Thermostat & Heating panel confusion

[MrSunshine]

We have 2) 2 ½ yr old Sulcata Tortoises. (Sherman & Turbo) We're located in Buckeye, Az. (Up to 120° in summer, & can occasionally get down to the low 30's in winter) They still live inside, but we're putting them out during the day, until early evening, around 5:00-5:30.
Attached are pictures of the enclosure I built for them. (It's still a work in progress.)
It's insulated on all 4 walls & the ceiling with 1" thick foam with radiant barrier on both sides of the insulation. The walls are now lined with Phillipine Mahogany, so they won't eat the insulation. (Not pictured)
The inside dimensions are 36" wide x 22" deep x 30" high at the highest point. It has a 12"x12" (10"x10" actual heating area) Vivarium 40 watt radiant heating panel installed aprox 18-20" above the floor, the temperature probe is aprox 4" directly below the heating panel & aprox 14" above the floor. I have an Inkbird ITC-312 thermostat. (Day / Night settings)
Based on what I've read here so far, I need to make a LOT of changes....
The space will not heat up anywhere remotely close to the desired ambient temperature of 80°. So far, (according to the app & an independent thermometer) the space only briefly gets up to 69°, then dips back down to the mid 60's. It's currently 50°- 55° outside at night, low 70's during the day.
So, please feel free to confirm, refute, & advise on the following...
* I probably need an 80 watt heating panel instead of the 40 watt?
* How far above them should the heating panel be placed? 6" - 8"? (Adjusting it as they grow)
* Locate the temperature probe as far away from the heat source(s) as possible & lower on the wall to assure a minimum radiant temperature?
* Use 3 thermometers to track basking temps, central area temps & farthest from heat source temps? ...Or just the fathest away one?
* A heating matt IS recommended? (Brand? Size? Wattage?)
* OK to have the heating matt & heating panel connected to the same thermostat?
* Or better to use a matt with a built in thermostat (set to 90°?) separate from the thermostat used for the heating panel?
* What about a small, low volume fan to circulate the air inside?
* The opening has a metal "gate" to keep them safe from preditors at night. Is it recommended or necessary to attach a solid panel to it for insulating purposes at night? Or should the plastic flaps "suffice"?
* Open water containers for humidity? Ideal humidity percentage? Maybe place them on a shelf up higher since there house has a "higher" ceiling? We currently have a 12" terracotta dish filled with water on the floor.
What about COOLING? It gets HOT here. Is a simple fan enough? A small evaporative cooler? A smaaaaall A/C unit? Or nothing needed?
* Keep them separate??? They're both from the same "batch". Not sure why, but Sherman is about 50% bigger than Turbo at aprox 9" across & 4½" tall. They follow each other around all the time & always sleep side by side. (And run to Mama whenever she's near!)
BONUS Question... * At what age or size should they be able to be outside "full time"?
I know I asked a lot! Thank you in advance for any & all input! This forum is AMAZING! I appreciate all that I've learned from it already! We reeeeally want Shermy & Turbo to be as healthy & happy as we can make them.

 

[COmtnLady]

Welcome to The Forum!


You have found the best tortoise info site anywhere online.
The Tortoise Forum has the best, most up-to-date info, plus there are many decades of tortoise keeping represented by the various members here. Everyone will do their best to help you help your tortoises have their most optimal and healthy life.
.
For your own peace of mind don't listen to the "advice" given by other sources (like: pet shops, social media sites, People at reptile shows, many of the YouTube videos, old books, and even most veterinarians). They're still using old info that doesn't work as well as what you'll find here.

Study the info in the links offered. All those head-exploding details will show you how to help your tortoise to thrive.

And, ask questions.

Hint: Run it by the other members before you buy new equipment or whatever - their expertise will save you a lot of time, stress, money, and damage to your tortoises.


Have you had a chance to read this yet? It has a lot of really good helpful info. ~

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

____________________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________






It is important that you separate these two tortoises. Tortoises are solitary animals who not only do NOT need companionship, they don't LIKE having other tortoises around. What humans see as cute or being friendly (sleeping together, cuddling, following one another around the enclosure, protecting food, etc.), they perceive as an intruder in there territory. The more dominant one will bully the other. You may think they are doing fine together, but each are living very stressful lives.
The dominant one will grow larger, which only adds to the bullying. The stress will affect their health, and eventually one will be so unhealthy you won't be able to look the other way any longer. They need to have separate enclosures a.s.a.p.

Signs of bullying in young tortoises

'Following' is a form of "mad dogging". Cuddling and sleeping in the same area is a form of trying to crowd the other out of the territory. Does one or both sit on the food? That's another one. Outward, obvious hostility like biting, ramming, or flipping seldom happens with juveniles. The...

tortoiseforum.org

Which tortoise to keep?

So it finally happened. After over 8 years together, my 2 CDT finally got into it. They had been separated for the last 4 years or so but finally went outside in the yard together. I watched them quite closely for a month or so and exactly what I had hoped would happen, did: complete...

tortoiseforum.org

There are threads on the forum that are particularly disturbing that show the results of keeping two adult tortoises together. If the above couple links don't explain it well enough for you to take this seriously, links to the more graphic ones can be provided.





Where is the water for your tortoises? They don't drink like dogs or cats. I'm assuming those silver bowls are the humidity ones you talked about, because they are far too high off of the ground for the tortoises to be able to do anything with. Tortoises need their water source to be sunken down in the ground, and large enough for them to walk into and sit and turn around in.

Speaking of water, how often are you soaking your tortoises? That will help keep them hydrated. Adults can do ok with a half-hour to hour long warm soak every two or three days.

Please don't feel insulted. It is just so much more important to correct these problems, then deal with the ones you asked in the opening post. The tortoises' welfare is my main concern.


