birds cages but with the metal or plastic cage clips removed)
My tort ignores his for ages and then he will have a good munch on it. Helps keep his beak trim as well as providing calcium.
You can also scrape some of that over his food a small pinch 2 or 3 times a week - too much can cause stones I believe.

Hi Lyn, i know im delighted!
Ya i have cuttle bone in with him. He hadnt really bothered with it since i put it in about six weeks ago but i had been scraping it onto his food. A couple of years ago he had one and was quite fond of it but he kept dragging or pushing it into his water and it went all horrible and i took what was left of it out. Im putting reptobal on the food everyday. For a while to see how he gets on but the cuttle bone is in there too. His beak is a tad overgrown alright but the vet thought he had been traumatised enough for now and as it wasnt affecting his eating at the minute she would leave it be for now.
Any advice on substrate Lyn?

 

[Rue]

How is doing today? Has he settled back quickly into his 'home'?

 

[CathyNed]

My

It just dries out on its own.
I have a closed chamber with an MVB on one side and a CHE on the other side.
Occasionally I'll stir up the substrate just to keep it from getting funky, I've had mushrooms grow on the darker side of the enclosure. Ugh.
You can always put a nice flat rock/paver stone (sunk level to the substrate) or piece of slate under the basking area. That way when your tort goes to bask, he'll be able to completely dry out his plastron because the rock or whatever will be dry & warm from the basking light.

I feed my tort on a paved stone sunk into the substrate. And OH YES, she drags her food all over the place. So naturally there's a bit of dirt on it. But I figure in the wild they'd ingest dirt as well while foraging for food, so it doesn't worry me at all.
If it was sand, that would be a different story.

Ya mines a closed one too but im also working on an outdoor enclosure and looking for any info. I use basking one side, tube type uvb along centre and have also got the fixtures etc to hook up a che just right of centre. Havent needed a che yet as our house is very warm. Night temps are plenty high enough without the che for the minute. Im thinking my top layer would dry too under the heat and be ok. He tends to bask, move around to eat, drink, bathe etc and head back to basking spot. He generally sleeps in the spot under the basking lamp at night even though its turned off. I intended to maybe keep that spot he usually sleeps in dry and wet the substrate in the rest of the enclosure?

 

[CathyNed]

How is doing today? Has he settled back quickly into his 'home'?

Came home from work to find him fully in his water dish. No idea how long hes been in it. Its a plant saucer sunk into the substrate. Ive never seen him lie for any length of time in it before. Im hoping it wasnt a case that he couldnt get out.... ive seen him walk through it with out problem though so would imagine he could do it. He seemed to be relaxed. He wasnt making any attemp to get out. Unless he had worn himself out? Maybe he is thirsty after antibiotics etc. Not working now till Monday so i will be better able to keep an eye on his comings and goings during the day and watch how he gets on with the dish.

 

[Kori5]

I'm so happy he is back home . How is he doing today? Regarding the substrate question, I use coconut coir. I usually water it once a week, mix it and tap it with hands. That way the surface dries and it stays hydrated beneath so he can dig. I never had any problems with Kori eating it but sometimes it sticks with his food so he does. The only problem with it is it's messy and gets everywhere .

 

[Kori5]

Came home from work to find him fully in his water dish. No idea how long hes been in it. Its a plant saucer sunk into the substrate. Ive never seen him lie for any length of time in it before. Im hoping it wasnt a case that he couldnt get out.... ive seen him walk through it with out problem though so would imagine he could do it. He seemed to be relaxed. He wasnt making any attemp to get out. Unless he had worn himself out? Maybe he is thirsty after antibiotics etc. Not working now till Monday so i will be better able to keep an eye on his comings and goings during the day and watch how he gets on with the dish.

I doubt he wasn't able to get out. Sometimes they like to spend some time in their water dishes . But keep an eye on him.

 

[JoesMum]

I created a thread about the steps I use to keep Joe outdoors as much as possible. It may be of use to you
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/outdoor-accommodation-in-a-colder-uk-climate.140866/

 

[Sara G.]

You could definitely keep just the area he sleeps in dry and just keep the rest of the substrate damp/slightly damp. I get the feeling that it'll dry out a lot faster than you think. The coir seems to dry out really fast, the top soil I used? Not so much.

 

[CathyNed]

I created a thread about the steps I use to keep Joe outdoors as much as possible. It may be of use to you
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/outdoor-accommodation-in-a-colder-uk-climate.140866/

Yes thanks i had seen it pinned to the enclosure section but thanks for linking here. I have ordered a raised bed for his enclosure. Will make a couple of smaller frames on hinges with wire mesh as a top to protect against predators. Was planning to grass seed half of it and use top soil for the rest. Now im thinking thirds -grass, topsoil and some dark paving slabs that will absob heat better and putting them in the sunniest side.

 

[Lyn W]

Hi Lyn, i know im delighted!
Ya i have cuttle bone in with him. He hadnt really bothered with it since i put it in about six weeks ago but i had been scraping it onto his food. A couple of years ago he had one and was quite fond of it but he kept dragging or pushing it into his water and it went all horrible and i took what was left of it out. Im putting reptobal on the food everyday. For a while to see how he gets on but the cuttle bone is in there too. His beak is a tad overgrown alright but the vet thought he had been traumatised enough for now and as it wasnt affecting his eating at the minute she would leave it be for now.
Any advice on substrate Lyn?

Because Lola has his own room and it isn't possible to cover the whole floor with substrate I use huge trays of coco coir and orchid bark which I pour water into to keep it moist and pat the top down to firm it up. I feed him on slate, but food rarely stays there as he walks through it and drags it everywhere! I use sphagnum moss in his humid hide. The caresheet may give you some ideas.
Lola goes through phases with his cuttlebone too.

 

[Sara G.]

Pictures would be very helpful. Dogs and tortoises don't ever mix. If the injury is that bad, you really need to find a vet.

 

[Kori5]

You have to take him to the vet because it won't heal on it's own.