Where is Dots from??

[t_mclellan]

OK, allegraf!
You've don it now! "Clementine"?! That just wont do! What is a "Clementine" anyway? Just another diminutive citrus that wants to grow up & be an Orange!
Couldn't you have said "Loquat"?
Apologies, I just had to do that!

Anyhow!
I blame this whole "CHERRY BOMB" thingy on Scott or Rob for their quick Cherry Head comment when the box's started opening! Also I give equal blame to Jeanie for her putting "Paraguayan Dwarf Cherry Head Redfoots" on Pet Farm's price list! If memory serves, It was the fastest reprint in the history of Pet Farm, 4.2 seconds I think! The whole time Bernie's (PF's owner) eye's had huge $$ signs in them!
That was the start of this BREW HA HA!
There you have it! Any and all that have made any incorrect statements pertaining to these animals are here by ABSOLVED of all gilt! They were duped by a bunch of wack jobs in a warehouse in west Miami!

PS. just for fun try putting the other colors in the name, Salmon Head? Clementine Head?
Coral Orange Head?
Those names just don't make me see $$ signs


Outa my way! & close that CURTAIN!

 

[cdmay]

Anyhow!
I blame this whole "CHERRY BOMB" thingy on Scott or Rob for their quick Cherry Head comment when the box's started opening! Also I give equal blame to Jeanie for her putting "Paraguayan Dwarf Cherry Head Redfoots" on Pet Farm's price list!

Brilliant Tom. I have been screaming the same thing for years but it has been a hard battle. It wasn't long before some dealers were advertising "True Paraguayan Dwarf Cherry Head Redfoots" which was way better than all those 'false' ones. I think Rob was even calling them 'Leopard Redfoots' for a while...thank goodness that didn't stick. If it did everybody would be fighting over what a leopard redfoot was!

As for Allegra...Clementine?? If you're going to name them after an orange why not call them 'Minnehahas'? That way you could get the subtle dwarf thing in too.

I do have to say though that my first impression at seeing all of those weird looking red foots, besides the mottled shell a lot of them had, was that so many had bright tangerine colored heads.
The really bright red heads stood out for sure, but I wish I had bought (and kept) some of those beautiful animals with the solid orange peel colors.

 

[t_mclellan]

You mean "Salmon" don't you Carl?
I wish I had some today too!
I think I am steeling that "Minnehaha" name!
If or when I ever produce some of these "Cool-aide" stirring Brazilians, I'm calling mine,
"Minnehaha's"!

 

[allegraf]

Laugh all you want, I thought my clementine reference was appropriate since it is orange in color. What about peach, pumpkin or nectarine??? Gotta love it!

 

[t_mclellan]

This is making me hungry!

 

[allegraf]

Instead of cherryheads we should opt for a new separate designation of redfoot only available from Florida known as the "Minnehaha Head Redfoot Torts"!

 

[cdmay]

Instead of cherryheads we should opt for a new separate designation of redfoot only available from Florida known as the "Minnehaha Head Redfoot Torts"!

Just so you know, the Minnehaha oranges come from the Lake Minnehaha area in central Florida. I'm not making this up but it is just south of Lake Minneola near Clermont. Wouldn't you know it but these lakes are right near Cherry Lake.
Lake Minneola, Minnehaha and Cherry. Sounds like a clutch of hatchlings.

 

[t_mclellan]

So what are ya sayin Carl?
I have to MOVE?

 

[allegraf]

Those are going to be the names of my next three hatchlings!

 

[cordell]

Well today we drove the 1 1/2 hours back to the reptile shop that we bought Dots from. Dots parents are as follows, Male is Cherry Head, and Female is from Guinea or however its spelled, lol. He said he has Red Foot and Yellow Foot Females, so its either one. I would guess Dots is from a Red Foot Female as he is too Redish Orange to be a Yellow. Anyway, what would a Cherry Yellow mix be called? lol

thanks
cordell

 

[Bryan]

Thanks!

