Where is Dots from??

[cordell]

I took a few pictures here to try and figure out what Dots is. Colombian, Cherry Head, and so on. If anyone has any input and or knowledge they can offer from these pics I would appreciate it.

Thanks
Cordell

 

[N2TORTS]

I took a few pictures here to try and figure out what Dots is. Colombian, Cherry Head, and so on. If anyone has any input and or knowledge they can offer from these pics I would appreciate it.

Thanks
Cordell
**********************
Cordell & Dots~
Good looking little guy ! .. Love the dots! ... but my opinion he is not a cherryhead ( bottom plastron photo is the clue!) Most cherry's will have a dark vertical line, marbled dark or even almost all black ...plastron. This holds true to all of my own cherrys and what I have learned from others on here. Plus any visually I have seen in person ranging in ages from hatchlings to 17 year old adults * Here is a young cherry 6"SCL*

Looks like a great lil tort .. No doubt!
JD

 

[cordell]

Thanks, the breeder/pet shop (he breeds all sorts of reptiles) sold him as a red foot. I was reading another thread that identifies where their red foots came from. I was wondering what part of the rain forest this little guys ancestors are from. Does it make that much of a difference when creating their habitat as to where the ancestors are from, or do they all pretty much follow the same guidelines? He has no shame when it comes to eating food and pooping in or on whatever he is standing on, including my hand! lol

thanks
cordell

 

[Scooter]

I love the name!

 

[t_mclellan]

I'll try my best to be quick about this but the age of the animal & history of the adults limits the ability to a give definite local.

The photo's suggest a "Northern Redfoot".
Going on only seeing these photo's & knowing a little about importing over the years, But nothing about the adults that produced it.
I'm going to "GUESS" that the adults were exported from Guyana or Guiana, However you spell or pronounce it, They are the same country.
This does not mean that the adults are from there, Just that the animals MOST LIKELY but not definitely came from within 500 miles or so, Of the broker that shipped them.

If the breeder you bought "Dot" from does a bit of checking, They can most likely find the U.S. Broker / Importer (of the adults), But I doubt that you will get any closer than the "Country of Origin" (where they were exported from) in the end.

If "Dot" is an F2, F3, F4 or F5 (I don't know of any F6 Redfoots in the USA)
The process is the same. Just keep back tracking. But the further down the F list you go the harder it will be to trace the true lineage.


I hope this made sense.

 

[Candy]

Wow this stuff is complicated. I get more confused with every post about Cherryheads. I'm starting to think that we got extremely lucky when we found Dale at that petstore.

Dots is a very cute little tortoise.

 

[cordell]

Thanks!

I was following everything until the F2 F3 and what not. I will accept Northern Red Foot, lol. With him being a northern does anything change as far as husbandry? Or they all follow the same model for the most part? I wouldnt have minded a cherry head myself but when my wife and I found this reptile shop we watched Dots eating and we both had to get him! It just cracks me up how food seems to be this little guys only mission in life. Food, food, and more food! lol

cordell[/i]

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Thanks!

I was following everything until the F2 F3 and what not. I will accept Northern Red Foot, lol. With him being a northern does anything change as far as husbandry? Or they all follow the same model for the most part? I wouldnt have minded a cherry head myself but when my wife and I found this reptile shop we watched Dots eating and we both had to get him! It just cracks me up how food seems to be this little guys only mission in life. Food, food, and more food! lol

cordell[/i]

I agree with Tom of course. The lineage of "F's" really means how much mix there is in the blood-lines. Most keepers [ again ] would be suprised or shocked to find out how many "mutts-were-in-the-mix" with their redfoots -- and that does include the Brazilians'.

Same care.. warm.. humid.. dim/limited lighting.. sight barriers and don't over-feed especially. It's too easy to overfeed because of the way they enjoy it. The first year their purpose is to eat to stay alive.. hide to keep from being eaten.. and to be left alone - which is probly why he usually runs off if there is nothing left to eat.. looking for a place to hide/escape...

Terry K

BTW.. you may want to take a look at the redfootcare link in my signature.

 

[t_mclellan]

I was a bit vague again as usual.
Some clarity,
The "F" does refer to the breeding but means;
F1= Captive born & bred from wild caught adults.
F2= Captive born & bred from captive born adults.
It goes on from there. There is a bit more to it than Terry implied.
A pure bred hatchling from 1.1 Colombian imports would be an F1.
A hatchling mix between a Colombian import & a Guyana import would also be an F1.

