Thermostat & Heating panel confusion

[The_Four_Toed_Edward]

Warning: This thread is really graphic. But it shows the worst case scenario when two diffrent sized sulcatas are housed together. If things get physical, the bigger one can do real serious damage on the smaller one.

I personally wouldn't take the risk just because they haven't been physical yet. Some might even say it is just a matter of time.

tortoise rammed...Size does matter ***Graphic Images***

Looked at the schedule this afternoon and saw a turtle on the books and thought that I had something to look forward to.....boy, was I right. (I was given permission, by the owner, to post pics and tell his story so the members of TFO could learn from his mistake....thanks to him). Turned...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I’ve briefly skimmed this thread, regardless of where we all stand on deliverance of the message, I do want to second the advice to separate them, I, like others, like to pass this stuff on to help keepers make an informed decision, hopefully it encourages keepers to go do their own digging with research.

Tortoise of any species shouldn’t be housed in pairs under any circumstances, they’re incredibly territorial, behaviours that look cute to us really aren’t, following one another and sleeping huddled up is all bullying the the tortoise world, you’ll eventually see more extreme signs of aggression. Anyone who tells you pairs are fine, have no idea what they’re talking about, breeders unfortunately sell pairs too often.
Small groups are ok when there’s lots of land and the correct male to female ratio, this isn’t because they necessarily prefer the company, but because it doesn’t allow dominant behaviour to escalate into further aggression, a tortoise may well start following one tortoise, see another and start following them instead, that’s just one example. By nature tortoises are incredibly solitary animals, they only seek out to mate, then live primarily on their own. Have some species been documented hanging out in groups seemingly unbothered? Absolutely, but again this doesn’t mean they’re seeking out the company, rather than they are seeking out the environment in a particular hang out spot. Again this is group dynamics, not a pair. Pairs are completely unnatural, one will always be trying to compete for dominance, even if not to the naked eye, babies often stunt one another’s growth, or cause failure to thrive, this is often picked up too late, when you think everything is going fine, suddenly it isn’t. My point is, it’s not worth the risk to either tortoise, even if you don’t see out right aggression, this is an incredibly stressful housing situation, the stress is sometimes not easy to pick up on.

Hopefully you might consider separating them, don’t be surprised if this does cause them to go off their food, it’s a normal thing during a transition period but it often puts people off. It isn’t because they miss one another, tortoises simply hate any kind of change, they struggle to make sense of where their rival has gone, often causing them to pace trying to seek one another out. They will eventually settle and it’d be in the best interest of their long term health

 

[MrSunshine]

I don’t have much experience with tortoises, but I do with concrete/cement. When I worked in a warehouse, we always, always made sure to store batteries off the paved ground, because the concrete would cause the batteries to get colder faster, thus eating away at the battery’s integrity. So, I’m not sure in what situations concrete would help something stay warm.

I was never saying, suggesting or otherwise that I intended to use cement for anything. He had brought it up, then started in with his examples & insisting that this, that & the other thing are "bs"...