Let's see what some of the others think.


Welcome aboard!



.

 

[EppsDynasty]

BIG red flags all over this. SAND KILLS period. O, sorry Hello glad you're here.

1st: 2 tortoises together is torture, there is no there way to say it. 1 will be the dominant and the other will be bullied it just is what it is. You need 2 enclosures and 2 houses. It is WHY one is smaller than the other, it's not that one is a runt or grows differently. Anyone who tells you that is an idiot (sorry just honest).

2nd: Your heat is being lost through the floor, it is the biggest heat loss area of your house. After you close up that window.

3rd: Go lay on your concrete driveway and see how much heat it will take to get you warm ......waiting........still ......more blankets still cold......ain't gonna work. check this out

4th: Those plastic door slats......did they come with the house? They suck, cheap worthless and just won't work. You need a thicker more durable plastic that can handle freezing temps (cause you will get em in AZ).

5th: You need Stanfield mats Kane WILL NOT work shortly with them growing. as shown 1 above 1 below. You can get the smaller ones 1.5'x2' they are 96 watts but the bigger ones 2'x3' are 115 watts and offer a far better space for your tort. Not just more pad BUT a more even consistent heat for them to sit on, the smaller works great on the ceilings.

6th: You DO NOT want a thermostat it will burn your tort. Thermostats just control power on power off at 100%, so burn the heck outta ya then off.........back on burning the heck outta ya then off. You need a rheostat that controls how much power is given to the mat, to make a more consistent and comfortable heat you need it on always and then control the temp that way. you are NOT heating the tort you are heating the space to 80 and the tort will be in there.....very important to remember. If you think of it as heating your tort you will cook them.

running out of time gotta go get to it ....over 200 torts are waiting for me. I hope this helps to get a start there will be far more knowledgeable people checking in I'm sure. Sulcata are our life and if you need ANY help please feel free to reach out personally.

 

[MrSunshine]

Welcome to The Forum!


You have found the best tortoise info site anywhere online.
The Tortoise Forum has the best, most up-to-date info, plus there are many decades of tortoise keeping represented by the various members here. Everyone will do their best to help you help your tortoises have their most optimal and healthy life.
.
For your own peace of mind don't listen to the "advice" given by other sources (like: pet shops, social media sites, People at reptile shows, many of the YouTube videos, old books, and even most veterinarians). They're still using old info that doesn't work as well as what you'll find here.

Study the info in the links offered. All those head-exploding details will show you how to help your tortoise to thrive.

And, ask questions.

Hint: Run it by the other members before you buy new equipment or whatever - their expertise will save you a lot of time, stress, money, and damage to your tortoises.


Have you had a chance to read this yet? It has a lot of really good helpful info. ~

Info For New People. Please Read This First.

Hello and welcome to tortoiseforum.org! We are all glad you are here! There is no other forum like this anywhere. We have tens of thousands of members from all over the world ranging from kids with their first tortoise to people who have been breeding and keeping high end tortoises since the...

tortoiseforum.org

____________________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________






It is important that you separate these two tortoises. Tortoises are solitary animals who not only do NOT need companionship, they don't LIKE having other tortoises around. What humans see as cute or being friendly (sleeping together, cuddling, following one another around the enclosure, protecting food, etc.), they perceive as an intruder in there territory. The more dominant one will bully the other. You may think they are doing fine together, but each are living very stressful lives.
The dominant one will grow larger, which only adds to the bullying. The stress will affect their health, and eventually one will be so unhealthy you won't be able to look the other way any longer. They need to have separate enclosures a.s.a.p.

Signs of bullying in young tortoises

'Following' is a form of "mad dogging". Cuddling and sleeping in the same area is a form of trying to crowd the other out of the territory. Does one or both sit on the food? That's another one. Outward, obvious hostility like biting, ramming, or flipping seldom happens with juveniles. The...

tortoiseforum.org

Which tortoise to keep?

So it finally happened. After over 8 years together, my 2 CDT finally got into it. They had been separated for the last 4 years or so but finally went outside in the yard together. I watched them quite closely for a month or so and exactly what I had hoped would happen, did: complete...

tortoiseforum.org

There are threads on the forum that are particularly disturbing that show the results of keeping two adult tortoises together. If the above couple links don't explain it well enough for you to take this seriously, links to the more graphic ones can be provided.





Where is the water for your tortoises? They don't drink like dogs or cats. I'm assuming those silver bowls are the humidity ones you talked about, because they are far too high off of the ground for the tortoises to be able to do anything with. Tortoises need their water source to be sunken down in the ground, and large enough for them to walk into and sit and turn around in.

Speaking of water, how often are you soaking your tortoises? That will help keep them hydrated. Adults can do ok with a half-hour to hour long warm soak every two or three days.

Please don't feel insulted. It is just so much more important to correct these problems, then deal with the ones you asked in the opening post. The tortoises' welfare is my main concern.


Let's see what some of the others think.


Welcome aboard!



.

Thank you SOOO much for the reply, links & info! I'll review the links this evening. And no worries!...Not feeling insulted at all! (Thanks for the concern!)
They always have plenty of clean, fresh water. They also have large soaking trays/pans that are cleaned & replenished with fresh water daily. My wife let them soak every day for the 1st 2 years of their lives!
The silver bowls in the pics aren't being used for anything currently. But will likely be for "snacks" or something. (grass & flowers)
The enclosure area is still a work in progress, along with the house. I'm designing a shallow, wide, built in soaking/basking "pond" with walkin/out access all the way around, a basking deck with a slate platform, & some other things to keep it "interesting".
It seriously bums me out that they can't stay together. I was hoping (like many I'm sure) that they could happily co-exist. But I have to trust the "experts" over min & my wife's own wishful perceptions. Oof! This will be heartbreaking for her! We've read that they're solitary animals, don't need companionship, & don't do well together. But again, they "seem" like they're "fine". Neither is noticeably dominant over the other...until less they're BOTH trying to dominate each other! We'll have to figure out how to separate them in the space we have. But keeping them both will create deeper bonds with them & make it even more difficult to give one of them up later, when they're bigger. (They're only 2 ½ years old)
I'm still looking for feedback, affirmation, correction, advice, etc on the heating / cooling questions & assumptions I've stated in my original post.
Thank you again!

