Off topic: Experts: Humid vs. Dry

[leigti]

Maybe instead of philosophical differences I should've said theoretical differences.

 

[leigti]

She picks and chooses part of what people say and then twists the rest.

Every post I've ever read of Tom's follows the lines of humidity + proper temps, day and night is required. Usually by using a CHE on a thermostat.

Not once has he said "wet and cold is good".

I did not think he ever said that either. But if Assct believes that he did then that would explain why she fights so much against him. And why, from an outsiders view, they don't see eye to eye on much of anything.

 

[ascott]

In a post a little bit ago there was a line that you wrote in there about Tom saying that it is okay to keep Russian tortoises in a cool and wet environment. I am a computer idiot and I do not know how to culcopy and paste or else I would have copied your exact statement. I am sorry I am a computer idiot. That is why said along the lines of because I could not remember your exact wording and I did not want to misquote you. I have read this forum for a few years now, at least three that is, and I just don't remember him saying that Russians should be kept cool and wet. At least not in a close chamber environment, maybe I am wrong because I have never made a true close chamber but I thought the idea of a close chamber is warm and wet. And close chambers are not needed for adult Russians, maybe just for babies. And even then it is not as critical with Russians. But either way cold and wet is not good for any toward us. I don't agree with everything Tom says, but on this issue I have not read any proof of what you're saying.

I too am not great at the computer tango....only work what I need to limp along....once in a while I get lucky and get it right....lol....you see, my point is this---I do not always agree with all that every person offers up here as a way to do things --even Tom. However, I state my point/belief/concern and that is it....however, others appear to believe that unless I am clone of one way then gather the lynching group...well, go right ahead is my motto. You see, I have faith that most people in most situations have their own mind and their own ability to determine sense from nonsense....and that I have no control over....I also have faith that those that do not have that skill, join the lynching mob--as it is easier to run in a mob than to stand alone on ones own belief....you and I have not had harsh words before---we may have not aligned our entire beliefs directly in line, but I did not think that was a requirement in order for each to have their own validity....

 

[Tom]

Well, you will need to research a bit more (no sarcasm inserted here)....Tom has clearly stated that this species (russians as well as CDTs) can and should be house in the same environment as sulcata/leopards (wet, closed chamber

No. This is entirely untrue. My two care sheets have been up for a long time and read by thousands of people. They do NOT say russians and sulcatas should be housed the same way in "wet" closed chambers. I don't say sulcatas should be housed in "wet closed chambers" either. My chambers are dry with a mostly dry layer of substrate on top.

Direct copy/pasted quote from the second paragraph of my russian care sheet:
"Damp substrate will help to maintain moderate humidity and allow them to dig in and create their own little microclimate. I also like to offer a humid hide box for them to sleep in and retreat to. This will really help to maintain hydration and good shell growth in an open topped table. For babies I like to use large tubs or tanks and partially cover the top to maintain 50-70% humidity. I also offer a humid hide and my substrate of choice for babies is about 3-4" of damp coco coir. I hand pack it down to reduce the messiness. I don't worry about what the humidity level is for adults, AS LONG AS they have a damp substrate that they can dig into and a humid hide to retreat to."

Does't say anything about a wet closed chamber there. The above is how I recommend housing russians. I have also linked people to my russian care sheet for CDT hatchlings because the same techniques work very well for them too. How do I know this? Because I've done it dozens of times. How do you know what you are saying is correct? Is it because you've done it many times too? Oh wait. No. You never done it at all. You've never raised a single russian or CDT hatchling. Not wet. Not dry. Not cold, Not warm. How do you know a Russian or CDT on damp substrate will get sick if the temperature drops below 80? Is it because you've done it a bunch and your multitude of tortoises got sick? No its not because you've never done it. You know how I know they won't get sick? Because I've been doing it this way for several years now with dozens of tortoise and the result is always the same. Healthy, thriving tortoises. I do it day in and day out. I live what I speak of, while you've never even done it. Not once. Lots of people keep russians on damp substrates. They have for decades, this is nothing new, and nothing I have suddenly invented. No one keeps russians at 80 degrees at night and for you to suggest that is ridiculous. You know how I know they won't get sick in the high 60s or low 70s on damp substrate? Because that's how mine live every day, and all of them have been thriving for years. Please tell everyone how many russian and CDT hatchlings you have raised this way with negative results. Zero. Not one. You think it doesn't rain where russians come from and then get cold at night? What about all the people housing them in Florida and Louisiana? Think it doesn't rain or get cold there? It was 41 degrees and raining in Louisiana when I was there 3 weeks ago. Did everyone's outdoor russians get sick and die?

This is the sort of baseless, false information that is the subject of this thread. I won't stand by and allow you to spread false information that you have based on nothing, and malign proven, solid, tried and true techniques that lead to healthy, thriving tortoises.

 

[Zeko]

I did not think he ever said that either. But if Assct believes that he did then that would explain why she fights so much against him. And why, from an outsiders view, they don't see eye to eye on much of anything.