First, hello and welcome. Very glad you found us. We all want to help make things better for you and your tortoises. To do that we have to point out what is wrong. If we don't, you won't know what to fix or how to fix it. I'll list my comments to keep my thoughts more organized. I'll reiterate some of what has already been said, but phrase it in my own words.
1. Sand is an impaction risk and skin and eye irritant. I see that you've already learned this and are getting rid of it, so I will move on.
2. Dog houses don't work for tortoises. The design is all wrong in many ways. As you are seeing, 1 inch insulation isn't enough. The open door with flaps is not enough. The window is just letting heat out. Even in a well made insulated box, like the ones that @COmtnLady linked for you, you need more than one heat source if using radiant heat panels and heat mats on the floor. You need both. I can see that you put a lot of time and thought into it, but as you are seeing, it doesn't work. I went through a similar process many years ago and I had to learn the hard way what works and what doesn't. You don't have to learn the hard way.
3. A well insulated floor is essential to retaining heat.
4. Don't try to set the temperature of the mat with a rheostat or thermostat. Use a Kane heat mat, 18x28 inches, and plug it into the thermostat along with the RHP. If the ambient temp is below your set point, you want the mat "On". They all have internal thermostats to keep them from getting too hot. Regulating the surface temps makes it too cool to do its job. We are using that mat to warm the core of the tortoise from the bottom up. The tortoise needs to be able to get its core temp into the mid 90s to digest its food and keep its gut flora and fauna healthy. If you put a pan of water on a 212 degree hot plate, it will take a long time for the water to warm up, and it will never boil due to evaporative cooling. Now imagine that hot plate was 600 degrees. The water will warm up much quicker and eventually boil in spite of the evaporative cooling losses at the surface.
5. The heat mat alone is not enough. You also need a radiant heat panel over head. The combination of the two work well together, and the tortoise needs an area inside the warm box to get off of the heat source. This is why a 4x4 box is the minimum recommended. I like RHPs around 80 watts. Tractor Supply sells one for chickens that is adjustable to either 50 or 200 watts. Your are doesn't get that cold, so 50 watts is probably good most of the time, and 200 watts could be used when night temps are in the low 40s or lower. The thermostat will keep it from over heating.
6. If you read the thread called "Double Door Night Box" linked in post number 5 above, you'll see an alternative way to heat that is simpler and much cheaper, and one heater can work for both tortoises.
7. I generally move them outside at around 8-10 inches, and I do this in late spring so that they have time to acclimate. Prior to that, they should be indoors in a large humid closed chamber.
8. Never pairs. The size difference in your two is the most compelling evidence of the terrible chronic stress they have been under. Separate them ASAP.
9. It looks like the area where you are putting them outside is in the shade. Is there sun during the day?
10. In summer in your area, when temps are over 100 every day, they need to be able to get underground in a burrow. You can encourage this by starting a burrow for them in the area where YOU want it. Then in fall, block the burrow entrance with a sheet of plywood or something, and make them start using the night box again in fall and winter.
11. The see-through little black fencing is no good. Sulcatas will sometimes rub themselves bloody on barriers that they can see through like the one you are using or chain link fencing. Use opaque barriers to pen them. You can make three 8 foot long by 16" tall strips from a single sheet of plywood. Wooded stakes in the ground on 8 foot centers will give you something to screw the ends of the plywood into. Or, I use slump stone blocks to make my walls. As they get bigger and stronger, more sturdy barriers will become necessary.
12. The concrete pavers in the enclosure might become a problem. It is too abrasive. Over time it can rub their feet raw and you will come home to little bloody foot prints every where. You don't have a lot of it, and your tortoises are small, so this is not an immediate problem to deal with. I just wanted you to be aware for future reference.
13. I deal humidity in the box is around 80 percent. It's very difficult to achieve this in dry climates like ours. I add as many water tubs as I can fit, and call it good.
14. 80 degrees inside the box is good when the weather is warm and sunny. When its cold and overcast and daytime highs are staying under 70, I bump the boxes up to around 86.
15. No need for a fan in a smaller box like this. I do like them in large 4x8 foot boxes, but they are still optional, not essential.

Most of the answers you seek are in the threads that have been linked, I hope all of this helps, and your questions are welcome.

Thank you so much for all of the great information, advice, & TACT! We're taking notes & action on everything that everyone is sharing with us!
We'll keep reading, asking questions & making the appropriate adjustments, fixes & outright changes.
We truly appreciate ALL of the responses & information we're receiving from EVERYONE. (Regardless of the delivery. I know the intentions from anyone who takes the time to comment & advise is coming from the right place.)
Ma

I’ve briefly skimmed this thread, regardless of where we all stand on deliverance of the message, I do want to second the advice to separate them, I, like others, like to pass this stuff on to help keepers make an informed decision, hopefully it encourages keepers to go do their own digging with research.