 

[COmtnLady]

More eye strain department (in no particular order, but the last section is about some of what you were asking about) :

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Reprinted with permission from "Everything-Turtles" on Facebook THIS IS A GUIDE, NOT A MANDATORY FOOD LIST

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The Best Way To Raise A Sulcata, Leopard, Or Star Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. Babies hatch during the...

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Leopard/sulcata starter

Hello there! In this thread I’m going to include some information below on how I’d personally tackle an indoor starter set up for a leopard/sulcata until they’re bigger. Hopefully it helps give people some ideas!” I know it looks like a lot to go over, I like to make sure all bases are covered...

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Beginner Mistakes

To comment on Tom's article, go here: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-split-Beginner-Mistakes#axzz1tG8s05M5 Over the years many of us, myself included, have made many of these mistakes, and we have certainly seen them made many times by others. With springtime upon us and many new...

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Common keeping errors

Hello everyone! I’d been a long time lurker on this site long before joining just under a year ago now, over that time I’ve seen these husbandry issues come up time and time again, sometimes with dire consequences☹️ I thought this thread might serve as a good visual guide for these common...

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Enclosure inspiration

Howdy folks! Hope everyone is well! As you all know, I’m a big fan of making threads that cater more towards visual learners like myself, I’ve really been wanting to create a thread full of adult enclosure inspiration for a while now, I’ve managed to find some great references over time! I do...

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Salute to Tom's night boxes

So I have a Sulcata living in a greenhouse. He has a box following Tom's design inside the greenhouse. I have another of these boxes just out in my yard with 5 Russians wintering in it. I kept them up because just got them in the late summer, and they are underweight. Gaining nicely, but I...

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Single Tortoise Night Box

I like my larger tortoises to live outside full time. My climate permits this year round with a little help. For people who live where it snows all winter, this type of box is still good for warmer weather, getting them out earlier in Spring, and keeping them out a bit later into fall. You'll...

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Double Door Night Box

As the years have gone by and I build more of these boxes, I learn more and more each time. This one is the latest and I incorporated everything I've learned over the years. I also tried to take lots of pics so I can explain in more detail some of what is going on. It will take multiple posts to...

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[MrSunshine]

BIG red flags all over this. SAND KILLS period. O, sorry Hello glad you're here.

1st: 2 tortoises together is torture, there is no there way to say it. 1 will be the dominant and the other will be bullied it just is what it is. You need 2 enclosures and 2 houses. It is WHY one is smaller than the other, it's not that one is a runt or grows differently. Anyone who tells you that is an idiot (sorry just honest).

2nd: Your heat is being lost through the floor, it is the biggest heat loss area of your house. After you close up that window.

3rd: Go lay on your concrete driveway and see how much heat it will take to get you warm ......waiting........still ......more blankets still cold......ain't gonna work. check this out

4th: Those plastic door slats......did they come with the house? They suck, cheap worthless and just won't work. You need a thicker more durable plastic that can handle freezing temps (cause you will get em in AZ).

5th: You need Stanfield mats Kane WILL NOT work shortly with them growing. as shown 1 above 1 below. You can get the smaller ones 1.5'x2' they are 96 watts but the bigger ones 2'x3' are 115 watts and offer a far better space for your tort. Not just more pad BUT a more even consistent heat for them to sit on, the smaller works great on the ceilings.

6th: You DO NOT want a thermostat it will burn your tort. Thermostats just control power on power off at 100%, so burn the heck outta ya then off.........back on burning the heck outta ya then off. You need a rheostat that controls how much power is given to the mat, to make a more consistent and comfortable heat you need it on always and then control the temp that way. you are NOT heating the tort you are heating the space to 80 and the tort will be in there.....very important to remember. If you think of it as heating your tort you will cook them.

running out of time gotta go get to it ....over 200 torts are waiting for me. I hope this helps to get a start there will be far more knowledgeable people checking in I'm sure. Sulcata are our life and if you need ANY help please feel free to reach out personally.