As I've said many times: she is a forum troll.

I have gone through her profile and have read many of her posts. More often than not, it's not helpful, informative or correct.

I'm not sure if she is doing such because she dislikes Tom, because she is trying to harm other people's tortoises or she simply enjoys conflict.

Regardless, it's useless trying to change these types of people. Any other forum, she would be restricted to post in only certain parts of the forum, or at the very least given a strong warning.

While i'd love to think we are all here for the betterment of the tortoises, unfortunately it appears to not be the case.

And this is the reason we are in here trying to change the admin's policy on following up such people's posts with corrections, experience level and knowledge of such persons. I would hate to imagine how many people have read her posts and have followed her guidance. God help those people and their beloved pets.

 

[Tom]

In a post a little bit ago there was a line that you wrote in there about Tom saying that it is okay to keep Russian tortoises in a cool and wet environment. I am a computer idiot and I do not know how to culcopy and paste or else I would have copied your exact statement. I am sorry I am a computer idiot. That is why said along the lines of because I could not remember your exact wording and I did not want to misquote you. I have read this forum for a few years now, at least three that is, and I just don't remember him saying that Russians should be kept cool and wet. At least not in a close chamber environment, maybe I am wrong because I have never made a true close chamber but I thought the idea of a close chamber is warm and wet. And close chambers are not needed for adult Russians, maybe just for babies. And even then it is not as critical with Russians. But either way cold and wet is not good for any toward us. I don't agree with everything Tom says, but on this issue I have not read any proof of what you're saying.

leigti, I consider you a successful russian keeper. Do you, or did you, use a damp substrate in your indoor russian enclosures? What are/were your night temperatures? Did your tortoises get sick?

 

[leigti]

leigti, I consider you a successful russian keeper. Do you, or did you, use a damp substrate in your indoor russian enclosures? What are/were your night temperatures? Did your tortoises get sick?

My Russian is an adult that I got from a pet store. I always had the substrate a little damp but not soggy. Nighttime temperatures in doors were just house temperature so 60° or above. I've never provided heat at night. Outdoors I keep my Russian out at night if it is above 55°. Other than parasites which she came with, my russian has not been sick at all. No respiratory illnesses.

 

[ascott]

As I've said many times: she is a forum troll.

I have gone through her profile and have read many of her posts. More often than not, it's not helpful, informative or correct.

I'm not sure if she is doing such because she dislikes Tom, because she is trying to harm other people's tortoises or she simply enjoys conflict.

Regardless, it's useless trying to change these types of people. Any other forum, she would be restricted to post in only certain parts of the forum, or at the very least given a strong warning.

While i'd love to think we are all here for the betterment of the tortoises, unfortunately it appears to not be the case.

And this is the reason we are in here trying to change the admin's policy on following up such people's posts with corrections, experience level and knowledge of such persons. I would hate to imagine how many people have read her posts and have followed her guidance. God help those people and their beloved pets.

I too have previewed your prior activity...I am really trying to find your outstanding offerings....sincerely trying and still searching...

In regards to your repeated comment and reference to Tom...I find it interesting and amusing you are. I mean, I am assuming you are an adult, perhaps I am incorrect...but for the life of me I can not understand why feel the need to continually attach yourself to Tom...almost as though you require that relationship to have some perverse worth to the handful of your other klan..???

I am now, amused by you. At first, I was a bit bewildered, then found you annoying-somewhat like one of those little yippy dogs, you know....the kind that comes up from behind you--cowardly and nips at ones ankles....now, I simply feel kinda sorry for you...I mean--to attempt so badly to attach yourself to another, well, you go right ahead....use the elementary black top phrases and chants as often as you like, as often as you need to, what appears, so you feel some sense of superiority ....I am good. You see....simply because you say something, does not make is so.....carry on little troll---that is the word you seem to identify and limit yourself to....toodles.

 

[Tom]

I too have previewed your prior activity...I am really trying to find your outstanding offerings....sincerely trying and still searching...

In regards to your repeated comment and reference to Tom...I find it interesting and amusing you are. I mean, I am assuming you are an adult, perhaps I am incorrect...but for the life of me I can not understand why feel the need to continually attach yourself to Tom...almost as though you require that relationship to have some perverse worth to the handful of your other klan..???

I am now, amused by you. At first, I was a bit bewildered, then found you annoying-somewhat like one of those little yippy dogs, you know....the kind that comes up from behind you--cowardly and nips at ones ankles....now, I simply feel kinda sorry for you...I mean--to attempt so badly to attach yourself to another, well, you go right ahead....use the elementary black top phrases and chants as often as you like, as often as you need to, what appears, so you feel some sense of superiority ....I am good. You see....simply because you say something, does not make is so.....carry on little troll---that is the word you seem to identify and limit yourself to....toodles.