 

[cdmay]

"I agree with Tom of course. The lineage of "F's" really means how much mix there is in the blood-lines. Most keepers [ again ] would be suprised or shocked to find out how many "mutts-were-in-the-mix" with their redfoots -- and that does include the Brazilians'."
Terry K

Actually, that is not true. 'The lineage of "F's" as Terry puts it does in NO WAY imply how much mix there is in the bloodline.
It simply indicates how many generations (identified as F followed by a number) an animal has descended from wild caught parents.
It is probably true that some breeders who had red foots from Colombia, the Guyana's and Surinam allowed them to intermingle. But as these are of the same general phenotype--often referred to as "northern" , the resulting offspring could still be identified as northern animals even though the subtle characters that are unique to the individual populations would be muted.
When the first shipments of the very different looking cherryheads arrived here in the early 80s (1983 as I remember), as well as the REALLY different giant Bolivians in 1980 most reputable keepers made serious efforts to breed these animals true without mixing up the lineages.
But, some breeders didn't seem to care who bred who. Others came up with the not so brilliant idea of crossing obviously unique animals from different regions of South America just to see what they could get. I would stress though that these folks are in the tiny minority.
I think that if you purchase a northern hatchling, or a cherryhead, or a Bolivian/Paraguyan chaco form of red foot today and it otherwise fits what is commonly known about how that tortoise should appear, then it doubtful that it is anything else.
True, there may be a possiblity that there may have been some other phenotype somewhere in the mix but I wouldn't worry about it.
Here is a thought...purchase your captive hatched tortoises from reputable breeders.

 

[Madkins007]

I have a question about this F1, F2 thing but I am going to start a new thread about it in the Debatable Topics section to avoid hijacking this thread.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

"I agree with Tom of course. The lineage of "F's" really means how much mix there is in the blood-lines. Most keepers [ again ] would be suprised or shocked to find out how many "mutts-were-in-the-mix" with their redfoots -- and that does include the Brazilians'."
Terry K

Once again I failed to make myself clear.. as Carl replied! I was saying virtually the same thing but the "mix" term in my statement was not the best to use. When I said mix I meant how many times did a particular [ characteristic/color ] 'gene' have an opportunity to show because of the number of "new" generations created.

I dare say that more of the "mutts-in-the-mix" are showing today than 30+ years ago.. if for no other reason because there are more 'back-yard' breeders!

Case in point.. I have a friend that acquired a group of "Dwarf" Cherryheads a few years back from those hand-picked from a few of the earliest shipments coming into southern FL. He sent me a few pics of an 8"(?) female nesting.. and believes that originally they ( Cherryheads )were all smaller. Then how come we have 12+" females?

Where have the "orange" Cherryheads come from? 'Opportunistic' color genes as a result of selective breeding? Hardly enough generation time is there?

Just wondering and asking...

Terry K

 

[cordell]

I have a question about this F1, F2 thing but I am going to start a new thread about it in the Debatable Topics section to avoid hijacking this thread.

Feel free to run with it. I am curious about this too. I am going to contact the breeder and find out what info he has on Dots parents, and maybe even their parents. Give me a day though, I am beat today from the time change. Today is/was my monday! grrrrr lol

cordell

---

If one of the more experienced red foot keepers want to call the breeder as you will know what to ask here is the info.

http://www.ultimatereptiles.com/

Pets A Plenty
Ultimate Reptile Shop
23933 nichols sawmill rd
Hockley TX 77447
281-356-3560

He has all sorts of cool reptiles in the shop. Poison snakes and all! He has permit for them , dont worry, lol.
Or just let me know what I should ask about Dots parents....

Thanks
cordell

 

[allegraf]

Case in point.. I have a friend that acquired a group of "Dwarf" Cherryheads a few years back from those hand-picked from a few of the earliest shipments coming into southern FL. He sent me a few pics of an 8"(?) female nesting.. and believes that originally they ( Cherryheads )were all smaller. Then how come we have 12+" females?