Thank you for the great info!
You come on a bit "strong"! ...But I get that you want to make certain points VERY clear. So, I appreciate that.
They're not "living" or spending the night out there yet. But we have been putting them out there daily to cruise around for a few weeks now.
We're working out how to separate them, without having to rehome one of them. Don't want to think about that! ...We "thought" they were great together. They're very active, eat & drink great, etc. We watch them closely. Neither of them shows any of the many signs we've learned over the 1st 2 ½ years of their lives that indicate they're stressed in any way. (But YES, we KNOW that we could be mistaken.)
One doesn't follow the other more than the other. They go their own way most of the time, but do "seem" to be pal-ing around a lot. If they go to sleep outside before we bring them in for the evening, they would always go into their own little "garages" we'd set up for them, (before I made the house) or in separate corners at the back of their new house. But they are all side by side. When they do "call it a day", they always go together, at the same time. And it's not one that always follows the other. If one goes 1st, the other follows, & vice versa. They're also always fed their own, separate meals. They're definitely different sizes greatly due in part to their genetics. NOT saying that what you (& others) are saying isn't absolutely true & a significant factor in things. But like every living thing, they do grow at different rates & to different sizes naturally. Genetics, male vs female, etc...
As for the sand... It's 1 ton of "play sand" out there currently. That's on it's way out, now that we've learned better. We'd read & seen that "play sand" mixed with "clean dirt" (40% / 60%) was a good mixture. I have 3 tons of "clean", organic dirt coming this week just for that covered 5' x 10' area.
Totally get your point about the thermostat vs rheostat. Didn't think about that at all. Question: With the heating panel suspended aprox 6" above them, & the temp sensor 5½" directly below it, is it reasonable to think they shouldn't get burned as it has a max temp setting? The temp semsor with the thermostat we have is incredibly sensitive. If I touch it with my fingers, the temp reading immediately starts to go up! Also, don't some of the available mats have built-in rheostats that can be set a a constant 90° for example? ...I think I'd read that in here.
To your point about warming up on concrete... It actually retains heat remarkably well. (Cold too) I'm a Solar, energy & energy efficiency expert. (Literrally, one of the foremost authorities in the country, in fact.) I'm definitely not "losing" any heat through the floor. It has 3" of sand beneath & up to the underside of the floor boards. I'm simply not generating & capturing enough heat to retain down low. The 40 watt heating panel just isn't enough & can't simply can't generate enough heat to fill the space when it's in the mid 40's to high 60's outside. All 4 walls & the ceiling are insulated with 1" thick insulating foam with radiant barrier on both sides. The plastic slats in the opening are losing a ton & the primary cause for the lack of heat retention & heat loss in this thing! This conversation is making me want to immediately solve the entryway problem 1st. I can install a solid plywood base on top of the wood slats, & 4" of rockwool insulation beneath them to further insulate & capture more heat. But my concern is waste & moisture retention from doing that. ...Thoughts? Suggestions?
I was wondering about the heating matts. (What brand, size, wattage...) Thanks for the tips! A 2' x 3' would cover the entire floor, leaving nowhere to get off of it without going outside. Is that OK?
I just put in 2" of coconut coir, then 2" of cypress bark on the floor in there this afternoon.
Not sure where to get the heavier duty plastic for the opening, but I'm sure the Internet (or someone here) will help me!

Running a test now... It's currently 49° outside & 59° inside. Turning the heater on now. I closed the little window in the back & loosly placed 2 layers of thick cardboard in the door opening to mitigate (not block) much of the airflow, the cold permiating it's way in, & the heat from escaping. Let's see if it gets any warmer in there tonight!

 

[MrSunshine]

BIG red flags all over this. SAND KILLS period. O, sorry Hello glad you're here.

1st: 2 tortoises together is torture, there is no there way to say it. 1 will be the dominant and the other will be bullied it just is what it is. You need 2 enclosures and 2 houses. It is WHY one is smaller than the other, it's not that one is a runt or grows differently. Anyone who tells you that is an idiot (sorry just honest).

2nd: Your heat is being lost through the floor, it is the biggest heat loss area of your house. After you close up that window.

3rd: Go lay on your concrete driveway and see how much heat it will take to get you warm ......waiting........still ......more blankets still cold......ain't gonna work. check this out

4th: Those plastic door slats......did they come with the house? They suck, cheap worthless and just won't work. You need a thicker more durable plastic that can handle freezing temps (cause you will get em in AZ).

5th: You need Stanfield mats Kane WILL NOT work shortly with them growing. as shown 1 above 1 below. You can get the smaller ones 1.5'x2' they are 96 watts but the bigger ones 2'x3' are 115 watts and offer a far better space for your tort. Not just more pad BUT a more even consistent heat for them to sit on, the smaller works great on the ceilings.

6th: You DO NOT want a thermostat it will burn your tort. Thermostats just control power on power off at 100%, so burn the heck outta ya then off.........back on burning the heck outta ya then off. You need a rheostat that controls how much power is given to the mat, to make a more consistent and comfortable heat you need it on always and then control the temp that way. you are NOT heating the tort you are heating the space to 80 and the tort will be in there.....very important to remember. If you think of it as heating your tort you will cook them.

running out of time gotta go get to it ....over 200 torts are waiting for me. I hope this helps to get a start there will be far more knowledgeable people checking in I'm sure. Sulcata are our life and if you need ANY help please feel free to reach out personally.

Those videos were great! Reeeeally helpful. Thank you for sharing the links!

 

[EppsDynasty]

They're definitely different sizes greatly due in part to their genetics.

This is FLAT OUT BS...... They ARE different sizes due to them being housed together period. If me and you were in a prison cell together would both of us be Alpha's? Of course not. That BS genetic crap is just people putting their feelings in front of real facts and real animals. Amazing how there are only different sizes when housed together, never seen a runt that was raised alone......that kinda say's it all right there.
You lose more than 33% of heat generated through the floor, sorry physics. ANY material on the floor will cause a fire, you need a solid floor (no slats) and just clean it. You say concrete hold heat (and cold) well in the real world any heat created the concrete will suck out of that environment and displace into the ground. If concrete was as you say so many people with torts would use it BUT it fact concrete sucks literally. NO ONE uses concrete....no one why? Because it sucks. If you keep the floor uninsulated start reading the temp with a temp gun.....you will figure it out real quick.

I don't mean to "come on strong" just honest. No animal gets it's needs met when human feelings are put in front of that. Just in case you didn't see or know..... We ARE the largest Sulcata Sanctuary in the country....I'm actually up at 2 am today to go rescue a 150+ pound one that has lived in a backyard for way over 30 years with no heat.....yes still alive but tortured for decades. If you truly want the best (and I do believe that) you will end up learning things that work with torts but are not necessarily 'Real world common knowledge' So the info I'm telling you is because there is (everyday) over 125 big guys that depend on me and I take that responsibility very serious..... it's why I made the video. I hope I didn't offend ya but I'm just honest.