I was following everything until the F2 F3 and what not. I will accept Northern Red Foot, lol. With him being a northern does anything change as far as husbandry? Or they all follow the same model for the most part? I wouldnt have minded a cherry head myself but when my wife and I found this reptile shop we watched Dots eating and we both had to get him! It just cracks me up how food seems to be this little guys only mission in life. Food, food, and more food! lol

cordell[/i]

I agree with Tom of course. The lineage of "F's" really means how much mix there is in the blood-lines. Most keepers [ again ] would be suprised or shocked to find out how many "mutts-were-in-the-mix" with their redfoots -- and that does include the Brazilians'.

Same care.. warm.. humid.. dim/limited lighting.. sight barriers and don't over-feed especially. It's too easy to overfeed because of the way they enjoy it. The first year their purpose is to eat to stay alive.. hide to keep from being eaten.. and to be left alone - which is probly why he usually runs off if there is nothing left to eat.. looking for a place to hide/escape...

Terry K

BTW.. you may want to take a look at the redfootcare link in my signature.

What? The amount of generations removed from the wild has absolutely nothing to do with hybridization unless someone decides to hybridize their animals, does it by mistake and sells them unknowingly, or does it by design and tries to pull a fast one on people that don't know any better. This is how misinformation is spread, if you know nothing about a subject take the high road and leave it to someone that does so that people can get a proper answer. Before you know it when someone talks about how their Brazilian Redfoot is an F3 someone will say that they're sorry that their tortoise died in a tornado. THIS is why if you want pure animals you buy them from someone that knows their breeds or locales inside and out, people like Carl, Allegra, and Doug Beard (elegans).

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Bryan did you read what Tom said.. which I was agreeing with?

The lineage of "F's" really means how much mix there is in the blood-lines. - meant how many were directly related to the original pair.. surely you know that.

And this statement had nothing to do with the "F" discussion actually - Most keepers [ again ] would be suprised or shocked to find out how many "mutts-were-in-the-mix" with their redfoots -- and that does include the Brazilians'. - By this I meant how over the years with all of the imports from various regions there are "hybrids" out there in the pet trade that are offered.. and the unscrupulous "big name" dealers and 'back-yard' breeders are selling [ what they call ] 'cherryheads' that are actually those colorful Northerns!

I'm agreeing with you Bryan.. is that O.K.?

BTW Bryan.. who did you get your hatchlings from? I think I asked you that once before.

Terry K

 

[Bryan]

Bryan did you read what Tom said.. which I was agreeing with?

The lineage of "F's" really means how much mix there is in the blood-lines. - meant how many were directly related to the original pair.. surely you know that.

And this statement had nothing to do with the "F" discussion actually - Most keepers [ again ] would be suprised or shocked to find out how many "mutts-were-in-the-mix" with their redfoots -- and that does include the Brazilians'. - By this I meant how over the years with all of the imports from various regions there are "hybrids" out there in the pet trade that are offered.. and the unscrupulous "big name" dealers and 'back-yard' breeders are selling [ what they call ] 'cherryheads' that are actually those colorful Northerns!

I'm agreeing with you Bryan.. is that O.K.?

BTW Bryan.. who did you get your hatchlings from? I think I asked you that once before.

Terry K

Terry the "original pair" has nothing to do with how many are related to the original pair unless you are line breeding them. You can take an F1 from one "original pair" and cross them with an F1 from another pair and the offspring is F2 and they are not inbred. Again it seems to me like you are unclear as to how this works. I also take issue with the fact that you are implying that crosses are the majority of the market. I don't know who you buy from or what sellers you know other than yourself but the people that I've bought from have F0 animals and kept them separately from any other varieties of Redfoots they may have. I find it disturbing that you throw out these generalizations when there are a number of exceptional breeders that take the time to keep their bloodlines pure.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Bryan did you read what Tom said.. which I was agreeing with?