Tortoise of any species shouldn’t be housed in pairs under any circumstances, they’re incredibly territorial, behaviours that look cute to us really aren’t, following one another and sleeping huddled up is all bullying the the tortoise world, you’ll eventually see more extreme signs of aggression. Anyone who tells you pairs are fine, have no idea what they’re talking about, breeders unfortunately sell pairs too often.
Small groups are ok when there’s lots of land and the correct male to female ratio, this isn’t because they necessarily prefer the company, but because it doesn’t allow dominant behaviour to escalate into further aggression, a tortoise may well start following one tortoise, see another and start following them instead, that’s just one example. By nature tortoises are incredibly solitary animals, they only seek out to mate, then live primarily on their own. Have some species been documented hanging out in groups seemingly unbothered? Absolutely, but again this doesn’t mean they’re seeking out the company, rather than they are seeking out the environment in a particular hang out spot. Again this is group dynamics, not a pair. Pairs are completely unnatural, one will always be trying to compete for dominance, even if not to the naked eye, babies often stunt one another’s growth, or cause failure to thrive, this is often picked up too late, when you think everything is going fine, suddenly it isn’t. My point is, it’s not worth the risk to either tortoise, even if you don’t see out right aggression, this is an incredibly stressful housing situation, the stress is sometimes not easy to pick up on.

Hopefully you might consider separating them, don’t be surprised if this does cause them to go off their food, it’s a normal thing during a transition period but it often puts people off. It isn’t because they miss one another, tortoises simply hate any kind of change, they struggle to make sense of where their rival has gone, often causing them to pace trying to seek one another out. They will eventually settle and it’d be in the best interest of their long term health

Thank you for your insights & invaluable information. YES, we definitely understand that they need to be separated. (We never debated that. My apologies to anyone I gave that impression to.) It makes us sad to think that they're not the "Lil Buddies" we'd thought & hoped they were. But their health & well being definitely come 1st.
Thank you again. It's appreciated more than you know.
Make it a GREAT day!

 

[Littleredfootbigredheart]

I was never saying, suggesting or otherwise that I intended to use cement for anything. He had brought it up, then started in with his examples & insisting that this, that & the other thing are "bs"...

Thank you so much for all of the great information, advice, & TACT! We're taking notes & action on everything that everyone is sharing with us!
We'll keep reading, asking questions & making the appropriate adjustments, fixes & outright changes.
We truly appreciate ALL of the responses & information we're receiving from EVERYONE. (Regardless of the delivery. I know the intentions from anyone who takes the time to comment & advise is coming from the right place.)
Ma

Thank you for your insights & invaluable information. YES, we definitely understand that they need to be separated. (We never debated that. My apologies to anyone I gave that impression to.) It makes us sad to think that they're not the "Lil Buddies" we'd thought & hoped they were. But their health & well being definitely come 1st.
Thank you again. It's appreciated more than you know.
Make it a GREAT day!

No problem at all! I’m so glad to hear you intend on separating, and I really hope you stick around on the forumunfortunately tones don’t always read very well in text, I can understand why you may have taken some comments a certain way, Dana is a very passionate individual and I know he certainly wouldn’t have wanted to cause offence, but I can see how they read a bit harshly, if it was a face to face conversation it would’ve been a completely different interaction I’ll bethe’s seen some pretty unfortunate circumstances firsthand from cohabiting, and sadly a lot of new members joining with a pair are very stubborn in separating them, he was probably preemptively worried this was a similar situation, but I’m glad this has all worked outeveryone definitely has their own approach on the forum, but we’re all united by our love for these amazing animals, great to have you aboard!