Where have the "orange" Cherryheads come from? 'Opportunistic' color genes as a result of selective breeding? Hardly enough generation time is there?
***

I am not sure what you are trying to say. Please clarify. Do you believe that most of the variations from red, adult cherryheads have other redfoot type blood in them because they are orange or breeding larger or that selective breeding within the cherryheads have resulted in the variation of color and size?

I have read from many of the "old timers" that were lucky enough to see the 1980s shipment of cherryheads that there were many different colors varying from yellow to red. I don't think the variations are a mix of anything, rather the off colors were not as popular since the horrible misnomer "cherryhead" was attached to them. An orange or yellow head does not say "CHERRY" to me. If I were a pet shop owner, I would only promote the red ones that are obviously "cherryheads" to help sell, sell, sell. Marketing gimick and all that.

It is my understanding that torts continue to grow throughout their lifetime, much slower as they get older. Before you ask, it is something I picked up along the way and by no means can I verify it and I may be wrong. I have several cherryheads that started breeding under 9". I would like to hope that as they get older and grow that they will continue to produce babies at 12"+.

I have a few orange cherryheads and I do not believe they were diluted with any other type of redfoot. I could be wrong, but they have the classic cherryhead characteristics, bulbous nose, X pattern on their noses, scale spur on their front legs, mottled pastrons, etc. With the baby mutts that my grandmother accidentally produced, as they get older, the differences from the full cherryheads are becoming more apparent.

Allegra

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Allegra I'm not trying to say.. I'm asking. Why the differences?

Isn't it strange that someone that I spoke with on the phone just last week claims [ who was there when the very FIRST shipment came in from ? and they 'named' them cherryheads ] he never saw anything but RED redfoots from that and other multiple shipments. All with the characteristics ( you've mentioned ) that we have come to recognize.

In this year as well as the next few I [ as well as others I'm sure ] will have 'Brazilian' females that will reach the 8-9" size that will have an opportunity. In fact my 9+" alpha cherryhead male was breeding one this a.m. And Carl has one that he claims never nested until she was 12". Proving once again there will always be "exceptions and extremes".

From that friend of mine [ he believes 'cherryheads/Brazilians' ARE a smaller redfoot ] -

Terry K

 

[cdmay]

Allegra I'm not trying to say.. I'm asking. Why the differences?

Isn't it strange that someone that I spoke with on the phone just last week claims [ who was there when the very FIRST shipment came in from ? and they 'named' them cherryheads ] he never saw anything but RED redfoots from that and other multiple shipments. All with the characteristics ( you've mentioned ) that we have come to recognize.

I have said this numerous times but evidently it needs repeating.
In the original shipment of cherryheads the most common color was coral/orange or orange, not bright red. In later shipments the same held true--the bright red individual animals sure did stick out, but they were the exceptions not the rule.
I (not someone I talked to on the phone) personally saw over 3000 imports of this type of redfoot in the early 1980s. The cherry heads I currently have came from a group of over 250 that I (not someone I talked to on the phone 15 years later) spent a long time picking through. In that group there were some really screaming red headed tortoises--but they were the exceptional ones and not the majority. As a matter of fact, only one of the cherry heads that I got in the 1990s from that group of over 250 has bright red color. The reason is because there simply wasn't that many bright red ones in the collection to choose from.
If anyone claims that it was otherwise then I would suggest that their memory has faded or that they saw a group of hand picked animals the represented the extreme. Or they are telling you something you want to hear. If they saw the entire shipments without the reddest individuals being plucked out, they would know that most cherry heads are not bright red.
As for wondering why it could possibly be that some cherryheads grow to be fairly large animals without having some other genetic influence well, that is just a statement that reflects a general lack of knowledge or ignorance of imported tortoises.
One could argue that how could it be that some imported yellow foots grow to be 30 inches in captivity when they have never seen any 30 inch animals imported or offered for sale on Kingsnake.com? Should they assume that all of the really large captive yellow foots must have Galapagos blood in them? Likewise, how could it possibly be that there are captive leopard tortoises here in the U.S. that are 30 pounds and yet you never see new imports that size? They must be hybrids with sulcatas right?
Of course not.
The fact is that importers usually pay the same amount for a wild tortoise whether it is a 6 inch animal or a 12 inch one. So why on earth would they pay the heavy shipping costs to import three 12 inch tortoises when they could import 50 smaller ones for the same price?
Really, the only time you see groups of 10 to 12 inch tortoises imported is when shipments of red foots and yellow foots come in from Guyana and Surinam. The reason for this is because the smaller sized tortoises in these countries are simply too hard to find in numbers in habitat.
The reason the majority of imported cherryheads were smaller animals had to do with three factors: 1, its cheaper and more profitable to ship smaller tortoises. 2, Evidently the habitat where the cherryheads come from is very harsh and there is some environmental factor that makes the wild grown tortoises grow very slowly and look older and more worn than red foots that live in more benign places. 3, many of the cherryheads supposedly came from 'farms' that had no logical reason to grow their tortoises to large adult sizes before shipping them here.
So common sense would dictate that even the older looking (although smaller) imported cherryheads would start growing once they came here and received a better diet and care that what they got in the wild. Also, the so called farmed animals would likewise continue to grow with some animals growing a good deal larger than others. Some of these imports may remain relatively small throughout their lives---one of my long term males will probably never get larger than 10 inches. But I would bet that most of the captive hatched young will grow to be a good bit larger than their imported parents.
The same condition happened with the Hog Island boas that came in 20 years ago. Very few of these imported boas were larger than 4 feet even though they appeared mature and some even bred at that size. Many dealers even called them 'dwarf boas'. But the F1 baby boas from those imports grew like crazy and 9 footers got to be common. It was just a matter of giving them the opportunity to express their genetic potential.
Wow, I didn't even have to talk to somebody on the phone for all that.