 

[Tom]

We have 2) 2 ½ yr old Sulcata Tortoises. (Sherman & Turbo) We're located in Buckeye, Az. (Up to 120° in summer, & can occasionally get down to the low 30's in winter) They still live inside, but we're putting them out during the day, until early evening, around 5:00-5:30.
Attached are pictures of the enclosure I built for them. (It's still a work in progress.)
It's insulated on all 4 walls & the ceiling with 1" thick foam with radiant barrier on both sides of the insulation. The walls are now lined with Phillipine Mahogany, so they won't eat the insulation. (Not pictured)
The inside dimensions are 36" wide x 22" deep x 30" high at the highest point. It has a 12"x12" (10"x10" actual heating area) Vivarium 40 watt radiant heating panel installed aprox 18-20" above the floor, the temperature probe is aprox 4" directly below the heating panel & aprox 14" above the floor. I have an Inkbird ITC-312 thermostat. (Day / Night settings)
Based on what I've read here so far, I need to make a LOT of changes....
The space will not heat up anywhere remotely close to the desired ambient temperature of 80°. So far, (according to the app & an independent thermometer) the space only briefly gets up to 69°, then dips back down to the mid 60's. It's currently 50°- 55° outside at night, low 70's during the day.
So, please feel free to confirm, refute, & advise on the following...
* I probably need an 80 watt heating panel instead of the 40 watt?
* How far above them should the heating panel be placed? 6" - 8"? (Adjusting it as they grow)
* Locate the temperature probe as far away from the heat source(s) as possible & lower on the wall to assure a minimum radiant temperature?
* Use 3 thermometers to track basking temps, central area temps & farthest from heat source temps? ...Or just the fathest away one?
* A heating matt IS recommended? (Brand? Size? Wattage?)
* OK to have the heating matt & heating panel connected to the same thermostat?
* Or better to use a matt with a built in thermostat (set to 90°?) separate from the thermostat used for the heating panel?
* What about a small, low volume fan to circulate the air inside?
* The opening has a metal "gate" to keep them safe from preditors at night. Is it recommended or necessary to attach a solid panel to it for insulating purposes at night? Or should the plastic flaps "suffice"?
* Open water containers for humidity? Ideal humidity percentage? Maybe place them on a shelf up higher since there house has a "higher" ceiling? We currently have a 12" terracotta dish filled with water on the floor.
What about COOLING? It gets HOT here. Is a simple fan enough? A small evaporative cooler? A smaaaaall A/C unit? Or nothing needed?
* Keep them separate??? They're both from the same "batch". Not sure why, but Sherman is about 50% bigger than Turbo at aprox 9" across & 4½" tall. They follow each other around all the time & always sleep side by side. (And run to Mama whenever she's near!)
BONUS Question... * At what age or size should they be able to be outside "full time"?
I know I asked a lot! Thank you in advance for any & all input! This forum is AMAZING! I appreciate all that I've learned from it already! We reeeeally want Shermy & Turbo to be as healthy & happy as we can make them.View attachment 397807View attachment 397808View attachment 397809View attachment 397810View attachment 397811View attachment 397812View attachment 397813View attachment 397814View attachment 397815View attachment 397816

First, hello and welcome. Very glad you found us. We all want to help make things better for you and your tortoises. To do that we have to point out what is wrong. If we don't, you won't know what to fix or how to fix it. I'll list my comments to keep my thoughts more organized. I'll reiterate some of what has already been said, but phrase it in my own words.
1. Sand is an impaction risk and skin and eye irritant. I see that you've already learned this and are getting rid of it, so I will move on.
2. Dog houses don't work for tortoises. The design is all wrong in many ways. As you are seeing, 1 inch insulation isn't enough. The open door with flaps is not enough. The window is just letting heat out. Even in a well made insulated box, like the ones that @COmtnLady linked for you, you need more than one heat source if using radiant heat panels and heat mats on the floor. You need both. I can see that you put a lot of time and thought into it, but as you are seeing, it doesn't work. I went through a similar process many years ago and I had to learn the hard way what works and what doesn't. You don't have to learn the hard way.
3. A well insulated floor is essential to retaining heat.
4. Don't try to set the temperature of the mat with a rheostat or thermostat. Use a Kane heat mat, 18x28 inches, and plug it into the thermostat along with the RHP. If the ambient temp is below your set point, you want the mat "On". They all have internal thermostats to keep them from getting too hot. Regulating the surface temps makes it too cool to do its job. We are using that mat to warm the core of the tortoise from the bottom up. The tortoise needs to be able to get its core temp into the mid 90s to digest its food and keep its gut flora and fauna healthy. If you put a pan of water on a 212 degree hot plate, it will take a long time for the water to warm up, and it will never boil due to evaporative cooling. Now imagine that hot plate was 600 degrees. The water will warm up much quicker and eventually boil in spite of the evaporative cooling losses at the surface.
5. The heat mat alone is not enough. You also need a radiant heat panel over head. The combination of the two work well together, and the tortoise needs an area inside the warm box to get off of the heat source. This is why a 4x4 box is the minimum recommended. I like RHPs around 80 watts. Tractor Supply sells one for chickens that is adjustable to either 50 or 200 watts. Your are doesn't get that cold, so 50 watts is probably good most of the time, and 200 watts could be used when night temps are in the low 40s or lower. The thermostat will keep it from over heating.
6. If you read the thread called "Double Door Night Box" linked in post number 5 above, you'll see an alternative way to heat that is simpler and much cheaper, and one heater can work for both tortoises.
7. I generally move them outside at around 8-10 inches, and I do this in late spring so that they have time to acclimate. Prior to that, they should be indoors in a large humid closed chamber.
8. Never pairs. The size difference in your two is the most compelling evidence of the terrible chronic stress they have been under. Separate them ASAP.
9. It looks like the area where you are putting them outside is in the shade. Is there sun during the day?
10. In summer in your area, when temps are over 100 every day, they need to be able to get underground in a burrow. You can encourage this by starting a burrow for them in the area where YOU want it. Then in fall, block the burrow entrance with a sheet of plywood or something, and make them start using the night box again in fall and winter.
11. The see-through little black fencing is no good. Sulcatas will sometimes rub themselves bloody on barriers that they can see through like the one you are using or chain link fencing. Use opaque barriers to pen them. You can make three 8 foot long by 16" tall strips from a single sheet of plywood. Wooded stakes in the ground on 8 foot centers will give you something to screw the ends of the plywood into. Or, I use slump stone blocks to make my walls. As they get bigger and stronger, more sturdy barriers will become necessary.
12. The concrete pavers in the enclosure might become a problem. It is too abrasive. Over time it can rub their feet raw and you will come home to little bloody foot prints every where. You don't have a lot of it, and your tortoises are small, so this is not an immediate problem to deal with. I just wanted you to be aware for future reference.
13. I deal humidity in the box is around 80 percent. It's very difficult to achieve this in dry climates like ours. I add as many water tubs as I can fit, and call it good.
14. 80 degrees inside the box is good when the weather is warm and sunny. When its cold and overcast and daytime highs are staying under 70, I bump the boxes up to around 86.
15. No need for a fan in a smaller box like this. I do like them in large 4x8 foot boxes, but they are still optional, not essential.

