A Recurring Issue

[Tom]

I keep having this problem. Yesterday somebody sent me this photo in one of those funny emails, and it made me think of a good way to illustrate my recurring issue. Let's call the boy in the picture "Jonny". My part will be played by "Me".
Here's the scene, dialogue to follow...

Me: Jonny, I think that's a bad idea. You shouldn't do that.
Jonny: Why not?
Me: Because its very dangerous and you could get hurt.
Jonny: Well I've been doing it for along time and nothing bad has happened...
Me: Well you've been lucky so far, but that doesn't mean its not dangerous.
Jonny: How is it dangerous?
Me: Sticking a metal butter knife into a live electrical socket is dangerous. You could be shocked or electrocuted.
Jonny: But I have not been shocked or electrocuted yet, so you must be wrong and its NOT dangerous.
Me: I already said that you've just been lucky so far...
Jonny: Well that's your your unfounded opinion. Nothing but heresay. Can you show me scientific proof that this is dangerous? Do you even know how many volts or what the wattage of this outlet is? Maybe you are wrong and its not dangerous at all.
Me: No. I don't have any scientific studies to cite and I don't know EXACTLY what the voltage in THAT socket is, but I do have first hand experience with sticking a knife into a live socket, and let me tell you it was not pleasant. I'm lucky to be alive.
Jonny: Well there are many factors involved and just because it happened to you does not mean it will happen to everyone else. Maybe you just did it wrong.
Me: Look, even if there is some scientific proof out there, I don't know where it is or how to find it, but I do have a basic level of understanding of electricity and what it can do. Now I can't find 10 research papers to verify what I am telling you, but that does not mean it is not true. I recommend that you STOP doing that BEFORE you learn the hard way that what I am trying to tell you is true.
Jonny: Well you do it your way and I'll do it mine. Further, I'm going to go ahead and say that its just fine to everyone and continue to demonstrate that its just fine...

Etc., etc., etc...
I'm sure we can all guess how the story ends. Might take a few hours. Might take a month. But we know what's gonna happen. Well at least I know what's gonna happen.

 

[dmarcus]

Luck runs out eventually, so it's best to not even do it...

 

[Zamric]

....Aaaahhhh but you fail to understand that Johny NEEDS to learn this lesson all on his own! There are LOT'S of Johnys out there and they only learn one way... from The School Of Hard Knocks... what you should do is take the knife away and give Johny a paperclip instead! I learned this paticular lesson with a screw driver and a light socket!

 

[Jacqui]

Of course what you fail to realize Tom is there is no electricity running into that outlet and Johny knows that. Sometimes just because you think you know something, doesn't mean that knowledge can be applied to all cases.

 

[dmmj]

Make the outlets look like bunnies, then make him terrified of bunnies.

 

[Yvonne G]

And while most people will read and learn from others' experiences, there are always some who have to learn on their own...even at the tortoise's expense.

 

[SulcataSquirt]

Jonny b DUMB! lol most little Jonnys and some big Jonnys always have to learn on their own. I have a few friends like that, I can tell them my experience with somthing but they are always like nahhhhh, then it happends to them.... never thought it could have.

 

[Jacqui]

Sometimes those "dumb" things and not listening to others, also may lead to big advances in our knowledge. Was not so long ago, Johny did not listen to all them folks who told him the world was flat and if he went too far, he would fall off it.... Then there was the famous, "Geesh Johny I tried to fly and I fell. Man is just not suppose to fly." Did Johny listen? No, he was brave enough to try it for himself. Then to take what he learned and try again. Finally Johny was able to fly. Boy sure glad not all Johnys are "dumb" enough to just follow the beaten path and folks who say, "You need to learn from me and never try for yourself". Guys sometimes not listening to others and learning from your own mistakes is not bad, sometimes it a marvelous thing.

 

[Laura]

Sometimes I just bite my tongue....

 

[Madkins007]

Learning is a pretty complicated thing. How we learn, what we learn from a given lesson, the best way to teach a given topic, etc. all are more complicated to answer than many people think.

I personally think forums are generally a poor way to learn or teach. The assumption of every new person on a site is that everyone at the site is roughly equal. Why should I take THAT person's advice over THIS one's? Why is HER opinion or experience more relevant than mine? Things get even harder when someone gets several pieces of apparently conflicting advice from the thread or other sources.

Forums are great for a lot of things- dealing with specific questions, sharing ideas, etc. but actually teaching to the point that they change their behaviors or beliefs is much harder in a place like this.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

But when someone lays all their credentials out there for everyone to see, then says "this is what I learned" I think most of us should learn from that person and listen to them. I don't think listen or follow blindly, but pay attention to that person. As an example, my sister taught me most of what I learned about chelonia keeping. And because I know how experienced she is I then took her opinions on as my own. It wasn't until years later I started to develop my own opinions. I didn't follow her advice about a couple of things and in both of those instances an animal got sick and almost died. I think it's important to learn from others experience.