 

[t_mclellan]

I was the guy on the phone!

Ok Terry;
I remember our conversation & I remember you asking the colors.
I believe my response was "Red in varying degrees". You asked if I saw orange & I think we settled on "Salmon" just cuz I didn't think they were "ORANGE".

Carl I'm sure my memory is not the best, Although I do remember those shipments vividly. You are correct! Whatever you, me, we or anyone wants to call the colors that were in the shipment. They were not all red! Terry & I did discus that.
Did I scrutinize all the animals in the shipment? NO! 90% of my time was packing orders, feeding & watering.

Terry;
I like you, you make me laugh!
Please refrain from extrapolating on statements in our conversations.

Now that the man behind the curtain has been reveled, I think I'm done!

 

[cdmay]

I was the guy on the phone!

Ok Terry;
I remember our conversation & I remember you asking the colors.
I
Terry;
I like you, you make me laugh!
Please refrain from extrapolating on statements in our conversations.

Tom, I can't stop screaming---laughter, I mean.

I think the issue over what color red they were is the problem. When I hear people say 'cherry red' heads I think of the few individuals that were that bright strawberry or cherry red. Most were (and are) indeed some shade of salmon or coral. A color that is hard to put your finger on. But I wouldn't call it red.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

This was started before Carl replied to Tom above.. and I read it. So it is in response before that -

I've spoken with Tom a number of times on the phone because he also makes me laugh and he has a lot of info and experience with redfoot torts.. which is always good to compare notes. Based on a few threads recently I asked Tom about the colors "on the phone" for information.

I'm just trying to gather info.

I've asked Carl ( thru email only ) for info for almost 5 years and he almost always responded right away with answers and important related info. We've exchanged pics which I've always considered for additional info. My pics to him were to demonstrate what my group was capable of.. it certainly wasn't anything I had done. If anything it was to show him what his help had resulted in!

I don't live in FL. although I know a few that do that have experience caring for and breeding various tortoises.. so I must rely on 2nd hand info. from time to time.

Personally it doesn't matter to me who has what experience in what. Any personal experience I have I'm willing to share if it can help someone else.. and as long as I believe what I've been told comes from a reliable source I share that info also along with their name. Of course not everyone wants their name that public so I simply say "I have info from who I consider a reliable source.. whether it's via email or phone conversation.." etc.

The other day I related to a phone conversation in this thread.. and it resulted in the reply from Carl and then Tom replied to Carls'.. earlier in this thread. It made me feel uncomfortable in that it may have created misunderstandings at best.. and all I was trying to do was gain or share info. I really don't care WHO'S right.. I just want to know what's right. And if I caused any bad-blood now or ever.. I apologize.

Terry K

 

[allegraf]

Amen, Tom and Carl. Orange=tangerine=coral=clementine=not red...still cherryheads. They either are or they aren't!