Most of the answers you seek are in the threads that have been linked, I hope all of this helps, and your questions are welcome.

 

[jaizei]

4. Don't try to set the temperature of the mat with a rheostat or thermostat. Use a Kane heat mat, 18x28 inches, and plug it into the thermostat along with the RHP. If the ambient temp is below your set point, you want the mat "On". They all have internal thermostats to keep them from getting too hot.

The only Kane heat mats that have internal thermostats are the ones that come with a TD-30 thermostat. Basic heat mats that come with a standard plug don't have anything to keep them from getting too hot.

 

[MrSunshine]

This is FLAT OUT BS...... They ARE different sizes due to them being housed together period. If me and you were in a prison cell together would both of us be Alpha's? Of course not. That BS genetic crap is just people putting their feelings in front of real facts and real animals. Amazing how there are only different sizes when housed together, never seen a runt that was raised alone......that kinda say's it all right there.
You lose more than 33% of heat generated through the floor, sorry physics. ANY material on the floor will cause a fire, you need a solid floor (no slats) and just clean it. You say concrete hold heat (and cold) well in the real world any heat created the concrete will suck out of that environment and displace into the ground. If concrete was as you say so many people with torts would use it BUT it fact concrete sucks literally. NO ONE uses concrete....no one why? Because it sucks. If you keep the floor uninsulated start reading the temp with a temp gun.....you will figure it out real quick.

I don't mean to "come on strong" just honest. No animal gets it's needs met when human feelings are put in front of that. Just in case you didn't see or know..... We ARE the largest Sulcata Sanctuary in the country....I'm actually up at 2 am today to go rescue a 150+ pound one that has lived in a backyard for way over 30 years with no heat.....yes still alive but tortured for decades. If you truly want the best (and I do believe that) you will end up learning things that work with torts but are not necessarily 'Real world common knowledge' So the info I'm telling you is because there is (everyday) over 125 big guys that depend on me and I take that responsibility very serious..... it's why I made the video. I hope I didn't offend ya but I'm just honest.

I appreciate your "intent". But your delivery is VERY off-putting. Rude, in fact. Enough so, to tempt me to seek advice elsewhere. While you may be part of the biggest tortoise rescue in the land, that DOESN'T make YOU the "all knowing individual." Nor does it give you right to speak out (right or wrong) in the manner that you do.
Because of your rather krass, demeaning delivery & insistance of YOUR information, I'm going to go down this rabbit hole... It's not advisable to call someone's comments "bs", when you don't actually know that of what you speak, or that other person's background.
While you "may" be one of the foremost authorities on tortoises, calling genetic variables in growth rates "bs"... is itself "bs". You're wrong. Period. (And my "feelings" have NOTHING to do with what I'd previously stated.) I'd already clearly acknowledged yours (& others) points about them being together, stress, dominance, bullying, et al..., and was simply stating an additional & undeniable "FACT". That's the end & final word on that part of the discussion. ...Additionally, to make clear, & help you "properly" advise people going forward, the same goes for heat retention & heat loss factors. There are MULTIPLE factors involved with the afformentioned that I KNOW & understand better than anyone here. (That includes you.) For you to arbitrarily state that "more than 33% of heat loss is through the floor", isn't even remotely close to correct in "most" scenarios. It "can" be far greater, but is "usually" far less. It's specifically WHY all residential & commercial structures have concrete floors. Your understanding about the thermodynamic properties of concrete is completely wrong. Concrete retains heat far more effectively than wood. (Same with cold.)
Because concrete is dense and heavy, it has high thermal mass, allowing it to absorb, store, and slowly release significant amounts of heat over time. Wood, by contrast, is a natural insulator; its porous, air-filled structure makes it excellent at blocking heat transfer but poor at storing it.
Allow heat to permiate a concrete floor/surface & a wood floor/surface at the same time, turn off the heat & see which on stays warmer longer... The Concrete will. Sorry...REAL "PHYSICS".
I didn't want to "puff up my chest" & prove you wrong. You kinda left me no choice, because of your misinformation.
I'm quite willing & wanting to learn about how to best care for my torties. I have no problem being told I'm wrong, or what I'm doing is wrong, then correcting it. I won't tolerate someone being rude, krass, mean, or demeaning to me, then saying "I don't mean to", then continuing it... That doesn't work either. You WON'T be that way me again. I'm not "asking" you. I'm "telling" you. I hope I've made that point abundantly clear.
I respect your knowledge of tortoises & will continue to appreciate anything you're willing to share. (Should you chose to continue after this.) If you want me, or anyone to listen to you, take your advice & help improve the lives of their tortoises, please exercise more "tact" in your delivery. It makes it MUCH easier to accept & prevent long, stupid responses like THIS!