 

[terryo]

I personally think forums are generally a poor way to learn or teach. The assumption of every new person on a site is that everyone at the site is roughly equal. Why should I take THAT person's advice over THIS one's? Why is HER opinion or experience more relevant than mine? Things get even harder when someone gets several pieces of apparently conflicting advice from the thread or other sources.


There are some people who have little or no confidence, and others who are overly confident. For the people who have little or no confidence, forums can be very confusing and frustrating way to learn, and leave them in tears....that was me when I got my first tortoise. The overly confident will always think they know better or their way is better, and wouldn't take anyone's advice no matter where they got it. We've all seen some babies die because of this. Now, the way I learn from forums is to take a little knowledge from each person I think is experienced and incorporate it and make it my own. Another thing...I would never (again) listen to anyone who doesn't have many years of hands on experience. These are the people I want to learn from. I also hate when someone tells me "this is the right way to do it". I'm only interested in your opinion and what has worked for you for many years. Oh crap....do I sound like Lil' Jonny? I hope not.

 

[wellington]

The best you can do is tell little jonny what you know and how and why you know and be done with it. Little jonny will have to do with it what he wants. I know a little jonny and after about 10 years, yes 10, I have given up. I now just say, to my little jonny, I don't know. I will still try to educate people about the things I know, but eventually, if they keep doing the same thing wrong, I will have to also answer them with the I don't know. Saves me headaches and friendships

 

[dmmj]

But, wait. I do know better and my way is better.

 

[Jacqui]

But, wait. I do know better and my way is better.

Of course it is David (pats David on the head while )

 

[Tony the tank]

Here is we're the conflicting information comes in...One person says "you can't believe everything thats written on the Internet" ... When the what they actually mean.."don't believe anything posted on the Internet unless I posted it"..Thus the confusion..

If anything an education teaches us is the ability to find information and apply it correctly...

For instance... The theory that sulcatas need a dry environment as youngsters to remain healthy.... Someone had to take the plunge and go against the norm..and actually test the theory of humidity being beneficial to young torts....That person took a gamble with the health of that Tort... And the gamble was correct...

I for one prefer facts to theory.....

But also let's not confuse the analogy... With the known danger of sticking a metal object in a socket... To someone refusing to change there husbandry techniques because someone on the Internet tells them or advises them of what might happen..

 

[dmmj]

wait I thought we were talking about light sockets?

 

[Tony the tank]

wait I thought we were talking about light sockets?

We are ..I'm just saying

 

[Tom]

Sometimes those "dumb" things and not listening to others, also may lead to big advances in our knowledge. Was not so long ago, Johny did not listen to all them folks who told him the world was flat and if he went too far, he would fall off it.... Then there was the famous, "Geesh Johny I tried to fly and I fell. Man is just not suppose to fly." Did Johny listen? No, he was brave enough to try it for himself. Then to take what he learned and try again. Finally Johny was able to fly. Boy sure glad not all Johnys are "dumb" enough to just follow the beaten path and folks who say, "You need to learn from me and never try for yourself". Guys sometimes not listening to others and learning from your own mistakes is not bad, sometimes it a marvelous thing.

This is a good point Jacqui, but somehow I do not equate Orville, Wilbur and Christopher with our little Jonny. There is a difference between pioneering something new based on the facts that you do know to try to figure out the rest, and doing something that will have a known and certain bad outcome.

 

[Tony the tank]

Sometimes those "dumb" things and not listening to others, also may lead to big advances in our knowledge. Was not so long ago, Johny did not listen to all them folks who told him the world was flat and if he went too far, he would fall off it.... Then there was the famous, "Geesh Johny I tried to fly and I fell. Man is just not suppose to fly." Did Johny listen? No, he was brave enough to try it for himself. Then to take what he learned and try again. Finally Johny was able to fly. Boy sure glad not all Johnys are "dumb" enough to just follow the beaten path and folks who say, "You need to learn from me and never try for yourself". Guys sometimes not listening to others and learning from your own mistakes is not bad, sometimes it a marvelous thing.

This is a good point Jacqui, but somehow I do not equate Orville, Wilbur and Christopher with our little Jonny. There is a difference between pioneering something new based on the facts that you do know to try to figure out the rest, and doing something that will have a known and certain bad outcome.

I believe they all had a Hypothesis..It later became a theory then fact..

If you have facts..the theory is tested..