 

[MrSunshine]

No problem at all! I’m so glad to hear you intend on separating, and I really hope you stick around on the forumunfortunately tones don’t always read very well in text, I can understand why you may have taken some comments a certain way, Dana is a very passionate individual and I know he certainly wouldn’t have wanted to cause offence, but I can see how they read a bit harshly, if it was a face to face conversation it would’ve been a completely different interaction I’ll bethe’s seen some pretty unfortunate circumstances firsthand from cohabiting, and sadly a lot of new members joining with a pair are very stubborn in separating them, he was probably preemptively worried this was a similar situation, but I’m glad this has all worked outeveryone definitely has their own approach on the forum, but we’re all united by our love for these amazing animals, great to have you aboard!

Thank you for your insights & sharing your opinions of him. I'm definitely not a fan of his at the moment, & he's only making it worse. Insults, snotty attitudes & a "know it all", cram it down your throat opening & follow up are hard to "digest".
I was "trying" to let it pass & understand the "intent" behind it, but he just keeps making it worse. ...Oh well.
It was very kind of you to speak up & try to help me understand him.

 

[jaizei]

@MrSunshine consider the discussion about "tone" concluded with your reply to Littleredfootbigredheart.

 

[jaizei]

That is not what Mr. Kane told me in a phone conversation. He told me he started embedding them after see the report of his mat that started on fire.

idk what to tell you other than it doesn't matter who said what, the reality is basic kane heat mats dont have an internal thermostat or safety feature. The mats with an internal thermostat have a connector that only plugs into a controller. And not into a normal outlet.

 

[Tom]

idk what to tell you other than it doesn't matter who said what, the reality is basic kane heat mats dont have an internal thermostat or safety feature. The mats with an internal thermostat have a connector that only plugs into a controller. And not into a normal outlet.

Yes they do. Are you saying the inventor of the product and owner of the company directly and intentionally lied to me about his products? I think not. Other similar products from other companies that imitate his may or may not have the embedded safeties, but Craig's do. Idk what to tell you. Why don't you call him and ask him yourself. I found him to be helpful and knowledgeable about his own products.

 

[jaizei]

Yes they do. Are you saying the inventor of the product and owner of the company directly and intentionally lied to me about his products? I think not. Other similar products from other companies that imitate his may or may not have the embedded safeties, but Craig's do. Idk what to tell you. Why don't you call him and ask him yourself. I found him to be helpful and knowledgeable about his own products.

Are you just repeating 'what you were told'? or have you actually tested out this safety feature? You just stated "yes they do", "Craig's do" but do you know this for a fact? No, you don't because you haven't. Its obvious since you keep going back to this tired 'appeal to authority'. It doesn't matter who you claim to have talked to and what they said, if this supposed safety doesn't exist in the heat mat it doesn't exist. You are the only person I have ever seen making this claim. Everywhere else, including in the literature directly from the company, it says what I said. If this safety feature existed in every mat, I would think that they'd advertise it or at least acknowledge it. Its seems likely that you misunderstood what someone told you and thought what they said about specific mats that have to be connected to their thermostat would apply to all mats.


But no one needs to take my word for it. This is very simple to test and since this forum is all about correcting misinformation, doing experiments and proving things, I strongly encourage everyone that has a basic kane heat mat to join in on this experiment. I know what the result will be, and I hope it will be an important lesson for everyone. Take a basic kane heat mat, place it in an area where the ambient temperature is 80* and plug it directly into an electrical outlet without a thermostat. The surface will reach around 115-120*, though it may vary slightly. Place an object on top of it, and the temperature between the two will increase. Believing that theres a safety when theres not is dangerous and can lead to carelessness. Besides, everyone should have a realistic understanding of how their heating equipment works.

 

[EppsDynasty]

Dana, you are 100% correct, keeping sulcata's together is absolutely not safe , are people gonna do it , absolutely, is it gonna work out, not in most cases..... as for size and genetics, there are wild "clades" of sulcatas that genetically vary greatly in size..... the US population is a mix of most all of them......

keep doing what your doing, i think it's beyond commendable .........

Thank You. We just live a life we feel is right. Some along the way get offended AND in no way is that my intention, I am NOT a professional communicator and screw things in conversations up all the time ....that damn heart of mine. @mark1 Thank You