A Recurring Issue

[Tom]

For instance... The theory that sulcatas need a dry environment as youngsters to remain healthy.... Someone had to take the plunge and go against the norm..and actually test the theory of humidity being beneficial to young torts....That person took a gamble with the health of that Tort... And the gamble was correct...

This is different than our example with Jonny. With Jonny, we all know what will eventually happen and we all know that it will not be good. We see it all the time. Well, SOME of us see it all the time.

In the case of sulcatas and dryness, I will speak only for myself here. This was not an event. I did not just one day plop a sulcata into a swampy environment and proclaim, "Hey, lets see what happens to this poor tortoise..." It was a process. A process that took many years of observation of many situations all over the world. Many people were consulted and questioned and many tortoises were observed. Weather patterns were studied and many prior personal failures were carefully evaluated. Rare cases of success were also carefully evaluated. I knew what was going to happen before I ever did it, because I had seen it done before. I did not invent the concept of humidity and hydration for sulcatas, I simply joined a forum and told people about it. I also proceeded carefully at first as I'm sure the people who discovered the world was not flat did.

I know that your first paragraph is a general statement, but let me address it on a personal level. I do not want people to believe or do only what I say and disregard what anyone else says. I want people to do what works and disregard what does NOT work. I want them to NOT do things that we all know are detrimental. Detrimental things like raising sulcata hatchlings on rabbit pellets, under a hot light, with no water bowl and a diet of lettuce.
I could really not care less who gets credit for it, and I have no "God" complex as I have been accused in the past. I DO have an unhealthy obsession with figuring out and eliminating pyramiding in captive tortoises and sharing what I learn with anyone who will listen.

Further Hector, I appreciate and value your well thought out response and insight. Thank you.

 

[Jacqui]

This is a good point Jacqui, but somehow I do not equate Orville, Wilbur and Christopher with our little Jonny. There is a difference between pioneering something new based on the facts that you do know to try to figure out the rest, and doing something that will have a known and certain bad outcome.

As almost always Tom, you and I disagree.

 

[dmmj]

Let me just say, I am against kids (boys or girls) sticking butter knives in light sockets.

 

[Tom]

Let me just say, I am against kids (boys or girls) sticking butter knives in light sockets.

... or electrical outlets.

 

[Jacqui]

This is different than our example with Jonny. With Jonny, we all know what will eventually happen and we all know that it will not be good.

Only those folks who jumped to the conclusion that Johny was going to stick that knife into an outlet which actually has electricity working in it. Those folks made an assumption, which because there was no power to that outlet were proven completely wrong. Nothing bad happened to Johny.

 

[dmmj]

I guess something bad can happen if johnny thinks all electrical outlets are like that, until the day he finds one that actually has current running through it.

 

[Tom]

This is different than our example with Jonny. With Jonny, we all know what will eventually happen and we all know that it will not be good.

Only those folks who jumped to the conclusion that Johny was going to stick that knife into an outlet which actually has electricity working in it. Those folks made an assumption, which because there was no power to that outlet were proven completely wrong. Nothing bad happened to Johny.

As a debate technique, this works. In the real world, I think not. Tell me it would not concern you to find your child sticking metal objects into plug receptacles even if you knew the power was off. Tell me you think its an okay thing to do as long as someone says the power is off...

 

[Tony the tank]

For instance... The theory that sulcatas need a dry environment as youngsters to remain healthy.... Someone had to take the plunge and go against the norm..and actually test the theory of humidity being beneficial to young torts....That person took a gamble with the health of that Tort... And the gamble was correct...

This is different than our example with Jonny. With Jonny, we all know what will eventually happen and we all know that it will not be good. We see it all the time. Well, SOME of us see it all the time.

In the case of sulcatas and dryness, I will speak only for myself here. This was not an event. I did not just one day plop a sulcata into a swampy environment and proclaim, "Hey, lets see what happens to this poor tortoise..." It was a process. A process that took many years of observation of many situations all over the world. Many people were consulted and questioned and many tortoises were observed. Weather patterns were studied and many prior personal failures were carefully evaluated. Rare cases of success were also carefully evaluated. I knew what was going to happen before I ever did it, because I had seen it done before. I did not invent the concept of humidity and hydration for sulcatas, I simply joined a forum and told people about it. I also proceeded carefully at first as I'm sure the people who discovered the world was not flat did.

I know that your first paragraph is a general statement, but let me address it on a personal level. I do not want people to believe or do only what I say and disregard what anyone else says. I want people to do what works and disregard what does NOT work. I want them to NOT do things that we all know are detrimental. Detrimental things like raising sulcata hatchlings on rabbit pellets, under a hot light, with no water bowl and a diet of lettuce.
I could really not care less who gets credit for it, and I have no "God" complex as I have been accused in the past. I DO have an unhealthy obsession with figuring out and eliminating pyramiding in captive tortoises and sharing what I learn with anyone who will listen.

Further Hector, I appreciate and value your well thought out response and insight. Thank you.

Tom..I know you have the best interest of the animal in mind... You are very passionate in your beliefs..and I commend that... Wish the world was full of people that were passionate in there beliefs as you.. Rather than just going with the norm..Can you imagine where we would be today... So when I see someone blazing there own path I wish them the best.... Hopefully they will share there insight..

 

[Jacqui]

As a debate technique, this works. In the real world, I think not. Tell me it would not concern you to find your child sticking metal objects into plug receptacles even if you knew the power was off. Tell me you think its an okay thing to do as long as someone says the power is off...

No, it would not concern me to see my child sticking a metal object into an electrical outlet.