Definition of "Tact":
The ability to tell someone to "Go to Hell" ...& have them be HAPPY to be on their way!

 

[Tom]

The only Kane heat mats that have internal thermostats are the ones that come with a TD-30 thermostat. Basic heat mats that come with a standard plug don't have anything to keep them from getting too hot.

That is not what Mr. Kane told me in a phone conversation. He told me he started embedding them after see the report of his mat that started on fire.

 

[AuroraShire]

I appreciate your "intent". But your delivery is VERY off-putting. Rude, in fact. Enough so, to tempt me to seek advice elsewhere. While you may be part of the biggest tortoise rescue in the land, that DOESN'T make YOU the "all knowing individual." Nor does it give you right to speak out (right or wrong) in the manner that you do.
Because of your rather krass, demeaning delivery & insistance of YOUR information, I'm going to go down this rabbit hole... It's not advisable to call someone's comments "bs", when you don't actually know that of what you speak, or that other person's background.
While you "may" be one of the foremost authorities on tortoises, calling genetic variables in growth rates "bs"... is itself "bs". You're wrong. Period. (And my "feelings" have NOTHING to do with what I'd previously stated.) I'd already clearly acknowledged yours (& others) points about them being together, stress, dominance, bullying, et al..., and was simply stating an additional & undeniable "FACT". That's the end & final word on that part of the discussion. ...Additionally, to make clear, & help you "properly" advise people going forward, the same goes for heat retention & heat loss factors. There are MULTIPLE factors involved with the afformentioned that I KNOW & understand better than anyone here. (That includes you.) For you to arbitrarily state that "more than 33% of heat loss is through the floor", isn't even remotely close to correct in "most" scenarios. It "can" be far greater, but is "usually" far less. It's specifically WHY all residential & commercial structures have concrete floors. Your understanding about the thermodynamic properties of concrete is completely wrong. Concrete retains heat far more effectively than wood. (Same with cold.)
Because concrete is dense and heavy, it has high thermal mass, allowing it to absorb, store, and slowly release significant amounts of heat over time. Wood, by contrast, is a natural insulator; its porous, air-filled structure makes it excellent at blocking heat transfer but poor at storing it.
Allow heat to permiate a concrete floor/surface & a wood floor/surface at the same time, turn off the heat & see which on stays warmer longer... The Concrete will. Sorry...REAL "PHYSICS".
I didn't want to "puff up my chest" & prove you wrong. You kinda left me no choice, because of your misinformation.
I'm quite willing & wanting to learn about how to best care for my torties. I have no problem being told I'm wrong, or what I'm doing is wrong, then correcting it. I won't tolerate someone being rude, krass, mean, or demeaning to me, then saying "I don't mean to", then continuing it... That doesn't work either. You WON'T be that way me again. I'm not "asking" you. I'm "telling" you. I hope I've made that point abundantly clear.
I respect your knowledge of tortoises & will continue to appreciate anything you're willing to share. (Should you chose to continue after this.) If you want me, or anyone to listen to you, take your advice & help improve the lives of their tortoises, please exercise more "tact" in your delivery. It makes it MUCH easier to accept & prevent long, stupid responses like THIS!

Definition of "Tact":
The ability to tell someone to "Go to Hell" ...& have them be HAPPY to be on their way!

I don’t have much experience with tortoises, but I do with concrete/cement. When I worked in a warehouse, we always, always made sure to store batteries off the paved ground, because the concrete would cause the batteries to get colder faster, thus eating away at the battery’s integrity. So, I’m not sure in what situations concrete would help something stay warm.

 

[mark1]

i believe many folks believe the battery concrete thing, it's not true..... heat is actually more detrimental to a batteries life......

concrete/rocks are great for stabilizing temps, they absorbs, retains and releases heat slowly, once you get it to temperature it doesn't take a lot to keep it there and it slowly releases it.... i use the ground and rocks to stabilize my ponds...... they are really small ponds in zone 6a, the rocks stabilize the temp swings, never a problem with excessive freezing.....

i use an infrared heater on a concrete floor in my kennels, 4 dog doors a window and 2 man doors, zone 6a, i hardly ever see the heater on, the floor is always warm to the touch.....

 

[AuroraShire]

i believe many folks believe the battery concrete thing, it's not true..... heat is actually more detrimental to a batteries life......

concrete/rocks are great for stabilizing temps, they absorbs, retains and releases heat slowly, once you get it to temperature it doesn't take a lot to keep it there and it slowly releases it.... i use the ground and rocks to stabilize my ponds...... they are really small ponds in zone 6a, the rocks stabilize the temp swings, never a problem with excessive freezing.....

i use an infrared heater on a concrete floor in my kennels, 4 dog doors a window and 2 man doors, zone 6a, i hardly ever see the heater on, the floor is always warm to the touch.....