This is the type of rude, belittling post that does damage to this forum. This is nothing more than an attempt to insult and attack a persons character. This entire post is not abut the subject at hand and is not relevant to the discuss of grossly unqualified people giving specific advice and warnings about species they have no knowledge of of experience with.

Bad form. Boo.

 

[Tom]

My Russian is an adult that I got from a pet store. I always had the substrate a little damp but not soggy. Nighttime temperatures in doors were just house temperature so 60° or above. I've never provided heat at night. Outdoors I keep my Russian out at night if it is above 55°. Other than parasites which she came with, my russian has not been sick at all. No respiratory illnesses.

Thank you for sharing your first hand experience, but surely you must be a lucky anomaly because according to Ascott a russian on damp substrate whose temperature drops below 80 will get sick and die. I have 20 currently that are also a lucky anomaly. Mine are on damp substrate and their temp drop well below 80 every night, yet somehow they manage to carry on living.

Anyone else out there getting lucky with a russian on damp substrate with night temps below 80 and somehow miraculously surviving?

P.S. This is not an attack on anyone. I am simply trying to refute a claim that I know to be erroneous because of extensive, first hand personal experience.

 

[leigti]

I think some confusion may be caused when discussing adults versus babies. I would not keep a baby Russian on damp substrate below 80. But my Russian is an adult and is able to warm up every day. So I think especially for a new tortoise keeper, if it is not very clear the differences between adult and hatchling care then it can get very confusing very quickly. And I think that's why there is confusion as to what is said at times.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

I too have previewed your prior activity...I am really trying to find your outstanding offerings....sincerely trying and still searching...

In regards to your repeated comment and reference to Tom...I find it interesting and amusing you are. I mean, I am assuming you are an adult, perhaps I am incorrect...but for the life of me I can not understand why feel the need to continually attach yourself to Tom...almost as though you require that relationship to have some perverse worth to the handful of your other klan..???

I am now, amused by you. At first, I was a bit bewildered, then found you annoying-somewhat like one of those little yippy dogs, you know....the kind that comes up from behind you--cowardly and nips at ones ankles....now, I simply feel kinda sorry for you...I mean--to attempt so badly to attach yourself to another, well, you go right ahead....use the elementary black top phrases and chants as often as you like, as often as you need to, what appears, so you feel some sense of superiority ....I am good. You see....simply because you say something, does not make is so.....carry on little troll---that is the word you seem to identify and limit yourself to....toodles.

What's the goal with these continued, insulting posts? Please limit the response to 2-3 sentences. Really, I'm curious.

 

[mike taylor]

I want a list of experts please .

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Finally it's beginning to feel like a family here.
I thank each and every one of you for your help.
It's not realistic that so many passionate people can always get along.

 

[Tom]

I want a list of experts please .

I wish I could give you that Mike. I've heard some members refer to other members as experts, but I don't know anyone here who considers them self and "expert".

What purpose would such a list serve? Who would define what it takes to be defined as an expert? Why should anyone care about who is an expert or not?

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

I want a list of experts please .

Experts at what?
Nudge, nudge, wink, wink…

 

[Tom]

Good morning. My practice, as you say, with you has been to try to...work...through...your CRYPTIC syntax and see if you have any information on offer. If so, I attempt to determine voracity, based on either evidence or reference, neither of which you provide. This is not a personal attack, this is a technical dismissal. Biology is not like open mike poetry night, where everybody's opinions are equally valid. You wish to engage in discussion or critique? Great! Then come to play. That means with evidence, reference, or at least logical reasoning (that's the hierarchy in descending order, by the way). Absent that, you're only providing personal musings at best, which are irrelevant, or bad advice, which is dangerous.

I have some evidence I'd like to submit to the discussion: I have 20 russian tortoises aged 1.5 -3 years old, 15 of which have been in my care within a month of their hatch dates, while the five three year olds were approximately 8 months old when I got them. They have all been housed on damp substrate in partially covered, open topped enclosures continuously since the first day I got them. Every night their over night low temperature drops well below 80 degrees and all are alive and well, thriving and growing quite nicely.

More evidence: I've raised hundreds of sulcatas, 7 dozen leopards, and 10 Burmese stars in constant high humidity closed chambers and I'm happy to report that every single one is also alive and well, thriving and growing nicely.

While I realize this is just a small subset of evidence, at least is is something, right?

 

[Levi the Leopard]

Sorry Josh... I think this thread has shut down all hopes of selling your newest TFO t-shirt.

"EXPERT MEMBER"

Lol

 

[Tom]

I want a list of experts please .

Our friend Cowboy Ken is an expert at self-promotion. You should see his thread! Ken, can you link it for us?

Sadly this is a short and lonely list, as no one can match Ken's unique and hard earned title in this category.

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Our friend Cowboy Ken is an expert at self-promotion. You should see his thread! Ken, can you link it for us?

Sadly this is a short and lonely list, as no one can match Ken's unique and hard earned title in this category.

It is completely a true statement that there is no coincidence that the last letters of awesome are “me"! Just clear reality.