The lineage of "F's" really means how much mix there is in the blood-lines. - meant how many were directly related to the original pair.. surely you know that.

And this statement had nothing to do with the "F" discussion actually - Most keepers [ again ] would be suprised or shocked to find out how many "mutts-were-in-the-mix" with their redfoots -- and that does include the Brazilians'. - By this I meant how over the years with all of the imports from various regions there are "hybrids" out there in the pet trade that are offered.. and the unscrupulous "big name" dealers and 'back-yard' breeders are selling [ what they call ] 'cherryheads' that are actually those colorful Northerns!

I'm agreeing with you Bryan.. is that O.K.?

BTW Bryan.. who did you get your hatchlings from? I think I asked you that once before.

Terry K

Terry the "original pair" has nothing to do with how many are related to the original pair unless you are line breeding them. You can take an F1 from one "original pair" and cross them with an F1 from another pair and the offspring is F2 and they are not inbred. Again it seems to me like you are unclear as to how this works. I also take issue with the fact that you are implying that crosses are the majority of the market. I don't know who you buy from or what sellers you know other than yourself but the people that I've bought from have F0 animals and kept them separately from any other varieties of Redfoots they may have. I find it disturbing that you throw out these generalizations when there are a number of exceptional breeders that take the time to keep their bloodlines pure.

Bryan you are reading into anything I say that you want to.. which is your choice.

You have to know that there are far fewer "honest" breeders than there are the dishonest.

Everyone that I have heard 'define' the "F" sequence defines it differently. The way you defined it is different examples and still basically the same as Tom or Douglas or Bill Z or Carl, etc. And you know as well as I do that the greater majority of tortoise keepers today don't really care anyway.

As far as % of 'regional' crosses.. you don't know anymore than I do but you do know there are no doubt a great % if for no other reason than the number of years they have been imported, etc. Isn't that what this thread is all about??? Why didn't the breeder tell her in the first place? She was lead to believe she had a "cherryhead".

So why be disturbed? I'm sure not...

Terry K

---

Here's how I define the "F" sequence:

In 1999.. before the laws changed.. I made a trade with someone in South Carolina for a breeding group of Spotted turtles. In 2000 I hatched a number of them. The very first one I hatched and kept was a female and in 2006 [ as I recall ] she laid eggs and they hatched and I had F2 spotted turtles. How simple is that?

Terry K

 

[Bryan]

Terry, were their parents 1 generation removed from the wild?

 

[t_mclellan]

Try looking at it like this.

Legend:
P1 & P2 = Adult stock, wild, captive or un-known. For our use P1 = male & P2 = female.
WC = Wild Caught.
CB = Captive Born, F1, F2 ect. makes no difference.
U = Un-known origin.
F1 = 1st generation in a specific breeding.
F2 = 2nd generation in a specific breeding.

So,

WCP1 + WCP2 = F1
WCP1 + CBP2 = F1
CBP1 + WCP2 = F1
UP1 + UP2 = F1
UP1 + WCP2 = F1
UP1 + CB1 = F1
WCP1 + F1P2 = F1

CBP1 + CBP2 = F2
F1P1 + F1P2 = F2
F1P1 + F2P2 = F2

Do you see the pattern?
Now lets go way out on a limb here.
What would this be?
F3P1 + F1P2= ?
Think!

If this is YOUR first in specific breeding, Then it would be F1.
BUT if the breeding is a progression of an existing line, Then it would be an F2.
It dose get confusing!

How about,
F28P1 + F4P2?
Same again sorta,
Ether F1 or F5 depending on the above statement.
The F number can be no greater than the lowest preceding F+1.

Does this make sense?

I hope this helps.

PS.
This IS the only way I can explain it without getting overly complicated.
& (for you franticly clicking through search engines) I know there is a LOT more to it!

I know I didn't mention "Hybrids' " ether.