Now once more Tom has made a leap in his logic, that is actually proving once more to not be factual. For first off my youngest is 21 years old. He may be sticking something into the outlet to see if there is a current using a tester, which has metal ends to stick into that outlet. So I would have absolutely no concerns to find my child sticking a metal object into that plug.

 

[dmmj]

Considering the age of the photo does anyone else think johnny (if that is his real name) is dead?

 

[Tom]

As a debate technique, this works. In the real world, I think not. Tell me it would not concern you to find your child sticking metal objects into plug receptacles even if you knew the power was off. Tell me you think its an okay thing to do as long as someone says the power is off...

No, it would not concern me to see my child sticking a metal object into an electrical outlet.


Now once more Tom has made a leap in his logic, that is actually proving once more to not be factual. For first off my youngest is 21 years old. He may be sticking something into the outlet to see if there is a current using a tester, which has metal ends to stick into that outlet. So I would have absolutely no concerns to find my child sticking a metal object into that plug.

YOU ARE KILLING ME!!! I mean in a good way. THIS is why you are so valuable and good for this forum.

By the way, I just want you to know that I AGREED with you 100% on another thread. So there, TAKE THAT!

---

Considering the age of the photo does anyone else think johnny (if that is his real name) is dead?

If the outlet didn't get him, he's probably died of old age by now.

 

[jaizei]

Me: Jonny, I think that's a bad idea. You shouldn't do that.
Jonny: Why not?
Me: Because its very dangerous and you could get hurt.
Jonny: Well I've been doing it for along time and nothing bad has happened...
Me: Well you've been lucky so far, but that doesn't mean its not dangerous.
Jonny: How is it dangerous?
Me: Sticking a metal butter knife into a live electrical socket is dangerous. You could be shocked or electrocuted.
Jonny: But I have not been shocked or electrocuted yet, so you must be wrong and its NOT dangerous.
Me: I already said that you've just been lucky so far...
Jonny: Well that's your your unfounded opinion. Nothing but heresay. Can you show me scientific proof that this is dangerous? Do you even know how many volts or what the wattage of this outlet is? Maybe you are wrong and its not dangerous at all.
Me: No. I don't have any scientific studies to cite and I don't know EXACTLY what the voltage in THAT socket is, but I do have first hand experience with sticking a knife into a live socket, and let me tell you it was not pleasant. I'm lucky to be alive.
Jonny: Well there are many factors involved and just because it happened to you does not mean it will happen to everyone else. Maybe you just did it wrong.
Me: Look, even if there is some scientific proof out there, I don't know where it is or how to find it, but I do have a basic level of understanding of electricity and what it can do. Now I can't find 10 research papers to verify what I am telling you, but that does not mean it is not true. I recommend that you STOP doing that BEFORE you learn the hard way that what I am trying to tell you is true.
Jonny: Well you do it your way and I'll do it mine. Further, I'm going to go ahead and say that its just fine to everyone and continue to demonstrate that its just fine...

Etc., etc., etc...
I'm sure we can all guess how the story ends. Might take a few hours. Might take a month. But we know what's gonna happen. Well at least I know what's gonna happen.

Jonny actually seems quite reasonable. If you like, I'll go and stick a metal object into the nearest live outlet, and won't get hurt. Probably because I know a little more about electricity than you. Not grounded = no shock I would also suggest that you find that scientific proof before you act as though your opinion is fact.

There is a difference between pioneering something new based on the facts that you do know to try to figure out the rest, and doing something that will have a known and certain bad outcome.

The problem in the other thread was that the outcome wasn't necessarily known nor bad. Instead of telling us what 'pathogens from other continents' we had to worry about, you insulted and tried to big league us. I don't care who you are or who you know. You told us that you "MIGHT have seen and experienced some things" that we haven't, without elaborating. Unfortunately, "because Tom said so" isn't good enough for me. I want actual facts so that I may make an informed decision. Silly, I know, but I like to think for myself.

 

[wellington]

As frustrating as it gets Tom, don't forget there are some or a lot of us that have taken your advice and seen for ourselves the great results. We are listening, learning and trying to spread the word. You won't change everyones mind, it just isn't possible. Just keep learning, sharing and hoping that it all some day will change the lives of many if not all torts. I do feel you have the knowledge, proof, and passion. Not because you said so, but because of the results I have gotten following your way/results. There are always going to be some that think they know the way. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. As much as it bothers you that torts are being raised poorly, you can only keep spreading the word and showing your results. As for me, THANK YOU SO MUCH! I was raising Tatum according to the breeder/rescuer, etc., and he started to pyramid. I found your article, and asked you questions and now he is no longer pyramiding, except of course the small damage that was already done.

 

[Baoh]

This is a considerable amount of passive-aggressive effort. If only as much effort was applied to providing verifiable objective evidence or answering direct and specific questions, we might then achieve greater progress.

 

[Redstrike]

We should all read more books.

 

[Zamric]

I really like Brandon Sanderson. As a Fantasy Writer he's pretty good!

..... or did you mean more Toroise Husbandry books?

 

[Tony the tank]

I like Clive Cussler..

But to be honest..I like to wait for the movie..

 

[Zamric]

Clive Cussler is also a teriffic Writer.... Dirk is one of my favorite charactors!

 

[Tony the tank]

Clive Cussler is also a teriffic Writer.... Dirk is one of my favorite charactors!

I like all the characters, Dirk, Kurt and Juan ( Oregon files)

I'm reading his new book (Devils Gate) now...

 

[lynnedit]

I am relatively new to this forum, and have learned a lot. I try to pass along what I have learned that works... and there is usually more than one way. I think my torts are thriving because of this forum. Of course you have to sort through stuff, and apply it to your geographical area, etc.
However, I can honestly say that I have never put a knife into an electric outlet, and I would NOT do it if someone here told me to. Nope. Absolutely not.