I looked it up, and from I can tell, it isn’t a myth as much as battery cases are made differently now, of plastics that make it not a problem. So I was wrong about batteries on concrete being a problem with modern batteries. Which is definitely good to know

 

[EppsDynasty]

It makes it MUCH easier to accept & prevent long, stupid responses like THIS!

You are correct that was a stupid response. I'm telling you 'what' happens....'what' to do, you can get puffed up and pissed off while your torts suffer period. I'm not here for you and your (I'm the bad a** in AZ) bologna. It seems you DO have a real problem with being told your wrong.....maybe because you're the best in AZ, maybe. It is people like you that know absolutely nothing but put your feelings and ego in front of your tortoises life's.

I will state a FACT your solar training will never disprove .......... Your 2 torts are being tortured period. The small one is small because of the big one NOT genetics. A properly cared for Sulcata will never be the runt why is that? Genetics? Of course not but you just don't want to swallow that pill because you want to keep the two together and that flat out sucks for that small one. It will only suffer in your care as long as you have this mentality. I in no way meant to be disrespectful to you ....in any way...BUT if you have preconceived notions and feelings you're not willing to part with the truth is disrespect. Sorry I speak for torts not you, not never.

 

[Alex and the Redfoot]

You are correct that was a stupid response. I'm telling you 'what' happens....'what' to do, you can get puffed up and pissed off while your torts suffer period. I'm not here for you and your (I'm the bad a** in AZ) bologna. It seems you DO have a real problem with being told your wrong.....maybe because you're the best in AZ, maybe. It is people like you that know absolutely nothing but put your feelings and ego in front of your tortoises life's.

I will state a FACT your solar training will never disprove .......... Your 2 torts are being tortured period. The small one is small because of the big one NOT genetics. A properly cared for Sulcata will never be the runt why is that? Genetics? Of course not but you just don't want to swallow that pill because you want to keep the two together and that flat out sucks for that small one. It will only suffer in your care as long as you have this mentality. I in no way meant to be disrespectful to you ....in any way...BUT if you have preconceived notions and feelings you're not willing to part with the truth is disrespect. Sorry I speak for torts not you, not never.

Dana, with all my respect to what you do with rescue, helping Natsuko etc.... Responses like this actually do disservice for TFO, your sanctuary, reputation and, eventually, tortoises.

Once again, it's not about what you say but about how you speak. Offensive and disregarding tone just turns people away. Let's say, I wouldn't stay on TFO if my first thread was greeted like this.

As of genetics: it plays role (it's often stated here, on the forum, that tortoises grow in their own pace) so it's not completely "bs". There are also factors like sex and species locality (if tortoises are from different lineages).

 

[mark1]

As of genetics: it plays role (it's often stated here, on the forum, that tortoises grow in their own pace) so it's not completely "bs". There are also factors like sex and species locality (if tortoises are from different lineages).

sometimes i find newly hatched eastern box turtles , various numbers, i've found one and i've found as many as 7....... i raise them all together, right now i have a 5-6yr old found as one that is maybe 4" scl , 3yrs ago i found two and raised them together , last fall those two were bit bigger than the 5-6yr old....... about 10yrs ago i found 7, raised them all together, everyone of them is almost exactly the same size today......

 

[EppsDynasty]

Dana, with all my respect to what you do with rescue, helping Natsuko etc.... Responses like this actually do disservice for TFO, your sanctuary, reputation and, eventually, tortoises.

Once again, it's not about what you say but about how you speak. Offensive and disregarding tone just turns people away. Let's say, I wouldn't stay on TFO if my first thread was greeted like this.

As of genetics: it plays role (it's often stated here, on the forum, that tortoises grow in their own pace) so it's not completely "bs". There are also factors like sex and species locality (if tortoises are from different lineages).

UNDERSTOOD ......

It is clear that what was wanted was to be told yes you can do _______. We who care will not tell someone they can do something their feelings want if it's not in the best interest of the tort. These 2 torts need to be separated and that is NOT what is wanted.......well I'm never going to tell anyone go ahead and keep them together because of any reason. So to try and avoid that the "genetics" issue was brought up to try and discredit that they are together and that be the cause.

If genetics is such an issue why do we not see any small sulcata that were properly taken care of? ........Why?
Well because yes genetics is real, yes there can be smaller torts, but that's not why 1 tort is half the size of another at 2 1/2 years old. Anyone that thinks that or trys to say that is BS.

I want to say ....... Some of you may remember when I was the one saying we need to be nicer to try and help these torts. But I have learned that we cannot sugar coat harm to try and save a persons feelings. We have to be honest and in some cases blunt to try and save the tort(s). There is nothing I can do to get a person to put their feelings aside and look at a situation openly .....if they have preconcieved notions and DON"T want to do something it doesn't matter how nice it's said it still is called disrespect.

These tortoise are in a situation that will cause them to loose their life's period.....sooner or later they will suffer to death. So does pampering someones feelings help that? NO. If this person or any other doesn't want to build 2 enclosures 2 houses 2 times the work it's real easy to say "Your being rude" and keep them together. That's how feelings are easier to deal with because they can be manipulated, facts are hard, uncomfortable and real. I'm still waiting for a "fact" that a Sulcata only made it to 50 pounds due to it being a runt NOT it had a terrible life. I am truly sorry if this offended the OP or anyone else here but what I said is true it's feelings that were hurt not facts.

 

[mark1]

If genetics is such an issue why do we not see any small sulcata that were properly taken care of? ........Why?

Dana, you are 100% correct, keeping sulcata's together is absolutely not safe , are people gonna do it , absolutely, is it gonna work out, not in most cases..... as for size and genetics, there are wild "clades" of sulcatas that genetically vary greatly in size..... the US population is a mix of most all of them......

keep doing what your doing, i think it's beyond commendable .........